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Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: pittsburghracer] #2768167
04/25/20 03:03 PM
04/25/20 03:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,094
Sunnyvale, CA
Jeepmon Offline
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I didnt care too much for the B1 tall deck spacer, so instead of setting pins, or trying to bolt them together, I just port matched and welded them to the bottom of the intake... The end result is great and I never think twice about it now...

If I did the attachments properly, I have included pics of the intake and spacer

intake and spacer.jpgintake spacer milling.jpgIntake Welded.jpg
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: Jeepmon] #2768170
04/25/20 03:06 PM
04/25/20 03:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,094
Sunnyvale, CA
Jeepmon Offline
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Better pic

Intake Welded 1.jpg
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: Jeepmon] #2768196
04/25/20 04:54 PM
04/25/20 04:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,364
Morrow, OH
markz528 Offline
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Originally Posted by Jeepmon
I didnt care too much for the B1 tall deck spacer, so instead of setting pins, or trying to bolt them together, I just port matched and welded them to the bottom of the intake... The end result is great and I never think twice about it now...


Tony Bischoff did a similar thing to mine but he cut them all the way off and welded the spacers to the runners. Came out great. Don't have ant pics.


67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph
67 Coronet 500 (street car) 14.82 @ 94 mph
69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: markz528] #2768203
04/25/20 05:14 PM
04/25/20 05:14 PM
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Posts: 31,261
Oregon
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AndyF Offline
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It seems weird that Koffel has never tooled up an RB version of that intake manifold. Those heads have been around for 30 years and the RB block is 10x more popular than the B block. They would've paid for the tooling many times over by now.

Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: AndyF] #2768214
04/25/20 05:28 PM
04/25/20 05:28 PM
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Posts: 20,279
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pittsburghracer Offline
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Originally Posted by AndyF
It seems weird that Koffel has never tooled up an RB version of that intake manifold. Those heads have been around for 30 years and the RB block is 10x more popular than the B block. They would've paid for the tooling many times over by now.
m




Ya but this way they sold intakes AND spacers. Profit on both ends. Lol.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.38@138.67


Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: AndyF] #2768235
04/25/20 06:29 PM
04/25/20 06:29 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,766
On the parachute mount
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On the parachute mount
Originally Posted by AndyF
It seems weird that Koffel has never tooled up an RB version of that intake manifold. Those heads have been around for 30 years and the RB block is 10x more popular than the B block. They would've paid for the tooling many times over by now.


they did have some made, Gary Robbins has one. Dont know if it is still availible


....BAD A$$ STREET CAR.....
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: Al_Alguire] #2768477
04/26/20 04:28 PM
04/26/20 04:28 PM
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Posts: 16,941
NC
440Jim Offline
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Originally Posted by Al_Alguire
Originally Posted by LA360
They do a tall deck version of the B1 intake these days? The spacers are a pain, I helped a friend with his, we bolted his to the head with sealer.


They only made a run of a few and Scott has no plans to make more of them, no matter how much I beg him too smile

I don't know Scott Koffel, but he can sell the low deck intake for $500 and get another $300 for the spacers, that is an $800 cast RB intake. Good money... blush

Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: 440Jim] #2768709
04/27/20 10:38 AM
04/27/20 10:38 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,073
Tulsa, Ok
WadeMetzinger Offline OP
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Originally Posted by 440Jim
I look forward to hearing how your engine build goes. Are you going to dyno test it?

My block was s/n 426-538 and yours is 426-536, so very close together in Ken's shop. I was happy with his machine work on the block. Bore, deck height, mains, etc.
I expect you will have to clearance the block for the pushrods, my 440-1 heads needed a little more then Ken machined the block. My head opening is traced, but I only needed a little with the grinder right where my pushrod was touching (look carefully at my pic for the grinder).

I may have told you about my experience with the oil to the lifter galleys. Back then his blocks had the oil going around the rear cam bearing to the rear holes for the lifter galley. That special groove around the outside of the cam bearing was a nice restrictor and I didn't need any additional oil restricting for push rod oiling. I put an oil pressure gauge on the main oil supply galley (priority main oiling) and a second gauge on the top/back of the block while priming the system on the engine stand. Are you using spray bars for the B1 heads?

The one set of B1 intake spacers I saw had very small openings, and significant variation from one port to the next. A lot of material to remove, and the angled intake manifold bolt holes and port angles may need a hand grinder for final work after milling the spacers a little closer to size. This is what I saw (pic).


Jim, I'll be careful to check for pushrod clearance as you pointed out.

I've haven't totally decided on plan for head/rocker/push rod oiling. I was originally planning to do do pushrod oiling but I'm now considering just using the standard oiling up through the block and rocker stands through the shafts to the rockers and pushrods. I wouldn't have to buy special lifters or put restrictors in the pushrods. The B1 heads have a 10/32 in the rocker stands so I can put in a restrictor of like .060 and the adjuster screws in the rockers have oil holes in the cup to oil the pushrods. Scott recommended having the #4 cam journal grooved to it would oil all the time and not pulse oil, but also been told the pulse oiling is enough and full time will put too much oil in the top end, so still thinking about that decision. (not planning to use spray bar oiling)

I had plan on going with Isky bushed lifters but I've learned of a different option that people are suggesting are even better design. BAM is making a roller lifter where they coat the pin with some coating that is harder than steel and eliminates the need for needle bearings and bushings. So without those the roller and the pins can be thicker. My understanding is this technology came from NASCAR. Doing some research on this before buying.

Regarding the intake spacers, the new spacers that come from Koffel already have a counter sunk hole in them so you can drill and tap the head for a cap screw so that was a nice improvement.


Wade Metzinger 918-809-0987
71 Cuda 9.28@145 -1s, Pglide
68 Cuda 10.64@124 1.45 60's 318->390 eddys
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Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: WadeMetzinger] #2768710
04/27/20 10:41 AM
04/27/20 10:41 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,073
Tulsa, Ok
WadeMetzinger Offline OP
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Here is a picture of a welded intake for a Drag Week motor I built for a customer 2 years ago. It was already done, i just used it and it worked great. It also had a 1" spacer added to the carb flange. (NOS plumbing done by Monte)

B1 Intake.jpg
Last edited by WadeMetzinger; 04/27/20 10:51 AM.
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: WadeMetzinger] #2768720
04/27/20 11:40 AM
04/27/20 11:40 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,941
NC
440Jim Offline
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Wade, that is a nice looking intake.
Somebody put work into making it look nice as well as work nice.

Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: 440Jim] #2768731
04/27/20 12:34 PM
04/27/20 12:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 352
Sidney,Ohio
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Here is one of the RB cast intakes

RB Intake.jpg
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: challenger1320] #2768754
04/27/20 02:26 PM
04/27/20 02:26 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 634
MD-USA
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MD-USA
Originally Posted by challenger1320
Here is one of the RB cast intakes


What does one of those intakes weigh? Looks plenty heavy.

Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: AndyF] #2768786
04/27/20 04:28 PM
04/27/20 04:28 PM
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Posts: 19,610
Las Vegas
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Originally Posted by AndyF
It seems weird that Koffel has never tooled up an RB version of that intake manifold. Those heads have been around for 30 years and the RB block is 10x more popular than the B block. They would've paid for the tooling many times over by now.


They do and they have, on a very limited basis with no plans to mass produce them or likely even making any limited runs of them.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: Al_Alguire] #2768979
04/28/20 06:46 AM
04/28/20 06:46 AM
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Posts: 352
Sidney,Ohio
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Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: challenger1320] #2769783
04/30/20 10:22 AM
04/30/20 10:22 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,073
Tulsa, Ok
WadeMetzinger Offline OP
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Here are a few pictures of the spacers and how we got them all aligned. The spacers from Koffel's already have a provision for counter sunk bolt but we just used a dowel so it could just be slide on and off/

Intake3.jpgIntake2.jpgIntake1.jpg
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: WadeMetzinger] #2774192
05/13/20 12:02 PM
05/13/20 12:02 PM
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Posts: 2,073
Tulsa, Ok
WadeMetzinger Offline OP
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I finally received the pistons, they were ordered back in Feb but COVID-19 has held them up…

Now I’m just waiting on the GRP rods, they were ordered at the same time and GRP never shut down but I’m guessing they slowed down and we did get a call asking if we wanted Chevy or Mopar beam angle so I’m thinking they had them built and then had to scrap them and start over…

Decided not to coat them, there are some benefits but not sure they are worth the cost.

Upgraded the pins to H-13

Vertical Gas ported

.043/.043 rings (could have gone smaller but I'm not running vacuum pump so I thought this would give me some smaller ring pack benefits and not get in trouble going to thin and having to run vacuum pump)
- edit, I ordered .043 . 043 but it looks like they made them .9 .9 and 3mm... doh! the oil ring is 10# so I need to call Total Seal and find out if that will work without vacuum pump.
-->They said 10# wouldn't work so they are sending me a different oil ring expander to increase the pressure.

Update - When we ordered pistons we were shooting for 12.5:1 but I'm only getting about 11.5:1 and we think the problem could be that valve relief number they provided on the piston card, pretty hard to believe that there is a -13cc in just the valve relief. We were expecting 3 to 4 so that would cause me to loose a point of compression so I'm going to cc the pistons later today.
[list]
[*]10.725 deck
[*]4.360" bore
[*]4.25" stroke
[*]7.100" rod
[*]1.480" piston compression height (so i think that adds up to .020 in the hole)
[*].040 head gasket
[*]-13 cc piston valve reliefs

Pistons1.jpgPistons2.jpgPistons3.jpgPistons4.jpg
Last edited by WadeMetzinger; 05/13/20 01:38 PM.
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: WadeMetzinger] #2774194
05/13/20 12:06 PM
05/13/20 12:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,073
Tulsa, Ok
WadeMetzinger Offline OP
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I have been running the Isky's with the bushing and most people consider them the best option over needle bearing roller lifters. I did some research and found out from several people and some serious engine builders that now the BAM lifters with the DLC pins are even superior to the bushing.

DLC is Diamond-Like-Carbon Laser Coated, I pulled this from the web "What is a Diamond-Like-Carbon (DLC) Coating? DLC coatings offer a unique combination of high hardness and low friction coefficient → 'the hardness of diamond and the lubricity of graphite'.

So now you don't have to worry about needle bearings failing or the bushing getting beat out. My research is showing this are our best option without going exotic. I got these for $1,130 to my door, which is about $300 less than Isky bushed lifters.

BAM1.jpgBAM2.jpgBAM3.jpg
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: WadeMetzinger] #2774237
05/13/20 01:51 PM
05/13/20 01:51 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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I would mock up one or two pistons, rods and crankshaft at TDC,one on each side, and seal the piston tops to the cylinder wall( I use a small tip on my handheld grease gun) and then pour it to find out exactly the volume in each cylinders is to be able to figure out exactly what the compression ratio will be scope
I use that method on Hemiroid motors, I'll move the piston down (I use a dial indicator to get the down travel) so the dome is below the deck by .030 or .050 and then use my plastic CC plate to fill the bore up, I'll use the math for a flat top piston down the same amount in the cylinder and subtract the measure amount to get the dome volume up scope
Big C.I. motors are a lot easier to get to much compression, unlike little C.I. motors that need big domes to get decent racing compression ratios whiney


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: Cab_Burge] #2774283
05/13/20 04:51 PM
05/13/20 04:51 PM
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Posts: 19,610
Las Vegas
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BAM has a very good reputation with some very big names in the industry. I planned on trying them next time we build something. Having said that I have run Isky bushed red zones for a very long time with no failures. But I believe they are a bit more $$


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: WadeMetzinger] #2774307
05/13/20 05:54 PM
05/13/20 05:54 PM
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NC
440Jim Offline
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Originally Posted by WadeMetzinger
Update - When we ordered pistons we were shooting for 12.5:1 but I'm only getting about 11.5:1 and we think the problem could be that valve relief number they provided on the piston card, pretty hard to believe that there is a -13cc in just the valve relief. We were expecting 3 to 4 so that would cause me to loose a point of compression so I'm going to cc the pistons later today.
Back in 2014 when I had custom Diamond pistons for my 440-1 engine with 4.500" bore, the valve relief's were 8.2cc (Diamond's number). And my valve reliefs were smaller and not as deep as yours. I was expecting about 6cc, but that is what the sheet said.

Intake: 0.290" depth, 2.3" dia relief
Exh: 0.265" depth, 1.84" dia relief

Diamond_valve_relief_specs.JPG

1993 Daytona, 5.50 at 130mph (1/8) 1.19 sixty ft (PG). Link to 572 B1 - Part 1
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