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Re: Vibratory tumbler [Re: NITROUSN] #2931195
06/08/21 09:56 AM
06/08/21 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by NITROUSN
I don't get what the weight does or has on these tumblers. The one I have the basket is oscillated on rubber cushions. All the motor does is spinning an offset weight to make the basket oscillate. The motor is on its own and knows nothing about the weight in the basket.


My thinking, there are a few constants and a few variables in a "typical" vibrator system. The motor (excitor) hp and speed is fixed, the weight of the container is fixed, the imbalance weight and geometry is fixed, and the suspension/damping system is fixed. A;ll these constants determine a fixed oscillation resonance frequency of the unit. The variables are the weight ( I suspect size here doesn't matter much here) of the item(s) being processed, the weight of the media, the weight and viscosity of any process lubricant, and time. Combined Weight directly effects the frequency of the process, heavier being a lower frequency (meaning weight matters, how much is dependent mainly on available hp to overcome the above factors), based on the factors noted above. Condition, shape, etc of the parts being processed and the media and its size would be the last considerations. Did I miss anything?

Reminds of car tuning, everything effects everything else. biggrin

Last edited by jcc; 06/08/21 09:57 AM.

If you can't dazzle them with diamonds, don't waste your time, because nothing will
Re: Vibratory tumbler [Re: jcc] #2931215
06/08/21 10:47 AM
06/08/21 10:47 AM
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Stuttgart, Arkansas
rickseeman Offline
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Originally Posted by jcc
Originally Posted by NITROUSN
I don't get what the weight does or has on these tumblers. The one I have the basket is oscillated on rubber cushions. All the motor does is spinning an offset weight to make the basket oscillate. The motor is on its own and knows nothing about the weight in the basket.


My thinking, there are a few constants and a few variables in a "typical" vibrator system. The motor (excitor) hp and speed is fixed, the weight of the container is fixed, the imbalance weight and geometry is fixed, and the suspension/damping system is fixed. A;ll these constants determine a fixed oscillation resonance frequency of the unit. The variables are the weight ( I suspect size here doesn't matter much here) of the item(s) being processed, the weight of the media, the weight and viscosity of any process lubricant, and time. Combined Weight directly effects the frequency of the process, heavier being a lower frequency (meaning weight matters, how much is dependent mainly on available hp to overcome the above factors), based on the factors noted above. Condition, shape, etc of the parts being processed and the media and its size would be the last considerations. Did I miss anything?

Reminds of car tuning, everything effects everything else. biggrin


The only thing that you normally adjust is the amount of weights on the motor. If you are using steel media at 300 lbs per cubic foot you will have to have more weights on the motor than if you were using ceramic media at 85 lbs per cu ft.


2011 Drag Pak Challenger
Re: Vibratory tumbler [Re: rickseeman] #2931261
06/08/21 01:18 PM
06/08/21 01:18 PM
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My point is the basket and motor are totally independent. Neither knows what the other is doing. Unless I change the motors operation by making it work harder it should not be affected by basket weight. The only difference I can relate to is time. More material the longer the run time for desired results. Unless I can physically load the motor which I can not the basket weight should have no affect on the motors life.

Re: Vibratory tumbler [Re: jcc] #2931295
06/08/21 02:17 PM
06/08/21 02:17 PM
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North Dakota
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Originally Posted by jcc
Originally Posted by NITROUSN
I don't get what the weight does or has on these tumblers. The one I have the basket is oscillated on rubber cushions. All the motor does is spinning an offset weight to make the basket oscillate. The motor is on its own and knows nothing about the weight in the basket.


My thinking, there are a few constants and a few variables in a "typical" vibrator system. The motor (excitor) hp and speed is fixed, the weight of the container is fixed, the imbalance weight and geometry is fixed, and the suspension/damping system is fixed. A;ll these constants determine a fixed oscillation resonance frequency of the unit. The variables are the weight ( I suspect size here doesn't matter much here) of the item(s) being processed, the weight of the media, the weight and viscosity of any process lubricant, and time. Combined Weight directly effects the frequency of the process, heavier being a lower frequency (meaning weight matters, how much is dependent mainly on available hp to overcome the above factors), based on the factors noted above. Condition, shape, etc of the parts being processed and the media and its size would be the last considerations. Did I miss anything?

Reminds of car tuning, everything effects everything else. biggrin


I don't think that changes in weight will affect frequency as that is a function of motor/drive speed. But I do think that more mass means more inertia. For a given amount of energy being supplied to the "tub" by the drive, as mass (and inertia) increases the less the tub will move with each cycle with the corresponding reduction in cleaning peformance.

So....as the mass (inertia) increases you have to supply more energy and you do that with more offset weight.


Wife says too many cars, liquidation coming soon......
Re: Vibratory tumbler [Re: 6PakBee] #2931298
06/08/21 02:26 PM
06/08/21 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by 6PakBee
Originally Posted by jcc
Originally Posted by NITROUSN
I don't get what the weight does or has on these tumblers. The one I have the basket is oscillated on rubber cushions. All the motor does is spinning an offset weight to make the basket oscillate. The motor is on its own and knows nothing about the weight in the basket.


My thinking, there are a few constants and a few variables in a "typical" vibrator system. The motor (excitor) hp and speed is fixed, the weight of the container is fixed, the imbalance weight and geometry is fixed, and the suspension/damping system is fixed. A;ll these constants determine a fixed oscillation resonance frequency of the unit. The variables are the weight ( I suspect size here doesn't matter much here) of the item(s) being processed, the weight of the media, the weight and viscosity of any process lubricant, and time. Combined Weight directly effects the frequency of the process, heavier being a lower frequency (meaning weight matters, how much is dependent mainly on available hp to overcome the above factors), based on the factors noted above. Condition, shape, etc of the parts being processed and the media and its size would be the last considerations. Did I miss anything?

Reminds of car tuning, everything effects everything else. biggrin


I don't think that changes in weight will affect frequency as that is a function of motor/drive speed. But I do think that more mass means more inertia. For a given amount of energy being supplied to the "tub" by the drive, as mass (and inertia) increases the less the tub will move with each cycle with the corresponding reduction in cleaning peformance.

So....as the mass (inertia) increases you have to supply more energy and you do that with more offset weight.


I didn't put the BBs in for weight, they just bounce all around gently removing rust and dirt. I could throw all my transmission bolts and small parts and such in and an hour later they would all be clean and rust free it they weren't too bad, in the mean time I could re-build clutch packs and stuff and all the little things would be ready to start putting it back together when I am done with the other parts.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Vibratory tumbler [Re: HotRodDave] #2931324
06/08/21 03:28 PM
06/08/21 03:28 PM
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Hamilton, Ontario Canada
Magnum Offline OP
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Eastwood was another relatively cheap one with many bad reviews. I guess what interested me in this tool is the price of the cheap ones.
If a good one is over $1000. I will continue to sand blast and brush my parts. Mostly bolts and brackets.


69 Super Bee, 93 Mustang LX, 04 Allure Super
Re: Vibratory tumbler [Re: 6PakBee] #2931329
06/08/21 03:36 PM
06/08/21 03:36 PM
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Quote
I don't think that changes in weight will affect frequency as that is a function of motor/drive speed. But I do think that more mass means more inertia. For a given amount of energy being supplied to the "tub" by the drive, as mass (and inertia) increases the less the tub will move with each cycle with the corresponding reduction in cleaning peformance.

So....as the mass (inertia) increases you have to supply more energy and you do that with more offset weight.


I can understand how moving or adding weight would make the motor work harder. However on mine you are changing nothing to make the motor work harder. It just spins and causes the bowl to jiggle.

Re: Vibratory tumbler [Re: 6PakBee] #2931491
06/08/21 10:45 PM
06/08/21 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by 6PakBee
Originally Posted by jcc
Originally Posted by NITROUSN
I don't get what the weight does or has on these tumblers. The one I have the basket is oscillated on rubber cushions. All the motor does is spinning an offset weight to make the basket oscillate. The motor is on its own and knows nothing about the weight in the basket.


My thinking, there are a few constants and a few variables in a "typical" vibrator system. The motor (excitor) hp and speed is fixed, the weight of the container is fixed, the imbalance weight and geometry is fixed, and the suspension/damping system is fixed. A;ll these constants determine a fixed oscillation resonance frequency of the unit. The variables are the weight ( I suspect size here doesn't matter much here) of the item(s) being processed, the weight of the media, the weight and viscosity of any process lubricant, and time. Combined Weight directly effects the frequency of the process, heavier being a lower frequency (meaning weight matters, how much is dependent mainly on available hp to overcome the above factors), based on the factors noted above. Condition, shape, etc of the parts being processed and the media and its size would be the last considerations. Did I miss anything?

Reminds of car tuning, everything effects everything else. biggrin


I don't think that changes in weight will affect frequency as that is a function of motor/drive speed. But I do think that more mass means more inertia. For a given amount of energy being supplied to the "tub" by the drive, as mass (and inertia) increases the less the tub will move with each cycle with the corresponding reduction in cleaning peformance.

So....as the mass (inertia) increases you have to supply more energy and you do that with more offset weight.


The main thing I think you are overlooking above is these systems are not free weights, ie no friction, no dampening. They are sprung in one fashion or another, and as the weight/load increases, in most cases the damping/rates will increase, and start to burden the system if the motor becomes further loaded.

Another aspect I did not address earlier, is the heavier the media, the greater gravity/compressive force it transits onto the part being processed, and I also did not mention there maybe and likely, 2nd order and higher harmonics at play in these systems, that might factor into the process. Trying to calculate and predict those in advance would require a lot more information and I suspect a lot of run time on a super computer, or just 10? minutes. biggrin of real world testing


If you can't dazzle them with diamonds, don't waste your time, because nothing will
Re: Vibratory tumbler [Re: jcc] #2931496
06/08/21 11:08 PM
06/08/21 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jcc
Originally Posted by 6PakBee
Originally Posted by jcc
Originally Posted by NITROUSN
I don't get what the weight does or has on these tumblers. The one I have the basket is oscillated on rubber cushions. All the motor does is spinning an offset weight to make the basket oscillate. The motor is on its own and knows nothing about the weight in the basket.


My thinking, there are a few constants and a few variables in a "typical" vibrator system. The motor (excitor) hp and speed is fixed, the weight of the container is fixed, the imbalance weight and geometry is fixed, and the suspension/damping system is fixed. A;ll these constants determine a fixed oscillation resonance frequency of the unit. The variables are the weight ( I suspect size here doesn't matter much here) of the item(s) being processed, the weight of the media, the weight and viscosity of any process lubricant, and time. Combined Weight directly effects the frequency of the process, heavier being a lower frequency (meaning weight matters, how much is dependent mainly on available hp to overcome the above factors), based on the factors noted above. Condition, shape, etc of the parts being processed and the media and its size would be the last considerations. Did I miss anything?

Reminds of car tuning, everything effects everything else. biggrin


I don't think that changes in weight will affect frequency as that is a function of motor/drive speed. But I do think that more mass means more inertia. For a given amount of energy being supplied to the "tub" by the drive, as mass (and inertia) increases the less the tub will move with each cycle with the corresponding reduction in cleaning peformance.

So....as the mass (inertia) increases you have to supply more energy and you do that with more offset weight.


The main thing I think you are overlooking above is these systems are not free weights, ie no friction, no dampening. They are sprung in one fashion or another, and as the weight/load increases, in most cases the damping/rates will increase, and start to burden the system if the motor becomes further loaded.

Another aspect I did not address earlier, is the heavier the media, the greater gravity/compressive force it transits onto the part being processed, and I also did not mention there maybe and likely, 2nd order and higher harmonics at play in these systems, that might factor into the process. Trying to calculate and predict those in advance would require a lot more information and I suspect a lot of run time on a super computer, or just 10? minutes. biggrin of real world testing



With a cyclically applied force, inertia due to mass is dampening . Want to reduce vibration? Add mass. A simple analogy would be one person trying to rock a heavy car in neutral. Can't budge it, not enough energy. But a crowd of people trying to rock it.....success, more energy. Lighter car...less mass....fewer people needed.


Wife says too many cars, liquidation coming soon......
Re: Vibratory tumbler [Re: 6PakBee] #2931569
06/09/21 11:09 AM
06/09/21 11:09 AM
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Iowa
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Quote
What did you use for the phosphate coating? Not familiar with the waxing process.


Not sure what he uses but I've had good results with Black Oxide solution from Caswel Plating. It blackens the hardware but it doesn't protect it from rust. You need to seal the fasteners after they are darkened. I've used RPM from ECS but lately I've been using Johnson's Paste wax. Heat the part with a heat gun or torch and brush on the wax.

I have a Harbor Freight tumbler. I think they say you're supposed to use them "dry" but I didn't have good luck with it "dry". I like to use it with a little EvapoRust or a degreaser. With heavily rusted fasteners, the tumbler + EvapoRust seems to get the job done quicker then just dipping them in EvapoRust. With small grimy fasteners, sometimes it can be easier to tumble them with the degreaser instead of trying to clean them individually. Make sure you keep an eye on the tumbler though. My Harbor Freight tumblers motor locked up once. If I hadn't caught it, things might have gone bad. I was able to free it up so now I only use it when I'm out in the garage and can keep an eye on it.

Re: Vibratory tumbler [Re: Magnum] #2931594
06/09/21 12:19 PM
06/09/21 12:19 PM
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N.W. Florida
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Originally Posted by Magnum
Eastwood was another relatively cheap one with many bad reviews. I guess what interested me in this tool is the price of the cheap ones.
If a good one is over $1000. I will continue to sand blast and brush my parts. Mostly bolts and brackets.


You got sound advice within the first response (340SIX); Lyman of RCBS. Look at the reviews of the Lyman Pro 1200.

Re: Vibratory tumbler [Re: burdar] #2931599
06/09/21 12:29 PM
06/09/21 12:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
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Stuttgart, Arkansas
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Basically speaking you never do vibratory finishing dry. (An exception is using cob or walnut shells to polish.) The water and vibratory compound is what keeps the parts and media clean.

I use this for black oxide. And they have a great YouTube video.

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...uing-chemicals/oxpho-blue--prod1072.aspx


2011 Drag Pak Challenger
Re: Vibratory tumbler [Re: 6PakBee] #2931628
06/09/21 01:41 PM
06/09/21 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 6PakBee
Originally Posted by jcc
Originally Posted by 6PakBee
Originally Posted by jcc
[quote=NITROUSN]I don't get what the weight does or has on these tumblers. The one I have the basket is oscillated on rubber cushions. All the motor does is spinning an offset weight to make the basket oscillate. The motor is on its own and knows nothing about the weight in the basket.


My thinking, there are a few constants and a few variables in a "typical" vibrator system. The motor (excitor) hp and speed is fixed, the weight of the container is fixed, the imbalance weight and geometry is fixed, and the suspension/damping system is fixed. A;ll these constants determine a fixed oscillation resonance frequency of the unit. The variables are the weight ( I suspect size here doesn't matter much here) of the item(s) being processed, the weight of the media, the weight and viscosity of any process lubricant, and time. Combined Weight directly effects the frequency of the process, heavier being a lower frequency (meaning weight matters, how much is dependent mainly on available hp to overcome the above factors), based on the factors noted above. Condition, shape, etc of the parts being processed and the media and its size would be the last considerations. Did I miss anything?

Reminds of car tuning, everything effects everything else. biggrin


I don't think that changes in weight will affect frequency as that is a function of motor/drive speed. But I do think that more mass means more inertia. For a given amount of energy being supplied to the "tub" by the drive, as mass (and inertia) increases the less the tub will move with each cycle with the corresponding reduction in cleaning peformance.

So....as the mass (inertia) increases you have to supply more energy and you do that with more offset weight.


The main thing I think you are overlooking above is these systems are not free weights, ie no friction, no dampening. They are sprung in one fashion or another, and as the weight/load increases, in most cases the damping/rates will increase, and start to burden the system if the motor becomes further loaded.

Another aspect I did not address earlier, is the heavier the media, the greater gravity/compressive force it transits onto the part being processed, and I also did not mention there maybe and likely, 2nd order and higher harmonics at play in these systems, that might factor into the process. Trying to calculate and predict those in advance would require a lot more information and I suspect a lot of run time on a super computer, or just 10? minutes. biggrin of real world testing



With a cyclically applied force, inertia due to mass is dampening . Want to reduce vibration? Add mass. A simple analogy would be one person trying to rock a heavy car in neutral. Can't budge it, not enough energy. But a crowd of people trying to rock it.....success, more energy. Lighter car...less mass....fewer people needed.

I am seeing two opposing views here you are sharing, so to the main contention here, in simple terms, mass matters.


If you can't dazzle them with diamonds, don't waste your time, because nothing will
Re: Vibratory tumbler [Re: 6PakBee] #2932043
06/10/21 04:35 PM
06/10/21 04:35 PM
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I would think those vibratory units would operate near their “resonant frequency” to shake more.

In a simple system the resonant frequency is the square root of K divided by M
K= the spring rate
M = mass of the tub, media, parts, liquid

Birtley Engineering centrifuges work on a similar principle to discharge the dried product without gears.

This same principle made the “Galloping Gertie” bridge collapse at a particular wind speed.
When you see STOP signs wiggling right-left right left in hurricane winds it is the same principle.

Re: Vibratory tumbler [Re: 360view] #2932131
06/10/21 10:28 PM
06/10/21 10:28 PM
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A reasonable enough assumption, except if so, the end result might also be the same as the bridge you mentioned. laugh2


If you can't dazzle them with diamonds, don't waste your time, because nothing will
Re: Vibratory tumbler [Re: 360view] #2932193
06/11/21 07:56 AM
06/11/21 07:56 AM
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonance

With the simple Harbor Freight class of vibratory tumbler
there is probably an “Optimum Shake Mass”
where vibration stroke is highest because it is near resonant frequency.

The input frequency is the speed of vibrator motor (assuming it drives one single crank weight)
and needs to converted to units of Hertz, cycles per second.
3600 rpm is cycles per minute and should be converted to cycles per second so
3600/60 = 60 Hertz

1800 rpm would be 30 Hertz,
etc

Spring rate is calculated similar to engine valve spring rate measurement
but needs to be in units of Newtons per Meter
instead of LBS per inch.

Be careful if you choose to use “American” style units of LBS
because a “Pound” is a unit of Force, not a mass.
You have to know when to
divide Pounds by 32.2 feet per second per second, the acceleration of Gravity in the American units system
to convert to the seldom heard of “Poundals” of mass for use in math equations.
If you did not go to Engineering School prior to year 1980 you will probably make a mistake.

Stick with kilograms, meters and seconds.

Just as an example,
Let us say the motor is 1800 rpm, (30 Hertz)
The bowl and lid of the vibratory polisher weighs 250 grams.
If you add 750 grams of parts to this 250 gram bowel, the springs beneath compress 2 mm.

K the Spring Rate is (.250 KG + .750 KG) divided by ( 2/1000 meters)

( 1 KG divided by 0.002 meters)
= 500 KG per Meter

The simple Resonance equation is

Omega = SQUARE ROOT [K/M ]

30 Hertz = SR [ 500/ M]
30 x 30 = 500/M
900 = 500 /M
M = 500/900
Mass that creates resonance is 0.555 of a Kilogram
This is the mass of the parts plus bowl
Subtract the .250 KG mass of the bowl to find the mass of parts
only 305 grams of the sum of media plus parts can be cleaned at maximum shake.

The above numbers are just guesses for example of the math.
Each vibratory cleaner spring rate, masses and true operating rpm of motor under load would have to be measured by its owner.

Re: Vibratory tumbler [Re: 360view] #2932197
06/11/21 08:21 AM
06/11/21 08:21 AM
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[Not disputing your above math/calculations, but the big variable in this application is the additional mass beyond the machine, which has been already been mentioned. It is a composite of liquid, media, parts being processed, and it is conformable and is free to move. I don't see how its resonate frequency contribution can be easily assessed and factored in. For those on the sidelines, the shortcoming of using mass only in the calculations might be similar to proclaiming equal mass amounts of glass and lead have same the resonant frequency.


If you can't dazzle them with diamonds, don't waste your time, because nothing will
Re: Vibratory tumbler [Re: A12] #2932209
06/11/21 09:10 AM
06/11/21 09:10 AM
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KY
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Originally Posted by A12
How good or bad are the vibratory tumblers from Eastwood ??

https://www.eastwood.com/autobody/buffing/vibratory-tumblers.html

(that silhouette of the car at the bottom of the page with "subscribe" looks familiar, scope sure looks like a Mopar to me up up wink )

Mike


I ha e the Eastwood unit and it’s been great for me. I use their media and let it run quite a bit and it’s cleaned up some pretty nasty pieces I’ve thrown at it. No complaints from me but I know some have had a few issues. The parts come out clean, polished and rust free. I do clean them first to remove any first, grease etc..

Re: Vibratory tumbler [Re: rickseeman] #2932210
06/11/21 09:11 AM
06/11/21 09:11 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
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KY
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Originally Posted by rickseeman
Basically speaking you never do vibratory finishing dry. (An exception is using cob or walnut shells to polish.) The water and vibratory compound is what keeps the parts and media clean.

I use this for black oxide. And they have a great YouTube video.

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...uing-chemicals/oxpho-blue--prod1072.aspx


I agree, great product

Re: Vibratory tumbler [Re: 65pacecar] #2932411
06/12/21 07:02 AM
06/12/21 07:02 AM
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link for cleaning media

https://www.brownells.com/reloading/case-cleaning/tumbling-media-additives/index.htm

if you live in coal mine country most cleaning plants buy tons of very finely ground magnetite and you can literally scoop up handfulls

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