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Locked out distributor #2817729
09/06/20 10:26 AM
09/06/20 10:26 AM
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Chicago, IL
TonyS451 Offline OP
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Running a locked msd pro billet on my 12.5-1 493 . I have a digital 6 w start retard, but still get starter kickback and hard starting from time to time. Very annoying to say the least, but once started it runs awesome. Contemplating swapping distributor for a non locked version, or perhaps wire a start switch so I can get engine cranking first and then hit ignition. Built as a race car that wants to do some street cruising as well. Any thoughts?


2 kids and a dog
Re: Locked out distributor [Re: TonyS451] #2817739
09/06/20 10:59 AM
09/06/20 10:59 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula Offline
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I also found my MSD start retard very un-reliable. I was told it has to do with where the rotor lands when it stops, but I couldn't risk breaking the starter and went back to my usual.

Somtimes mine would work, somtimes it wouldn't....Hated it.


'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: Locked out distributor [Re: TonyS451] #2817744
09/06/20 11:05 AM
09/06/20 11:05 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
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New York
polyspheric Offline
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What setting does the retard default to?

Reasons to lock the distributor:
1. one less thing to fail
2. fewer questions
3. less maintenance
4. don't understand what an advance curve does
5. bought it that way

The best spark setting for mixed use is not, ever, a single position. Beyond a certain RPM, and assuming WOT, a single setting is very close.


Boffin Emeritus
Re: Locked out distributor [Re: TonyS451] #2817754
09/06/20 11:25 AM
09/06/20 11:25 AM
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Oregon
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Time to finally make the switch to a Holley Sniper. Then you'll have EFI, plus data logging and a fully adjustable timing curve including start retard built in.

Re: Locked out distributor [Re: AndyF] #2817761
09/06/20 11:35 AM
09/06/20 11:35 AM
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Washington
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madscientist Offline
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Unlock the distributor and put the correct curve in it. Locking the timing out is wrong.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Locked out distributor [Re: Dragula] #2817775
09/06/20 11:59 AM
09/06/20 11:59 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
TonyS451 Offline OP
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Somtimes mine would work, somtimes it wouldn't....Hated it.

Same!


2 kids and a dog
Re: Locked out distributor [Re: polyspheric] #2817776
09/06/20 12:04 PM
09/06/20 12:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
TonyS451 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by polyspheric
What setting does the retard default to?

Reasons to lock the distributor:
1. one less thing to fail
2. fewer questions
3. less maintenance
4. don't understand what an advance curve does
5. bought it that way

The best spark setting for mixed use is not, ever, a single position. Beyond a certain RPM, and assuming WOT, a single setting is very close.


Bought it that way thinking I had a start retard and it wouldn’t be an issue. Wrong!
MSD digital 6 manual says it retards timing 20 degrees. I guess I also planned for this car to be race only, but now
I’m getting some street use out of it.


2 kids and a dog
Re: Locked out distributor [Re: AndyF] #2817779
09/06/20 12:05 PM
09/06/20 12:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
TonyS451 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by AndyF
Time to finally make the switch to a Holley Sniper. Then you'll have EFI, plus data logging and a fully adjustable timing curve including start retard built in.


Maybe when budget allows ..


2 kids and a dog
Re: Locked out distributor [Re: TonyS451] #2817786
09/06/20 12:18 PM
09/06/20 12:18 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula Offline
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I now have a Pertronix ignition and it has a start retard built in. I have not tried it. If what they say is true of the rotor stopping in the wrong spot, then this box probably would not be any different, but again I have not tried it. I always thought it was because mine was added on after the fact instead of built in.

Reasons to lock the distributor:
-Better Idle
-Easier to set total timing
-One less thing to go wrong
-Some cars really like it locked better than a curve.

Last edited by Dragula; 09/06/20 12:22 PM.

'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: Locked out distributor [Re: madscientist] #2817800
09/06/20 12:54 PM
09/06/20 12:54 PM
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Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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Originally Posted by madscientist
Unlock the distributor and put the correct curve in it. Locking the timing out is wrong.
iagree
Set the initial, idle timing, at or close to 14 to 16 BTDC and total of 34 to 36 BTDC and let us know how that works for you scope
I use the Mr. Gasket 96B springs up (I hope that is the correct part number, maybe I should go look at some on the shelf, it is for GM distributors blush grin)


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Locked out distributor [Re: TonyS451] #2817802
09/06/20 12:59 PM
09/06/20 12:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
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MYRTLE BEACH SOUTH CAROLINA
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ek3 Offline
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Originally Posted by TonyS451
Running a locked msd pro billet on my 12.5-1 493 . I have a digital 6 w start retard, but still get starter kickback and hard starting from time to time. Very annoying to say the least, but once started it runs awesome. Contemplating swapping distributor for a non locked version, or perhaps wire a start switch so I can get engine cranking first and then hit ignition. Built as a race car that wants to do some street cruising as well. Any thoughts?
re- check the timing delay and fix that or [ unlock it.] ... with 12-1 comp ratio it will need a lot of starter to turn that. . i have used them both ways. a second switch will let you spin it over but, i have seen them hang up as soon as you flip the power on too... i would put in a curve...

Re: Locked out distributor [Re: Cab_Burge] #2817813
09/06/20 01:15 PM
09/06/20 01:15 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula Offline
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Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Originally Posted by madscientist
Unlock the distributor and put the correct curve in it. Locking the timing out is wrong.
iagree
Set the initial, idle timing, at or close to 14 to 16 BTDC and total of 34 to 36 BTDC and let us know how that works for you scope
I use the Mr. Gasket 96B springs up (I hope that is the correct part number, maybe I should go look at some on the shelf, it is for GM distributors blush grin)


That curve wouldn't even idle in my Hemi. Funny how everyone thinks the same curve works on every engine. Its just a starting point, and you need to work on it to see how the engine responds Each engine likes what it likes, and total and idle will be different engine to engine. We are finding our stroker wedge engines like right around 38* and my buddies 440 that went 6.19 last night has to have 40* in it....

Whats nice about a locked distributor is the idle generally will get better with more timing. To low of idle timing, and the engine will start and stall very quickly, never really getting a strong idle. I find most of my engines like at least 20* in them. Hemis really like 25 at idle. Wedge we find 18 is usually fine. I like to close up the curve as much as possible to where its almost hard to start.


'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: Locked out distributor [Re: Dragula] #2817820
09/06/20 01:39 PM
09/06/20 01:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
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Wichita
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GY3 Offline
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I use a stock disributor to trigger a 6AL. I put the lightweight Mr. Gasket 925B springs in it. Essentially they act like a start retard as once fired it has all 36° of total timing. Works great!


'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.

Re: Locked out distributor [Re: Dragula] #2817826
09/06/20 02:02 PM
09/06/20 02:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
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CA
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Originally Posted by Dragula
Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Originally Posted by madscientist
Unlock the distributor and put the correct curve in it. Locking the timing out is wrong.
iagree
Set the initial, idle timing, at or close to 14 to 16 BTDC and total of 34 to 36 BTDC and let us know how that works for you scope
I use the Mr. Gasket 96B springs up (I hope that is the correct part number, maybe I should go look at some on the shelf, it is for GM distributors blush grin)


That curve wouldn't even idle in my Hemi. Funny how everyone thinks the same curve works on every engine. Its just a starting point, and you need to work on it to see how the engine responds Each engine likes what it likes, and total and idle will be different engine to engine. We are finding our stroker wedge engines like right around 38* and my buddies 440 that went 6.19 last night has to have 40* in it....

Whats nice about a locked distributor is the idle generally will get better with more timing. To low of idle timing, and the engine will start and stall very quickly, never really getting a strong idle. I find most of my engines like at least 20* in them. Hemis really like 25 at idle. Wedge we find 18 is usually fine. I like to close up the curve as much as possible to where its almost hard to start.


Agreed, let the engine tell you what it wants.

Re: Locked out distributor [Re: Dragula] #2817999
09/06/20 09:49 PM
09/06/20 09:49 PM
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Washington
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madscientist Offline
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Originally Posted by Dragula
Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Originally Posted by madscientist
Unlock the distributor and put the correct curve in it. Locking the timing out is wrong.
iagree
Set the initial, idle timing, at or close to 14 to 16 BTDC and total of 34 to 36 BTDC and let us know how that works for you scope
I use the Mr. Gasket 96B springs up (I hope that is the correct part number, maybe I should go look at some on the shelf, it is for GM distributors blush grin)


That curve wouldn't even idle in my Hemi. Funny how everyone thinks the same curve works on every engine. Its just a starting point, and you need to work on it to see how the engine responds Each engine likes what it likes, and total and idle will be different engine to engine. We are finding our stroker wedge engines like right around 38* and my buddies 440 that went 6.19 last night has to have 40* in it....

Whats nice about a locked distributor is the idle generally will get better with more timing. To low of idle timing, and the engine will start and stall very quickly, never really getting a strong idle. I find most of my engines like at least 20* in them. Hemis really like 25 at idle. Wedge we find 18 is usually fine. I like to close up the curve as much as possible to where its almost hard to start.


The issue with locked timing is you have no idea what your total timing is. Unless you set total at WOT. Then the curve won’t be correct if you don’t account for box retard.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Locked out distributor [Re: madscientist] #2818010
09/06/20 10:33 PM
09/06/20 10:33 PM
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Fulton County, PA
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CMcAllister Offline
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Big lumpy cams in a carbureted deal get locked.

You put the MSD distributor in it with the big bushing and light springs. And still have to make it idle at 1000 for it to stay running. Try to slow it down and the timing backs down, slowing it down even more until it won't run. Or it stalls when you drop it in gear. So you wind the idle up to keep it spinning fast enough to keep some timing in it so it will stay running.

Make a bushing or whatever, to get enough timing in it to idle and it ends up at 25, at least. Well I'm only running 34 and it's all in at 1500. Nothing happens below 3000 in my world, so why bother.

I've done the light springs, make a big bushing, drill the throttle blades, fiddle around with it, and every time I put a few more degrees of base timing in it, it likes it. So...Lock it, set it at 34 or whatever. It will idle at 800 in gear. Response will be sharp and crisp and it sounds happy. Every time.

And I've gone back and tried it the other way because "it's not supposed to be locked and it should have a curve". And the engine tells me "gimme timing".

Anything of mine, or anyone else's who spends the money and lets me, gets a crank trigger and a distributor that just spins the rotor around the cap. Easy, effective, simple.


If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: Locked out distributor [Re: CMcAllister] #2818015
09/06/20 10:44 PM
09/06/20 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by CMcAllister
Big lumpy cams in a carbureted deal get locked.

You put the MSD distributor in it with the big bushing and light springs. And still have to make it idle at 1000 for it to stay running. Try to slow it down and the timing backs down, slowing it down even more until it won't run. Or it stalls when you drop it in gear. So you wind the idle up to keep it spinning fast enough to keep some timing in it so it will stay running.

Make a bushing or whatever, to get enough timing in it to idle and it ends up at 25, at least. Well I'm only running 34 and it's all in at 1500. Nothing happens below 3000 in my world, so why bother.

I've done the light springs, make a big bushing, drill the throttle blades, fiddle around with it, and every time I put a few more degrees of base timing in it, it likes it. So...Lock it, set it at 34 or whatever. It will idle at 800 in gear. Response will be sharp and crisp and it sounds happy. Every time.

And I've gone back and tried it the other way because "it's not supposed to be locked and it should have a curve". And the engine tells me "gimme timing".

Anything of mine, or anyone else's who spends the money and lets me, gets a crank trigger and a distributor that just spins the rotor around the cap. Easy, effective, simple.


What do you consider a big, lumpy cam? Asking because I’m not sure how to understand how to determine that.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Locked out distributor [Re: madscientist] #2818035
09/06/20 11:40 PM
09/06/20 11:40 PM
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fredericksburg,va
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My 499 840 hp idled at 650 with instant throttle response in gear, timing all in at idle, but was maybe 10 degrees starting so it wouldn’t kick back. 7320 dominator. No little stuff in this engine, I could put in in gear, get out and walk around and it would just sit there. By the way it’s an engine not a motor, a motor is electric.
Forgot to add total was 37, never moved it to see if it was better anywhere else.

Last edited by cudaman1969; 09/07/20 12:09 AM.
Re: Locked out distributor [Re: cudaman1969] #2818049
09/07/20 01:43 AM
09/07/20 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by cudaman1969
My 499 840 hp idled at 650 with instant throttle response in gear, timing all in at idle, but was maybe 10 degrees starting so it wouldn’t kick back.
Forgot to add total was 37, never moved it to see if it was better anywhere else.
How you going to learn if you don't test, especially testing at a good track work grin stirthepot


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Locked out distributor [Re: Cab_Burge] #2818071
09/07/20 08:48 AM
09/07/20 08:48 AM
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Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
TonyS451 Offline OP
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Thanks for all the great responses. Here’s a little more info:

493 w 12.5-1, Indy -1 heads, Indy single plane, Cam is 268@.050 roller and 1150 Dominator . 5200 8” converter and 4.10 and 295/65 Drag radial. The MSD digital 6 doesn’t have a start retard adjustment , it is supposed to retard timing 20 degrees when the retard function is chosen. It’s either on or off.

I’m seeing pros and cons, and the one pro for sure is that it idles great and very crisp throttle response w locked full timing.

For me the main con is the occasional hard start.

Does anyone have success with the two switch start deal?
How about a higher torque starter? Currently using a summit mopar mini starter


2 kids and a dog
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