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Re: Torque Conv runout
[Re: 73DAD]
#2990267
11/29/21 07:59 PM
11/29/21 07:59 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,076
Michigan
A727Tflite
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,076
Michigan
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With that much RO you would wipe the bushing out pretty quick.
Bolting it to the flex plate like that likely pulled the impeller out of alignment.
Shade tree method is stick a crank in a block and stand it up, lay the crank in then check it that way.
The fixture we used to check runout actually looked like a flywheel.
The converter piloted in the “flywheel” then the converter lugs rested on the “flywheel”.
All the checks where made on this fixture.
Last edited by Transman; 11/29/21 09:20 PM.
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Re: Torque Conv runout
[Re: 73DAD]
#2990292
11/29/21 09:22 PM
11/29/21 09:22 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,173
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,173
Bend,OR USA
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The converter centers off of the converter hub in the crankshaft, not the flexpalte  You could have it chucked up in a lathe and then measure it that way. I had one used "race" converter I bought and used years ago, it would leak revving the motor above 3000 RPM but not leak at idle up to 3000 RPM, ended up The converter hub had right at .0015 run out measured in a lathe, had it repaired, they cut it out and replace it, and it never leak again 
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Torque Conv runout
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2990355
11/30/21 12:21 AM
11/30/21 12:21 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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I thought the max run out was like . 004 if I remember right... I'll have to look at my books  More than .004”. .004 might have been the min and up to .008 as the max.. thought I remember seeing that spec either in one of my trans books or one of my chassis books
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Re: Torque Conv runout
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2990478
11/30/21 01:24 PM
11/30/21 01:24 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,110
Byron, NY
W.I.N. Racing
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,110
Byron, NY
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The converter centers off of the converter hub in the crankshaft, not the flexpalte You could have it chucked up in a lathe and then measure it that way. 
'01 P1500, Blown/Inj BAE,/Veney ,Bruno/CS2,Dana 60
'01 Dodge 3500 S Cummins Auto, Fresh air kit, 4" Exhaust,
'05 Dodge Magnum R/T - Too Much to list
'60 Willys CJ5
'01 International LPX - Project,DT466, Allison
'64 Plymouth Valiant, Inj 528 Hemi, 2spd
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Re: Torque Conv runout
[Re: W.I.N. Racing]
#2990511
11/30/21 02:45 PM
11/30/21 02:45 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,076
Michigan
A727Tflite
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,076
Michigan
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The converter centers off of the converter hub in the crankshaft, not the flexpalte You could have it chucked up in a lathe and then measure it that way. You would be lucky to get an accurate measurement in a lathe. Like I said earlier you need to support the lugs while piloting the front cover hub. The hub establishes the centerline but the flexplate can affect impeller runout.
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Re: Torque Conv runout
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2990517
11/30/21 02:53 PM
11/30/21 02:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,791
Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,791
Rio Linda, CA
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It's called a flexplate for a reason.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: Torque Conv runout
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#2990528
11/30/21 03:31 PM
11/30/21 03:31 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,405
north of coder
moparx
"Butt Crack Bob"
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"Butt Crack Bob"
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,405
north of coder
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now from my cobweb filled back room......... wasn't the original transmission in any combination machined for the front pump bore, attached to the original engine it was mated to ? or is this just something that came to me in a dream ?  i believe this is why a guy should measure the run-out of the crank center line to the front pump center line, then correct with offset dowels. 
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Re: Torque Conv runout
[Re: moparx]
#2990562
11/30/21 04:56 PM
11/30/21 04:56 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,076
Michigan
A727Tflite
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,076
Michigan
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now from my cobweb filled back room......... wasn't the original transmission in any combination machined for the front pump bore, attached to the original engine it was mated to ? or is this just something that came to me in a dream ? i believe this is why a guy should measure the run-out of the crank center line to the front pump center line, then correct with offset dowels. You are close but wrong transmission type. Manual transmissions had the bellhousing bore machined on the block and kept together with the engine through the whole process. If you have issues with breaking flexplates and taking out pump bushings, yes, check pump bore and face runout. While the flexplate accommodates for some misalignment when it gets excessive it can cause both issues. High but within spec misalignment added to high impeller runout is going to cause issues. We had issues in production of breaking driveplates. It was found to be caused by workers on the line installing and tightening the first converter bolt instead of installing them loosely by hand then tightening them. This pulled the converter out of alignment. Yes, the flexplate does flex but it also has the potential to pull the converter out of alignment if the bolts are not installed correctly. Most guys get by because all the misalignment in the system is usually less than needed to cause problems.
Last edited by Transman; 11/30/21 05:08 PM.
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Re: Torque Conv runout
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2990779
12/01/21 09:22 AM
12/01/21 09:22 AM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 313
Northeast Indiana
73DAD
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 313
Northeast Indiana
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now from my cobweb filled back room......... wasn't the original transmission in any combination machined for the front pump bore, attached to the original engine it was mated to ? or is this just something that came to me in a dream ? i believe this is why a guy should measure the run-out of the crank center line to the front pump center line, then correct with offset dowels. You are close but wrong transmission type. Manual transmissions had the bellhousing bore machined on the block and kept together with the engine through the whole process. If you have issues with breaking flexplates and taking out pump bushings, yes, check pump bore and face runout. While the flexplate accommodates for some misalignment when it gets excessive it can cause both issues. High but within spec misalignment added to high impeller runout is going to cause issues. We had issues in production of breaking driveplates. It was found to be caused by workers on the line installing and tightening the first converter bolt instead of installing them loosely by hand then tightening them. This pulled the converter out of alignment. Yes, the flexplate does flex but it also has the potential to pull the converter out of alignment if the bolts are not installed correctly. Most guys get by because all the misalignment in the system is usually less than needed to cause problems. Thanks for your input on this thread. We did correct another issue that may have caused a problem. There was a large ridge on the crank flange that wasn't allowing the flexplate to sit flush. Tightening the flange bolts put about a .030" wobble in the plate. That problem has been corrected. The converter that was pulled from the car was worn where it rides on the bushing/bearing in the trans. Its down to 1.869" and the wear is not concentric. This is why we were trying to measure runout in the first place. I'm thinking the crank flange issue contributed to the abnormal wear. Also, I wish I could say with certainty that I tightened the flexplate-to-converter bolts properly but I can't be certain. To get the car back on the ground and mobile, I've decided to put my spare 727 and another converter into the car.
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Re: Torque Conv runout
[Re: 73DAD]
#2990781
12/01/21 09:27 AM
12/01/21 09:27 AM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,076
Michigan
A727Tflite
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,076
Michigan
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now from my cobweb filled back room......... wasn't the original transmission in any combination machined for the front pump bore, attached to the original engine it was mated to ? or is this just something that came to me in a dream ? i believe this is why a guy should measure the run-out of the crank center line to the front pump center line, then correct with offset dowels. You are close but wrong transmission type. Manual transmissions had the bellhousing bore machined on the block and kept together with the engine through the whole process. If you have issues with breaking flexplates and taking out pump bushings, yes, check pump bore and face runout. While the flexplate accommodates for some misalignment when it gets excessive it can cause both issues. High but within spec misalignment added to high impeller runout is going to cause issues. We had issues in production of breaking driveplates. It was found to be caused by workers on the line installing and tightening the first converter bolt instead of installing them loosely by hand then tightening them. This pulled the converter out of alignment. Yes, the flexplate does flex but it also has the potential to pull the converter out of alignment if the bolts are not installed correctly. Most guys get by because all the misalignment in the system is usually less than needed to cause problems. Thanks for your input on this thread. We did correct another issue that may have caused a problem. There was a large ridge on the crank flange that wasn't allowing the flexplate to sit flush. Tightening the flange bolts put about a .030" wobble in the plate. That problem has been corrected. The converter that was pulled from the car was worn where it rides on the bushing/bearing in the trans. Its down to 1.869" and the wear is not concentric. This is why we were trying to measure runout in the first place. I'm thinking the crank flange issue contributed to the abnormal wear. Also, I wish I could say with certainty that I tightened the flexplate-to-converter bolts properly but I can't be certain. To get the car back on the ground and mobile, I've decided to put my spare 727 and another converter into the car. Glad you found your problem. Like I said earlier the flexplate can influence things more than some people think.
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Re: Torque Conv runout
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2990894
12/01/21 03:32 PM
12/01/21 03:32 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,173
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,173
Bend,OR USA
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All converter welding machines use the front cover pilot AND the impeller to hold things aligned to a common centerline when welding the converter together.
At least the good welders do. I’ve seen guys do it in a lathe but the results are usually way out of spec.
What do they do when installing the impeller into the back half of the converter cover?
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Torque Conv runout
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2990908
12/01/21 03:52 PM
12/01/21 03:52 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,076
Michigan
A727Tflite
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,076
Michigan
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All converter welding machines use the front cover pilot AND the impeller to hold things aligned to a common centerline when welding the converter together.
At least the good welders do. I’ve seen guys do it in a lathe but the results are usually way out of spec.
What do they do when installing the impeller into the back half of the converter cover? All the processes developed and used at Chrysler and their suppliers pilot the front cover using the pilot and lug faces, then the impeller and hub are brought down to get zero stator endplay then the cover is then pulled up to achieve desired end play. While stationary the welder then makes spot welds around the converter to hold in place. The welder then rotates converter while welding. Can you do it in a lathe? Yes. But not when building significant quantities for production. You are an old timer. Ever weld a driveshaft together using angle iron and a protractor or bubble? The machines used in our Reman processes are something like this with more bells and whistles - and controls. 
Last edited by Transman; 12/01/21 03:55 PM.
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