Low Deck BB in Comp Elim?

Is this idea even worth discussing, or would it just be a totally futile effort? And yes, I know it would be expensive.

Stock 400 block or aftermarket ?

IMO not worth the effort as there are better platfroms to base a Comp deal on that are still Mopar. IE P5, 99/06 Hemi or even W8 stuff depending on the chassis you plan to use. Meaning an altered, dragster or Super Modified

The heads you have to use pale in comparison to the platforms that Al suggested. The Predator may come close, but the typical BBM architecture wouldn't be conducive to running over 10K rpm reliably.

About 25 years ago, a racer ran a 440 B1 combo in Super Stock (A/MS - Single cast 4brl intake, flat tappet camshaft) here in Australia. That thing was fast at the time, but ate up a lot of parts. I have not seen anyone race that combo since.

Whilst I think most of of like seeing something different, in this case, it's probably for good reason.

I'd also add the Dodge P7 head to Al's list. Both Slawko and CFE do unlimited N/A ports for them now

I would think an Australian Prostock engine could be pretty competitive in Comp elim.

Bob Book has customers running them

This is pretty cool.

https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/451-bbm.208444/

I was temped but bought my fuel injection stuff instead. That and Indy castings scare me LOL. If it was a KB block with some B1-MC's I might have dug a little deeper in the piggy bank.

Alan,

I have yet to see a P7 head in NHRA competition which ha surprised me.

I think but I don't know for sure, there is a Weber block that accepts them also.

Bill

A friend started building a A/EA engine years ago, but stopped because he didn't feel there would be any interest in them. The SB2.2 was starting to become popular in that class back then, the P7 is very similar, but the Mopar guys weren't interested back then it seems. Fear of the unknown I guess. Even now, most people running the R5 P7 platform are buying complete engines because they are relatively cheap.

The Ritter XR2 blocks were designed, as Kent and partners had a vast supply of ex Nascar parts. The XR1 (that is available now) was made from that casting. They are a tall deck (9.6 & 9.2"), not really something suited to Comp Eliminator. The R5 is 9"

We had a customer here that was trying the W8's in Comp, with about 306CI. Six or eight years ago. Spent tens of thousands on dyno time, weeks and weeks. The thing would make 750hp all day long with good spring life at 9500, but that's not going to get it done. Would just break 800 when you put the whip to it, but springs lasted less than 10 pulls. After getting frustrated and beating the head against the wall, did a complete fresh start, started with flowing the heads. They peaked in the 380's from what I recall, and that just wasn't competitive, nor was it what the porter promised. External events occurred and that project was shelved, was kind of a shame. S/F....Ken M

Both Scott McClay and Joe Mozeris have very completive Comp eliminator cars running W8 heads. I think McCay's is a 306, I am not sure the size of the Mozeris engine. Mozeirs won Comp at the Denver race this year and this daughter won Super Stock in a Daytona.

Comp is not for the faint of heart, neither is Super Stock, don't ask me how I know.

Alan,

So the Ritter XR2 blocks are not currently available?

Thanks,
Bill

Having had the conversation with Tom about the P7 stuff in Comp before i will rest on my previous statement. He said he can do them but not going to be competitive.

You do know one of the definition of a NHRA SS car is correct. That is a old drag race car you fill with $1000.00 bills to make it run fast, correct
if that is correct then a Comp Eliminator car would be one you fill up three time with $1000.00 bills to buy parts before starting to build it, correct

Scott McClay is running Rick Liuzzo's old engine and I believe car as well. It was a record setting combination in C/ED in the late 90's

Thank you Al, you saved me about $7K

Wouldn't slot of this depend on the class you intend to run the engine in? This is all theoretical thinking but a BB is going to be most competitive if the cubic inch is held below 360 cubic inches with the cylinder heads that are currently available. Obviously, I'm not an engine builder but my thought is you can size the bore such that the cylinder head ports can have proper air speeds and competitive flow for that particular bore size. That would mean custom crank and block, and long rods to make that work. As Al stated, there are more competitive and researched combos available. I think it would be interesting to see somebody run one in C/D, E-F/A, and a few of the wedge only super mod categories. I don't know if there is a Mopar part numbered head good enough to be run in any of the econo wedge head classes. Al, do you think the predator head would be more competitive at a smaller cubic inch(360-380ci)? Hopefully my thought process isn't too uneducated, just thinking out loud.

I know Rick went to the Winternationals in 2008 to help Scott with the car and said the engine was five years old at the time.

Long time ago but I think it was originally a 301 and they list 306 now, so at least it has been freshened up if not a new engine. No idea on the chassis.

Scotts, as well as joe and Kaylas stuff used to all be done by RWR. Seen alot of fast stuff pass through there. Pretty much all the W8 combos are small cube and one held the power per cube number until RWR was no more. They also did Lepones W8 and P5 stuff as well as alot of Aussie Pro Stock and tons of Comp stuff P5 stuff

As far as I know they are Bill, I'd be suprised if they weren't. Most people are buying the wedge block. I have one that I will be turning in to a coffee table, it was one of the prototype blocks that has some machining faults. I have another collecting dust in storage. I think you asked about the deck height on these in one of teh Facebook groups, I wouldn't deck them past the 9.2" mark. The one I have, if you decked it to 9.0", it would be in the water jackets.

Rick did one freshen for Scott, and referred him on to RWR, as he didn't want to do engines any more. Rick Watters built some very fast stuff, I recall him getting 985hp from a P5 headed 358, which was unhead of at the time. It was for the peanut farmers that ran the ex Pro Stock Truck, was it the Mettler brothers?

Do you know where Rick Watters ended up Al? Was it Elite Motorsports or someone like that?

Rick is currently employed by Chris McGaha and has been since closing the doors at RWR. He does everything from their Pro Stock stuff to their side by sides He built alot of P5 stuff for Comp and Aussie Pro Stock as well. Used to be all sorts of P5 stuff lying around the shop, like pallets of it. As for the Ritter blocks there are MANY war stories about the quality back then. The truck is the Mettler Brothers yes. Rick also worked with Mopar developing the entire PST operation while working for Patterson and then the Eatons. RWR was formerly Eaton, they sold the shop to Rick.

There main thing going against it would be the block deck height. Weight of reciprocating parts, the valve train design etc. A 99/06 Hemi has a 9.0" deck height. Most P5 stuff is down around 8.3" vs a 9.98" deck height for a B series block.
For the most part, the heads and induction system aren't particularly efficient, as you've mentioned, the Predator head is the only thing that would be close. The whole deal would be heavier than anything in it's class and make less power.

I remember when Eaton Enterprises were running, they were getting belt drives for R4's made (by Tom Huggins?), at the time Weber Belt drives were the only thing available. It's a shame RWR didn't keep his doors open, but running a business isn't for everyone I guess.

My apologies if I've gone on too much, I don't get to talk about Comp stuff very often, most of my friends have no interest in N/A racing

This is a cool thread. I have enyoed it. High RPM comp motors are cool!

Does Rick do any outside work at Southwest Performance?

I sent them an email about some dyno time and never got a response.

Yes this has been a fun thread, thank you Alan and Al for all the info.

No I dont believe they do any outside work, unless you are a friend of the family.

Always happy to talk NA stuff. The Vette is basically an old Aussie Pro Stock Type engine. Well except the single 4, wet sump, alternator, and backed by a proflite

It's a Little Chief engine Al?

Yes it is although the heads are a long way from where they started It runs well for what it is for sure. Smallish intake valve compared to many we race against back east. We did manage to set the Irwindale track record by a tenth and win the last WCNA10.5 race there. But we hurt a piston in the process, its a fuel thing which we are remedying now.

You're still allowed to run leaded race fuel over there? We can only run Unleaded over here now. Most guys are running either VP or ETS race fuel from what I have seen.

Yes, no problems getting leaded race fuel in the US yet....

Yep still leaded race fuel over here. We just run a highly oxygenated variety. It has a very small tuning window and has bit us for the second and last time.

So, moving onward and upward with the N/A discussion, how does one determine the correct intake port size per engine cubic inch size? Talking again Comp Elim motors. I'm thinking a marginal set of heads on a big motor would be more than adequate for a smaller motor. There must be some parameters that put you in the ballpark?

I have a spreadsheet that tells me the appropriate minimum cross section required. Pipe Max is also very helpful in this regard.

Some engine builder or cylinder head guys will just do the math.

That is just going to be the starting point though. Darin Morgan described himself as a velocity manager, rather than a cylinder head designer. I thought that was very apt.

As we are talking hyperthetically here, if you were wanting to use a BBM style head casting as an example, you would be trying to get a pro port style casting (very small ports, no guide work or chambers), or doing a lot of welding.

As stated PipeMax is a good start but wouldn't not call it a be all end all for a comp deal, Having said that it was designed by a guy who has built a lot of record holding and championship winning Comp stuff, Larry Meaux. He also built the Hemi I have lying in the garage that I would love to rehome. For us we rely on someone with years of experience with this stuff. In our case its Tom Slawko and Dave Hughes.

Al, I'm not even sure what the 99/06 Hemi engine is, or what it's based on. I assume the Pro Stock motors that were being ran by V. Gaines, Derek Kramer, etc? Are parts still available for those combos? I occasionally see some of those engines for sale. For arguments sake, we would be looking at Econo Dragster or Econo Altered.

Also, saw Scott McClay at the November race in Pomona, he qualified 12th, was .54 under the index, was Comp Elim runner-up.

99/06 Hemi is the pro stockstuff. And parts on not as easy to come by as they were at one time. D7 has a couple of them competitng on occasion still. Usually in the lower 499" range. There is also the P5 stuff which was pro stock truck stuff and its even harder to come by, and is a SB. Scott Mcclay runs a W8 small block as does the Mozeris family.

Has anyone built a over 400" P7 motor making over 1K Horsepower?
I also saw Scott Gove SS/AM Daytona has a X comp motor in it which looks like a hemi small block. Not sure what it is but he has been in the 7's consistently now and holds the record as well. ,.

Last I knew Scott Gove was running a R4/P5 motor about 358 CI. I saw one of his engines being freshen up at Patterson-Elite a few years ago.

It is fast.

I think Ritter makes a block that will accept P7 heads, might be able to get over 400 ci with it. I think with the R5 short deck block it would be tough but don't know for sure.

What particular class are you thinking about?

I don't think anyone has attempted it. Any of the larger cube XR2 or Ernie Elliot block based P7 deals I have seen have been power adder combinations. I am in Australia, so I wouldn't see any where near the cars you guys would.

The Ritter blocks were designed primarily for the P7 head, the wedge head option was made to work with the casting. Either way, they come in 9.6" or decked down to 9.2"

As has been mentioned, Slawko and CFE have programs for the P7 head, where they shift the intake valve etc. I think any decent shop with experience in SB2.2 heads would be able to tackle a set of P7s. They won't out perform a P5 head.

A W8 engine can make over 1000 with a single 4 barrel intake, the P7 is a better head IMO

It would most likely be a Econo Altered or possibly Econo Dragster, a full-chassis type car that is easier to work on.

Came across this in-car vid by chance yesterday and thought it would be a nice addition to this thread

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8fBmAqpSBI

High RPM =high maintenance and costs
Their ain't nothing cheap about NHRA class racing, especially Comp Eliminator

Comp Eliminator is one of the few areas in Drag Racing left that is still innovative. It takes a certain type of person to race in the class.

The red Vette sees that RPM, these days those little engine like those of Warter 10,500 is on the short side. Ours is 400" and sees that RPM. Still hang around alot of comp stuff and most of the fast smallish stuff is 11,000+

Al, if you don't mind. Could you detail the ?525"? ?B1 MC? that you ran last in the Cuda? What kinda RPM and cam? Of course, that was a respectable piece considering the parts used.