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Re: 500 Inch Gen III will be possible soon.
[Re: Ray408G3Hemi]
#2996658
12/19/21 09:12 AM
12/19/21 09:12 AM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 403
Romulus, MI
GTS340
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 403
Romulus, MI
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4.460 bore center minus 4.250 bore leaves .210 between bores. Not good unless its already a siamese bore block. Even then its pushing it. Darton offered sleeves for a 6.1 for a while but I know it wasn't 4.250 bore. Ric3xrt has been doing LS and R5 sleeves in to the BGE and 6.1 blocks since 2016....finally some one else caught on Dartons 6.1 M.I.D sleeves were designed to go 4.155, which leaves .192 of wall left. A few years back Ric had one with the Darton mid system, bored to 4.25 , leaves .145 of cylinder wall left , the test mule ran a real short stroke, was between 389-392CI. ran 6.5XX length rods , Idea was to keep the side load down , block had a little bit of hard block to help keep it stiff. I know he's done 2 or 3 with a 4.20 bore and 4.25 stroke, once with a 4.30. and one with a 4.40 winberg crank , the 516ci mule is a billet block with a 4.40 winberg The Darton LS2/3/7 will work, need to trim the bottom , with the LS sleeve you have more side wall left, .220 if I remember @4.20 bore , I know at his old job they did a few 4.32 bore LS7s with the Darton sleeve and 1 G3 BGE 4.32 bore , paper thin wall , jacket was full of hard block. Were they Darton MID sleeves for LS2/3/7?? If so what did they do to accommodate the difference in bore spacing? LS has 4.400 bore spacing, so at 4.32 bore that leaves .08 between bores, .040 wall thickness per sleeve, what did they do for head gaskets in this type of build? Yes Darton LS2/3/7 sleeves, I asked once about bore spacing , his reply is ," you just move it to what you need silly" , with the M.I.D system your basically cutting the deck out of the block, the end result is a piston guided thrust set up, 4.5 bore spacing Billet Canted valve head There were doing it for years with SBC's before the 4.5BS and 4.6BS blocks came out, When I picked up my 488 he had a 4.5 space SB2 headed 454 there Head gasket, I keep getting this cheep Chinese accent and the quote" Ancient top fuel secret" , so I'm thinking copper gasket and "O" ring deal. Asked him why can't we do it to a G3 and he said , "You cut the check and I'll get it done".....hence my 488 I just picked up. 4.25X4.30 , Crank is a Winberg, Thitek heads BAM 3.5inch long lifters and Jesel Rocker system. cam is in the low .800s lift want to do a Holly hi Ram but the 2x4 top doesn't fit under the cowl of the truck, so drag pak it is. I know what the dyno says, but I'm keeping that to myself till I get some runs on the truck, will see if the track times get close to the dyno #s right now my best was a 9.59 with the 463 , that was the run that the camshaft snapped on ,right behind the 1st journal. hopping for low 9s maybe crack an 8.99. with the 488. So they just leave a .060 water gap between the 2 sleeves when using LS MID sleeves in a G3?
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Re: 500 Inch Gen III will be possible soon.
[Re: GTS340]
#2996706
12/19/21 12:23 PM
12/19/21 12:23 PM
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Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 194
Springtown Pa
Ray408G3Hemi
member
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member
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 194
Springtown Pa
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So they just leave a .060 water gap between the 2 sleeves when using LS MID sleeves in a G3?
Honestly I don't know, He left for Germany last night and will be there till mid Jan, I can ask him when he's state side again I know on the LS applications the Sleeves are milled on the side so they can "siamese" bore, I don't see why he wouldn't do the same with the G3 ,
1963 Thunderbolt 496FE 10.80 (still a work in progress)
1968 Mustang slow a$$ 428 FE
1971 Boss 351 Mustang 11.20@115mph
1993 Lightning 10.61 @ 129mph 408Ci A3 headed NA
1996 Viper GTS
2001 Lightning 8.99 @ 155MPH 5.4 Mod Motor
2009 Ram 9.65@144MPH 463CI G3 NA
2010 Challenger 9.91 @ 139MPH 408CI G3ci NA
2019 F150 (local dealer's Lightning package) ..11.90s
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Re: 500 Inch Gen III will be possible soon.
[Re: Ray408G3Hemi]
#2996711
12/19/21 12:46 PM
12/19/21 12:46 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 403
Romulus, MI
GTS340
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 403
Romulus, MI
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So they just leave a .060 water gap between the 2 sleeves when using LS MID sleeves in a G3?
Honestly I don't know, He left for Germany last night and will be there till mid Jan, I can ask him when he's state side again I know on the LS applications the Sleeves are milled on the side so they can "siamese" bore, I don't see why he wouldn't do the same with the G3 , Yes, the surface that meets an adjacent sleeve is flatted and designed to nest against that sleeve with the flat. When adding .060 to the borespacing there would be a gap between the flats when the LS kit is installed in a Hemi. Just curious how they worked around it. RTV? Weld?
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Re: 500 Inch Gen III will be possible soon.
[Re: GTS340]
#2996923
12/20/21 07:05 AM
12/20/21 07:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,400
Trumbauersville PA
ric3xrt
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,400
Trumbauersville PA
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We don’t mill the flats,we trim the length to fit , when theses are in a stock LS block you essentially turn it in to a 4.46 BS, I milled the sides of the sleeve once for a street build last sleeves in a 6.1 block, had . 100 between the sleeves.
Truth has no agenda, but those with an agenda make their own truth.
Some of us are so open minded they only see their View
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Re: 500 Inch Gen III will be possible soon.
[Re: ric3xrt]
#3007788
01/22/22 09:32 AM
01/22/22 09:32 AM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 403
Romulus, MI
GTS340
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 403
Romulus, MI
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We don’t mill the flats,we trim the length to fit , when theses are in a stock LS block you essentially turn it in to a 4.46 BS, I milled the sides of the sleeve once for a street build last sleeves in a 6.1 block, had . 100 between the sleeves. Any pictures? After reading the instructions for the Darton MID LS sleeves and the Darton LS dry sleeves they both recommend maintaining a bore center dimension of 4.400 +/-.0005 What Darton part number did you use in the Hemi blocks?
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Re: 500 Inch Gen III will be possible soon.
[Re: Dragula]
#3015576
02/15/22 12:58 AM
02/15/22 12:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,180
Detroit, MI
CokeBottleKid
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,180
Detroit, MI
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Dart had an unfinished block on display at PRI. Looked pretty stout. Only thing I didn't like was it had Chevy style 4 bolt main caps. The #2,3,4 were splayed outer bolts with no side bolts. Unless it was a prototype I don't see why they wouldn't do the bottom end like a KB block. The architecture is already there. AFR and Muscle Motor Extreme are coming out with heads. Was hoping for someone else to come out with rockers but did not see anything new. Jesel and T&D.
Goes back to Steve Morris.....He is of the same thinking in that the 90* cross bolts the KB blocks use do little against the direction of the load on the caps.I think you will see more aftermarket blocks like this as they have proven good to +2khp already... The OEMs beg to differ, and they have alot more actual Engineering behind their decisions.
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Re: 500 Inch Gen III will be possible soon.
[Re: CokeBottleKid]
#3015772
02/15/22 08:14 PM
02/15/22 08:14 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,838
NW Indiana
fbs63
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,838
NW Indiana
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Dart had an unfinished block on display at PRI. Looked pretty stout. Only thing I didn't like was it had Chevy style 4 bolt main caps. The #2,3,4 were splayed outer bolts with no side bolts. Unless it was a prototype I don't see why they wouldn't do the bottom end like a KB block. The architecture is already there. AFR and Muscle Motor Extreme are coming out with heads. Was hoping for someone else to come out with rockers but did not see anything new. Jesel and T&D.
Goes back to Steve Morris.....He is of the same thinking in that the 90* cross bolts the KB blocks use do little against the direction of the load on the caps.I think you will see more aftermarket blocks like this as they have proven good to +2khp already... The OEMs beg to differ, and they have alot more actual Engineering behind their decisions. Exactly! There's a reason why Ls and others have 4 bolt main caps with side bolts. Thats the bottom end design that SHOULD be in Darts block.
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Re: 500 Inch Gen III will be possible soon.
[Re: fbs63]
#3016455
02/18/22 09:28 AM
02/18/22 09:28 AM
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 112
Michigan
ghinmi
member
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member
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 112
Michigan
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Dart had an unfinished block on display at PRI. Looked pretty stout. Only thing I didn't like was it had Chevy style 4 bolt main caps. The #2,3,4 were splayed outer bolts with no side bolts. Unless it was a prototype I don't see why they wouldn't do the bottom end like a KB block. The architecture is already there. AFR and Muscle Motor Extreme are coming out with heads. Was hoping for someone else to come out with rockers but did not see anything new. Jesel and T&D.
Goes back to Steve Morris.....He is of the same thinking in that the 90* cross bolts the KB blocks use do little against the direction of the load on the caps.I think you will see more aftermarket blocks like this as they have proven good to +2khp already... The OEMs beg to differ, and they have alot more actual Engineering behind their decisions. Exactly! There's a reason why Ls and others have 4 bolt main caps with side bolts. Thats the bottom end design that SHOULD be in Darts block. The OEMs place different value on certain design considerations than racers. The cross bolts aren't to support the caps, they're to tie the sides of the relatively flimsy stock block together. It allows a lighter, less costly block as well as other benefits. On a good aftermarket block, material use (cost) is less of a concern and the block is beefed up, not needing the cross bolted caps to improve rigidity. This is where the superior clamping and locating ability of the splayed 4 bolt caps sitting in a register shines.
1975 Jeep Cherokee compound turbo 5.7 Hemi/6 speed AutoX/Drag/Street.
9.97 @ 140 slicks, 10.74 in autox trim
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Re: 500 Inch Gen III will be possible soon.
[Re: CokeBottleKid]
#3017149
02/20/22 03:38 PM
02/20/22 03:38 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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Dart had an unfinished block on display at PRI. Looked pretty stout. Only thing I didn't like was it had Chevy style 4 bolt main caps. The #2,3,4 were splayed outer bolts with no side bolts. Unless it was a prototype I don't see why they wouldn't do the bottom end like a KB block. The architecture is already there. AFR and Muscle Motor Extreme are coming out with heads. Was hoping for someone else to come out with rockers but did not see anything new. Jesel and T&D.
Goes back to Steve Morris.....He is of the same thinking in that the 90* cross bolts the KB blocks use do little against the direction of the load on the caps.I think you will see more aftermarket blocks like this as they have proven good to +2khp already... The OEMs beg to differ, and they have alot more actual Engineering behind their decisions. They might have more data, but is it relevant? I mean these blocks are going to go way past any production Hp levels, so data at 500hp isn't really a factor at 1500hp. I have no data myself, but guys that blow these things up at that level.....They would know best at what holds together.
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