I have seen and read about multiple younger and middle age people that are DYING (alot are healthcare workers) from Covid-19...with NO pre-existing conditions, before they got infected. You are correct in your statement that says: "People should take responsibility for their own health and safety. Especially the most vulnerable of us."
Each one of us needs to take extra care not to get infected, or..... to infect anyone else. Like I said before...the economy can be brought back to life...a human life once gone, is gone for good, and is not coming back. When your dead....you are DEAD FOREVER.

Map showing nursing home %deaths by state:

https://freopp.org/the-covid-19-nursing-home-crisis-by-the-numbers-3a47433c3f70

Notice differences between OH, KY and TN for example.

To get number of deaths per state go to

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/coronavirus/country/united-states/

From above report

We have a better idea of that now that we have more data. Initially the information we had was that it was highly infectious, and had a ~3% death rate. Those aren't numbers that we look at and say "hopefully it won't be that bad here". We do something about it, then re-evaluate when we have better numbers. Otherwise we have an even bigger pile of dead people that could have been prevented.

We do need to open up, but we also need people to stop being morons and wear masks in public. Or at least stop equating wearing masks with tyranny (no shoes, no shirt, no service, no problem. No mask, no service but MUH RIGHTS )

And just because younger people are surviving, doesn't mean they're thriving after a serious case, or that there won't be lifelong health effects from it. An anecdote from a different forum; this guys grandpa got the flu in 1918. It damaged his lungs such that for the rest of his life he couldn't do any strenuous work or exercise. That sucks.

360V thank you for explaining the adjustment.
At this time I feel we are being played to create uncertainty rife to do precisely what we do here, well seeded by the A-Z press and all their variants bombarding us as we're fertilized with bs. Guess what we did in the garden today?
Some givens, according to "official" data, US has more cases and deaths than anywhere else on the planet. We are now releasing the hordes. Humans and especially us, have been trained to line up and make the mad dash to be the first, the most, fastest, best,... I'm not surprised the social pump was primed and and the nozzle opened full stream. We're supposed to be tempered by the now invisible Doctors as the best possible team has been dismembered with the pieces tossed to the media wolves. Someone has to stand up and be the voice or reason that we can understand. A steady course can get us through this. A smoke filled room full of mirrors and dead ends is not sustainable.

It's interesting, but seems complicated to compare a time when everything is shut down vs usual times when everybody is active. It seems like in 'normal' times, if suddenly everybody stayed indoors and kept to themselves, then deaths would go down. Heck, there would even be less flu, common colds, etc. going around. Plus, with nobody driving there would be no deaths from car accidents. Less industrial accidents with less people working. Perhaps 'natural' deaths would be the same, but everything else would theoretically stop.

What I am trying to understand is why people seem to be doubting that there is something unusual about this virus, like it's all some sort of state-driven conspiracy theory designed to control their lives. IMHO, no politician of any stripes wants to shut down their economy as it creates great difficulties for everybody, from those who follow it, to those who have to manage it. And, even if it were some kind of crazy nutjob conspiracy that came true, it must be a conspiracy that the whole entire world is in on. Cripes, we can't get governments to agree on almost anything, so why would the entire world go lock-step on something like this if there weren't some necessity to it?

I dunno... logically it doesn't stand up.

I'm curious as to what kind of point you think I was trying to make. I only want to understand why normal intelligent people want to doubt that this virus exists.

Whether politicians of all stripes overestimated or underestimated its effects is yet to be seen, I think. To place judgement on it right now, as things are just opening up again is premature IMHO. Wait a year, and let's look back then and see how it went. But the fact remains that something had to be done...

As I mentioned in another post, this has affected the entire world, who have had various levels of success in dealing with it. Some have done really well, some have done horribly. History will tell us who did the best and who did the worst.

But for people to suggest that it doesn't exist, or that it's just like some normal flu bug sounds like people who want to deny the truth IMHO. Then the whole other aspect that comes out, when I see some people blame everything on one political party... their motives start to become more clear.

IMHO, both parties have done good things, both have done bad. All levels of government have done both well and poorly. But one thing I have noticed is that all levels of government, both parties included, have become very dysfunctional, mostly due to choosing to fight one another rather than working together. Both sides and all levels have not cohesively worked together to accomplish a common goal, which should have been to understand the virus, decide the best method to deal with it, check how they are doing, and then adjust their methods/strategies as they learned more (classic PDCA for anyone involved in project management). Instead, they all just fight one another, try to destroy the others' reputations, create a bunch of lies and confusion to hide the facts, etc. It's shameful, really, and all parties at all levels should really look inward and try to discover how to fix this. But they won't... they'll just blame the other side, and their supporters will carry on the same level of dysfunctional infighting right down to the lowest levels, like freakin internet forums, like we're all reading right here. Keep it up and the country is going to fall apart, while the other powerful nations in the world are standing back and watching, ready to take advantage.

This is why I hate politics, and why I wish the mods would clean the politics out of this thread... even this very post if they wish. It disgusts me.

So Covid mostly hates WW2 vets and the "Greatest Generation", so who cares is the thinking?

What a country!

Knowing what we know now then NY should've shut down public transportation at least a few weeks earlier than they did. They should've also locked down their nursing homes much sooner and much tighter. Some parts of the country didn't need to shut down at all. We still have counties with zero reported infections.

Because of the quarantine?

I suspect that you are smart enough to know the answer yet prefer to be a stubborn person.
No, because the virus was an exaggerated scam.

Do you believe in Karma?

There is no right or wring answer here, just curious.

Probably not. Our county has 2 towns that straddle Interstate 57. We have the area's only Wal-Mart Supercenter, a large farm supply, and the area's federal building. About the only businesses that are shut down are the mom and pop ones. All of the national chain type businesses are, and have been open.

Our county has had 11 diagnosed infections to date with most having already recovered at home. And there have been no deaths in our county related to Coronavirus. In fact, of the 15 southernmost counties here in southern Illinois, I believe 12 have no confirmed deaths. But $hitcago (which is 300 miles away) has us shut down. They have a real problem there. But cannot get a handle on it despite fairly drastic measures.

There is a difference between the rural and the urban areas. And between hard hit and largely unscathed areas. Shouldn't the response reflect that reality? A one-size-fits-all approach does little more than breed contempt.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-05-nursing-homes-ground-covid-.html


Sample quote

In fact, experts like Taylor think testing at nursing homes needs to be for everybody, not just people with symptoms, to get ahead of the curve.

Staffing issues

"That includes the workers," Taylor said. "Workers in nursing homes are at risk of occupational exposure. They also are a risk of bringing infection into the nursing home from the community and taking it out."

Funding for additional staff at nursing homes also would help bolster infection control, experts said.

It takes a lot of time to put on a mask, gown up and properly wash hands when going from patient to patient, said Eleanor Schildwachter McConnell, an associate professor in the Duke University School of Nursing.

"It stands to reason that if you're starting out with a very thin level of staffing, it's going to be hard to take those precautions and continue to provide very demanding care," McConnell said, noting that more hands on deck will take the pressure off.

Unfortunately, once people start testing positive at a nursing home, staff have tended to start walking off the job, Robinson-Lane said.

"Nursing homes are already challenged with staffing concerns, and we've seen a chance of 15% reduction in staff after COVID patients come in," Robinson-Lane said.

End quote

Even before COVID-19 the average third shift at a USA nursing home had 40% average absenteeism.
Nursing Home Management typically reported 20% in prior years on the “honor system” but a recent Federal law change allowed HHS to have access to IRS FICA tax records, that proved the actual missed 3rd shift hours were at 40%.

ibrutinib,
an already available blood cancer drug is getting a clinical trial to see if it can treat COVID-19

https://www.dana-farber.org/newsroo...-blood-cancer-drug-in-covid-19-patients/

Sample quote

Ibrutinib is an oral drug used to treat several B-cell malignancies and chronic graft-versus-host disease. Treon and colleagues recently published in Blood a report on six Waldenström’s patients who had been taking ibrutinib for several years and who had recently contracted COVID-19. All the patients experienced cough and fever. Five of the patients, who were taking a standard dose of ibrutinib, had no shortness of breath, did not need to be hospitalized, and steadily improved.

The sixth patient, who had been taking a lower dose of ibrutinib because of side effects, experienced worsening symptoms of shortness of breath and initially was taken off ibrutinib and treated with other drugs. After 10 days he was placed on a ventilator, and doctors decided to re-start ibrutinib at the standard dose the other patients had been taking. He rapidly improved, was removed from the ventilator, and on day 14 was discharged from the hospital to his home, where he continues to do well on the standard dose of ibrutinib. “These experiences have given us the inspiration to do prospective randomized trials of ibrutinib and a similar drug, zanubrutinib in COVID-19 patients in respiratory distress,” said Treon.

End quote

It's difficult to have a thread as this with some reference to what the politicians are doing. I applaud the mods for allowing civil exchange.
It's pretty clear we need some smart relaxing of shutdown with a view of how areas are doing.
It's easy to read an see why some areas are not harboring a lot of cases. Yet some very rural areas could or can be a breeding ground (to wit: walmart in a very rural area noted above, and an Assembly of God Church in Redwood Valley or the Small community of Covelo Ca.). You all know areas in your State with few cases and there is generally a fair way to figure why. It's those areas citizens to have their officials carry their messages of need to the county and state level. That is how government works.
For now the system is limping along without leadership or guidance. My gut feeling it's the fear of being politically ostracized. Until some form of structure and guidance emerges we're going to have divide because the media only has to satisfy their base.
I think most people realize name-calling and lack of civility have no place in generating consensus. We here can do well to realize we can come up with the means to agree, if even to disagree. We'll get through this being smart, and civil to each other.

Barber shops are opening back here this week so that will be nice. My hair was starting to get a little out of control. No idea on what the lines will be like, could be too big of a hassle even to deal with it.

I just read that to my wife, and she rolled her eyes.

I'm more polite.

Meanwhile, in Brazil, flights to the U.S. have been banned due to that scam:

https://news.yahoo.com/white-house-brings-forward-brazil-223538485.html

The reaction to the virus is the scam, not the virus itself.
Again, I don't think that you are stupid, just stubborn and wrong.
If a mystery virus was even rumored to have a 50 % fatality rate and only affected white guys between 40 and 60, I'd have been worried.
This was never anything close to that.
People in charge of dispensing information have been wrong far more than they have been right. To me, that casts a serious shadow of doubt over everything.
One as intelligent as you think that you are should have more brains than to blindly trust these scare tactics.
It has been shown that my side is resistant to trusting the government and your side is far more willing to do so. It is abundantly clear why you hold the position that you do and it isn't based in common sense.
I'll bet you have a government job where your income is unaffected by all of this. You surely are not a business owner,

I cringe every time posts take that accusatory judgemental twist. I believe the same concepts might be better delivered with tact.
Our country is poised a difficult task.
Not to appear posting ad nauseam - without a good plan everybody develops their own that often serves their best interests. Living where we do it's our elected officials duty to, and it's their oath to US to defend the constitution. The preamble of which lays out it's fundamental purposes and guiding principles. Business concern are laid out not in the constitution, but delved off to Congress. Granted there is several amendments, and supreme court rulings that pertain to business, yet no specific requirement for our officials to make decisions over people (general welfare) that favors business. I would not say that we are anywhere close to having major issues with this, but it's likely why so much mud wrestling and slinging is occurring between States/Governors, the people and the Federal Govt.. I believe it started early on when the States Orders for PPE were cancelled and redirected to Federal stock to be shuffled out as saw fit. Now, with cases low with Ford shipping out huge quantities of ventilators and others shipping face shields, coveralls/gowns and masks wouldn't it be nice if the States were paying for what they ordered rather than to be stored who knows where. Perhaps destine for surplus auctions? Our Administrative legal teams are holding the reins that are hard to hold with all the hand wringing going on. I would love to be able to see what is going on behing closed doors.
It's not a scam, it's disorganization.