Hydraulic roller lifters camshaft questions on a 440
#2905203
04/02/21 07:31 AM
04/02/21 07:31 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,391 Abilene, Texas
fastmark
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OP
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,391
Abilene, Texas
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I know this is the new technology right now, but’s when its retro fitted into and old platform, there can be issues. I just built my first hydraulic roller lifter motor for a customer who just had to have one, along with roller rockers. Upon advice from a board members here, I bought the setup through him. Over all, I am pleased. So is the customer. It was a custom comp grind and good lifters( not comps) with the rockers from Mancini. They are made by Harland Sharp for Mancini. It has great vacuum of 15” at idle for power brakes and has great low end on this six pack motor. My only concern are it is a little noisy in the valve train area. I had my engine machinist listen to it and he had heard nothing that was out of normal noise levels. I was told to not put a high volume or high pressure oil pump in because the excessive pressure would wear the gear out faster. I have the hardened gear from Hughes. With 15w-50 Driven oil, It idles cold at 45 and hot at 25. It runs down the road at 40-45 warm. The bearing clearances are 3.2-3.5 on the mains. I now from experience that mopars loose a lot of oil pressure around the lifter bores anyway but are rollers worse? Should I bush the lifter bores on my next hyd roller 440. Motor hauls a$$, so customer is happy. Any thoughts?
Last edited by fastmark; 04/02/21 07:31 AM.
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters camshaft questions on a 440
[Re: fastmark]
#2905264
04/02/21 10:06 AM
04/02/21 10:06 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I would say it this way......
If you’re expecting the quietness of an oe hyd cam/valvetrain using a retrofit hyd roller cam & lifter combo in an old school platform that includes a typical performance lobe design....... you’re going to be disappointed.
They more often than not will have comparable operational noise to that of a tight lash SFT street oriented profile.
A quick google search for “hydraulic roller lifter noise” will bring you tons of hits for pretty much every engine platform and lifter brand out there.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters camshaft questions on a 440
[Re: fastmark]
#2905292
04/02/21 10:48 AM
04/02/21 10:48 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277 West Coast, USA
jbc426
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I tried to run a hydraulic roller, but it didn't match with my driving style, and inadequate valve spring pressure limited my higher rpm usage to the point of valve train instability. I went with a solid roller and would never go back to hydraulic roller in an RB application.
I did find that intermediate shaft gear wear can be substantially reduced by using a collar on the distributor shaft to limit the up and down movement on the intermediate shaft gear, which controls and stabilizes the contact area between the cam gear and the intermediate shaft gear.
Without the collar on the distributor shaft, the distributor shaft tang and the female receiving slot on the intermediate shaft are what limits the up and down movement of the intermediate shaft. Mine was able to move up and down almost 1/4 of an inch before the tang would bottom out, and that excessive movement really wore the softer intermediate shaft gear. I switched to the melonized gear when I installed the new solid roller AND I run the collar. Wear is virtually nil at this point.
On a related note, I also run the aluminum body Milodon oil pump with the altered gearator shape compaared to the stock gearator design, which requires less power to spin and consequently reduces the load on those two gears at a given rpm.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters camshaft questions on a 440
[Re: jbc426]
#2905677
04/03/21 09:29 AM
04/03/21 09:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,713 North Dakota
6PakBee
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I Live Here
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I tried to run a hydraulic roller, but it didn't match with my driving style, and inadequate valve spring pressure limited my higher rpm usage to the point of valve train instability. I went with a solid roller and would never go back to hydraulic roller in an RB application.
I did find that intermediate shaft gear wear can be substantially reduced by using a collar on the distributor shaft to limit the up and down movement on the intermediate shaft gear, which controls and stabilizes the contact area between the cam gear and the intermediate shaft gear.
Without the collar on the distributor shaft, the distributor shaft tang and the female receiving slot on the intermediate shaft are what limits the up and down movement of the intermediate shaft. Mine was able to move up and down almost 1/4 of an inch before the tang would bottom out, and that excessive movement really wore the softer intermediate shaft gear. I switched to the melonized gear when I installed the new solid roller AND I run the collar. Wear is virtually nil at this point.
On a related note, I also run the aluminum body Milodon oil pump with the altered gearator shape compaared to the stock gearator design, which requires less power to spin and consequently reduces the load on those two gears at a given rpm. What were the specs on the hydraulic roller cam and the springs you were using?
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters camshaft questions on a 440
[Re: jbc426]
#2905733
04/03/21 11:48 AM
04/03/21 11:48 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,270 Morrow, OH
markz528
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Morrow, OH
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I tried to run a hydraulic roller, but it didn't match with my driving style, and inadequate valve spring pressure limited my higher rpm usage to the point of valve train instability. I went with a solid roller and would never go back to hydraulic roller in an RB application. Me too. Ran like gang busters, but floated the valves around 6000. They can't handle much rpm in a big block Mopar from my experience an research.
67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph 67 Coronet 500 (street car) 14.82 @ 94 mph 69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters camshaft questions on a 440
[Re: 6PakBee]
#2906125
04/04/21 11:01 AM
04/04/21 11:01 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277 West Coast, USA
jbc426
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"What were the specs on the hydraulic roller cam and the springs you were using?"
It was an older grind. with 246 I/252 E duration at .050 and just over .550 lift with 1.5 to 1 rockers. I believe it had a 108* LSA.. I don't recall which springs it had, but it turned out the installed height was not correct and the resultant spring pressures were slightly too low. The springs began to lose control of the valve train at around 5800 rpm. The resultant valve train harmonics ended up disintegrating the needle bearings in my exhaust rockers. The intake pushrods were dampened by flexing just enough that they started touching the outside of the intake ports. The whole process was not really detectable by me while it was happening, as the motor would still pull like a freight train to 6500rpm.
I spotted some bits of metal in my heads after coming home from a car show and doing a routine valve covers off check. It took the sleuthing abilities and knowledge of Dwayne Porter to pin point the root cause of losing just the exhaust rocker bearings. He went completely through my heads, spec'd me a solid roller cam and helped guide Ross through spec'ing a custom piston to lower my compression ratio from 12.2 to 1 down to 10.2 to 1 while still having maximum quench. He rocked the set-up, and Mike at B3 Racing guided me through optimizing my rocker arm set-up. I also upgraded to 7/16ths Manton Stage 5 pushrods. Those things are burly.
I believe the spring pressures set-up was close to the limit of potentially collapsing the lifters if they were too much higher, but that is just speculation.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters camshaft questions on a 440
[Re: CSK]
#2906233
04/04/21 01:06 PM
04/04/21 01:06 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,157 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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Bend,OR USA
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And then, WITH the proper spring pressure you can adjust that Hydro roller .020 from the bottom & yes they are still noisy LOL never set the preload so low. NEVER at .020 from bottomed out All the instructions I've seen show from .020 tp .050 preload max, not .150 + preload I use from 1/4 to 1/3 turn preload depending if the adjusters are 3/8x24 thread with 1/3 turn or 1/4 turn with 7/16x20 threads with a 1/4 turn HOT especially with aluminum heads
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 04/04/21 01:06 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters camshaft questions on a 440
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2906287
04/04/21 02:06 PM
04/04/21 02:06 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,857 Pattison Texas
CSK
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Pattison Texas
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And then, WITH the proper spring pressure you can adjust that Hydro roller .020 from the bottom & yes they are still noisy LOL never set the preload so low. NEVER at .020 from bottomed out All the instructions I've seen show from .020 tp .050 preload max, not .150 + preload I use from 1/4 to 1/3 turn preload depending if the adjusters are 3/8x24 thread with 1/3 turn or 1/4 turn with 7/16x20 threads with a 1/4 turn HOT especially with aluminum heads Not going to argue, it works GREAT !!!!
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters camshaft questions on a 440
[Re: CSK]
#2906297
04/04/21 02:18 PM
04/04/21 02:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I Live Here
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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Not all hyd roller lifters are created equal.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters camshaft questions on a 440
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2906582
04/04/21 10:16 PM
04/04/21 10:16 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,857 Pattison Texas
CSK
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Not all hyd roller lifters are created equal. Very valid point.
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters camshaft questions on a 440
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2906661
04/05/21 05:51 AM
04/05/21 05:51 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,391 Abilene, Texas
fastmark
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OP
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Posts: 6,391
Abilene, Texas
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Not all hyd roller lifters are created equal. I’ve heard that. That’s why I bought them from a expert. My machinist recommended Morrels and I did not go with them. I figure it’s the ramp speed of the cam on this profile. I was taking a buddy of mine for a ride in the car and he mentioned his 340 flat tappet hyd motor made racket with roller rockers. He uses ray Barton cams. The customer doesn’t mind. His other car is a stock 68 hemi RR. It makes noise for sure. The car runs great and that’s the main goal. It has great vacuum at idle and low end is real good, giving it great drivability for street car.
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters camshaft questions on a 440
[Re: jbc426]
#2906750
04/05/21 09:37 AM
04/05/21 09:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,713 North Dakota
6PakBee
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,713
North Dakota
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"What were the specs on the hydraulic roller cam and the springs you were using?"
It was an older grind. with 246 I/252 E duration at .050 and just over .550 lift with 1.5 to 1 rockers. I believe it had a 108* LSA.. I don't recall which springs it had, but it turned out the installed height was not correct and the resultant spring pressures were slightly too low. The springs began to lose control of the valve train at around 5800 rpm. The resultant valve train harmonics ended up disintegrating the needle bearings in my exhaust rockers. The intake pushrods were dampened by flexing just enough that they started touching the outside of the intake ports. The whole process was not really detectable by me while it was happening, as the motor would still pull like a freight train to 6500rpm.
I spotted some bits of metal in my heads after coming home from a car show and doing a routine valve covers off check. It took the sleuthing abilities and knowledge of Dwayne Porter to pin point the root cause of loosing just the exhaust rocker bearings. He went completely through my heads, spec'd me a solid roller cam and helped guide Ross through spec'ing a custom piston to lower my compression ratio from 12.2 to 1 down to 10.2 to 1 while still having maximum quench. He rocked the set-up, and Mike at B3 Racing guided me through optimizing my rocker arm set-up. I also upgraded to 7/16ths Manton Stage 5 pushrods. Those things are burly.
I believe the spring pressures set-up was close to the limit of potentially collapsing the lifters if they were too much higher, but that is just speculation. Thank you.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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