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Re: too much caster ??? [Re: ruderunner] #2925707
05/22/21 11:13 PM
05/22/21 11:13 PM
Joined: May 2003
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Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
Still wishing...
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I think the problem may be with those tubular control arms.

You could plot the caster, camber and toe change through the suspension's range of motion or replace them with a set of stock ones and see if the problem goes away.

There's not a lot of things to cause this. A balljoint with a tight spot in it or the box itself but you seem to have covered those bases.

You could take it to another alignment shop, don't tell them anything other than you want them to set it up on the machine to check it and see if their results resemble the readout from the shop you are using.

Kevin

Re: too much caster ??? [Re: Twostick] #2925732
05/23/21 06:04 AM
05/23/21 06:04 AM
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ohio
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ruderunner Offline
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Speaking of tight spots, did the drag link ever get checked?

It would help if we could combine the 3 or 4 threads about this


Angry white guy
Re: too much caster ??? [Re: ruderunner] #2925797
05/23/21 11:59 AM
05/23/21 11:59 AM
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north of coder
moparx Offline OP
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the draglink has been rebuilt, and has no play whatsoever.
in fact, every moving part has been checked multiple times, and there is no play anywhere in anything that pivots or moves up and down.
it's getting to the point where i think there may be so many aftermarket parts plus a mix of items that just "fit", that the basic geometry is plain screwed up.
someone suggested plotting the suspension curve, and i think that is a prudent move.
however, since the weather is nice, he is constantly on the go, and i don't know if i can get him to sit still long enough to pop the front springs out to really get an idea what is going on with the suspension moving through it's whole range of travel.
i am not literate enough to do a computer analysis of this. i need to see it in real time, then use measurements and some math to figure it somewhat close.
one thing i haven't done though, because it would take me some time doing.
i have all the "old time" home alignment tools. magnetic spindle mount caster/camber gauge, swivel turn plates, and toe stick. it would be interesting to see what i would get if i spent a day or two checking with my tools.
beer

Re: too much caster ??? [Re: moparx] #2925815
05/23/21 12:55 PM
05/23/21 12:55 PM
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UPPER MICHIGAN, MARQUETTE COUN...
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Just get it on the rack and align it. The way it is now is not right. In a few minutes after the caster swings are made you will see exactly what it is. Steering angle, thrust angle along with all the readings for caster, camber, toe. If it aligns to the specs I gave you then deal with any problems. If your friend is that busy he must not care about the issue. Neither should you if thats the case.

Re: too much caster ??? [Re: NITROUSN] #2925835
05/23/21 01:35 PM
05/23/21 01:35 PM
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north of coder
moparx Offline OP
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here is a pic of the last alignment done in august of last year.
i remember now it was mentioned the way the upper arms were mounted, [inboard of the chassis mounting point] all the shims were removed, and the camber could not be made any more positive.
this is not a constant "sawing back and forth" [unsafe] correction needed, rather just a minute thing that gets bothersome/tiring after a 3 hour drive.
of all the power steering conversions he and i have made over a 50 year friendship, this is the first one that has had this symptom/problem.
the vendor that supplied the box said this box is designed to be tight on center instead of having the minute play other boxes have.
tossing $100 bills to the alignment place every time isn't much fun, especially since i have the tools and know how to use them, although it is getting difficult to crawl around like i used to.
beer

scan0109.jpg
Re: too much caster ??? [Re: moparx] #2925848
05/23/21 02:18 PM
05/23/21 02:18 PM
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The way that print out is it looks like they did not adjust anything. One other thing I did not like is the included angle is less than the SAI angle and the included angle should be more. Again that car is not in line. If a proper alignment was done those numbers could be then in specs. Tell your pal to quit screwing around and get it to a qualified alignment shop.

Re: too much caster ??? [Re: NITROUSN] #2926081
05/24/21 10:12 AM
05/24/21 10:12 AM
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ruderunner Offline
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The math checks out for the difference between sai and included angle, remember there's a ton of negative camber.

But included angle is close to caster which may be affecting directional stability.

Do you have the original control arms?

Also, back off the adjuster on the drag link, too tight can bind the steering. Its spring loaded and should have some (minimal) play.

Last edited by ruderunner; 05/24/21 10:13 AM.

Angry white guy
Re: too much caster ??? [Re: ruderunner] #2926146
05/24/21 12:38 PM
05/24/21 12:38 PM
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geo. Offline
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I don't know bleep about 58 c-cars.
With the aftermarket upper tubular control arms currently made for Mopar, I think most can be swapped left for right.
If this is possible on this car, try swapping them.
The OEM B body upper arms, '62-'72 , actually have the upper ball joint offset slightly forward to REDUCE caster angle!
And as others have said, return everything to stock, and start over.

Re: too much caster ??? [Re: geo.] #2926295
05/24/21 09:08 PM
05/24/21 09:08 PM
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ruderunner Offline
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It's actually a 58 Impala. But good point about having the arms on the wrong side.


Angry white guy
Re: too much caster ??? [Re: jcc] #2926303
05/24/21 09:52 PM
05/24/21 09:52 PM
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Seattle, WA
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375inStroke Offline
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Originally Posted by jcc
I wonder if "too much" exists, or if one could ever achieve "too much". It seems to me, most like more caster, and settle for whatever they get additional. Only downside at my pay grade I can think of, is the greater steering effort needed with greater caster, and the possible inclination to want "snap back" with extreme caster, if that is possible. It is a question I have never seen raised before. up


My '69 Darts, manual steering, max caster with stock suspension, the wheel would snap back very fast when turning fast in parking lots. Not so with my power steering car that have more caster than is achievable with stock suspension.

Re: too much caster ??? [Re: 375inStroke] #2927600
05/28/21 11:30 AM
05/28/21 11:30 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 14,547
north of coder
moparx Offline OP
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to be continued...............
beer

Re: too much caster ??? [Re: moparx] #2928247
05/29/21 06:10 PM
05/29/21 06:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
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MYRTLE BEACH SOUTH CAROLINA
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Originally Posted by moparx
caster : left-5.90, right-5.46
camber : left : -1.71, right: -1.24
toe : -1/8"
beer
based on what i see/read.... your cross member is sagging. this was very common on those cars. you most likely cant get enough adjustment to correct your camber. moog used to make a [ 2*] shaft /bushing kit to correct this. .usually all the shims are out and you have no more room for adjustments ! to fix it , you chain it down on a frame machine and pick the center up to get it back to specs. your toe should be good at 1/8" in and your camber should be positive on both sides not negative.to start get it around .5 pos right and 1.0 pos left . this is for radial tires....the camber split keeps it true on the slanted road.. caster is not the issue... check it and let me know . i am 99% sure this is whats going on.... Does the power steering box have the directional assist valve on the bottom? thats the only other thing i can think of that would do this...

Last edited by ek3; 05/29/21 07:24 PM.
Re: too much caster ??? [Re: ek3] #2928295
05/29/21 08:25 PM
05/29/21 08:25 PM
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Granite Bay
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Positive camber???? tsk

Re: too much caster ??? [Re: ek3] #2928331
05/29/21 09:57 PM
05/29/21 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ek3
Originally Posted by moparx
caster : left-5.90, right-5.46
camber : left : -1.71, right: -1.24
toe : -1/8"
beer
based on what i see/read.... your cross member is sagging. this was very common on those cars. you most likely cant get enough adjustment to correct your camber. moog used to make a [ 2*] shaft /bushing kit to correct this. .usually all the shims are out and you have no more room for adjustments ! to fix it , you chain it down on a frame machine and pick the center up to get it back to specs. your toe should be good at 1/8" in and your camber should be positive on both sides not negative.to start get it around .5 pos right and 1.0 pos left . this is for radial tires....the camber split keeps it true on the slanted road.. caster is not the issue... check it and let me know . i am 99% sure this is whats going on.... Does the power steering box have the directional assist valve on the bottom? thats the only other thing i can think of that would do this...


WOW,

Re: too much caster ??? [Re: NITROUSN] #2928351
05/29/21 11:36 PM
05/29/21 11:36 PM
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MYRTLE BEACH SOUTH CAROLINA
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ek3 Offline
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yes . positive camber... to the op. check the things i asked about and let me know where they are.... then i will re-think what i have posted... i dont think i am wrong and this will clear it up quickly. nobodys perfect ! i stand by my words... this is a rear steering car correct ???

Re: too much caster ??? [Re: ek3] #2928354
05/29/21 11:41 PM
05/29/21 11:41 PM
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Trumussia
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Positive camber is fine for old school with narrow bias tires non handling goals. Negative for everything else. grin


If you can't dazzle them with diamonds, don't waste your time, because nothing will
Re: too much caster ??? [Re: ek3] #2928385
05/30/21 06:32 AM
05/30/21 06:32 AM
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ohio
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ruderunner Offline
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Originally Posted by ek3
Originally Posted by moparx
caster : left-5.90, right-5.46
camber : left : -1.71, right: -1.24
toe : -1/8"
beer
based on what i see/read.... your cross member is sagging. this was very common on those cars. you most likely cant get enough adjustment to correct your camber. moog used to make a [ 2*] shaft /bushing kit to correct this. .usually all the shims are out and you have no more room for adjustments ! to fix it , you chain it down on a frame machine and pick the center up to get it back to specs. your toe should be good at 1/8" in and your camber should be positive on both sides not negative.to start get it around .5 pos right and 1.0 pos left . this is for radial tires....the camber split keeps it true on the slanted road.. caster is not the issue... check it and let me know . i am 99% sure this is whats going on.... Does the power steering box have the directional assist valve on the bottom? thats the only other thing i can think of that would do this...


It's an unusual problem but I've dealt with the same thing on 2nd generation Explorers. Excessive negative camber from the frame rails twisting inward. My only concern with such a diagnosis in this case is the aftermarket control arms and the possibility that they are not correct for the application.


Angry white guy
Re: too much caster ??? [Re: ruderunner] #2928511
05/30/21 02:26 PM
05/30/21 02:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 14,547
north of coder
moparx Offline OP
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this is a front steer car.
a trip to the frame machine was mentioned quite a while ago. i think the age, plus the botched air bag mess, has the crossmember ginked up.
went looking for the original control arms a couple of days ago to check their lengths against the tube arms, but i believe they may have been scrapped.
beer

Re: too much caster ??? [Re: moparx] #2928553
05/30/21 04:19 PM
05/30/21 04:19 PM
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Just align it and see where it takes you. No sense overthinking this.

Re: too much caster ??? [Re: NITROUSN] #2928582
05/30/21 05:56 PM
05/30/21 05:56 PM
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ruderunner Offline
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But, he can't get more camber. Getting less caster should be doable but camber will go more negative.

Have the knuckles changed too? Or just the arms?


Angry white guy
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