Aluminum Cylinder Heads - Opinions please?
#2769340
04/29/20 01:12 AM
04/29/20 01:12 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,293 Tucson AZ,
MadMopars
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,293
Tucson AZ,
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I'm thinking it's about time to round up a set of aluminum heads for a 451 build that I've been dragging my feet on. I'll post general build details below but I guess I'm looking for suggestions on what heads would be the best bang for the buck. I've always had a thing for ported cast iron heads but this time I'm thinking it's time to take the leap. So, given the options out there, what do you guys recommend for the application? Pros and cons to each?
73 Roadrunner "400/451" 440 forged crank and LY rods Ross Pistons. (12.5:1 + Compression) MP 312/590 Cam Weiand Tunnel Ram with 660's or M1 Single Plane 4 Speed Transmission Dana 60 w/ 4.88 gears
FWIW, I'm not married to this cam and may consider going roller instead. Also, I will eventually being spraying the motor although how much and what method has yet to be determined. If I stay single plane, I will most likely start with a Zex plate kit I've got sitting here. If I go with the tunnel ram, I'll most likely end up direct port but that's another topic.
Anyhow, let me know what you guys think. Appreciate the help as always! - Trent
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Re: Aluminum Cylinder Heads - Opinions please?
[Re: MadMopars]
#2769342
04/29/20 03:12 AM
04/29/20 03:12 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,292 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,292
Bend,OR USA
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Do you want good cheap aluminum 440 type heads or great for making power aluminum heads? If cheap 440 headsthe Edlbrock E street heads are probably the best deal for the money, they do have small combustion chambers so you may end up with more compression than 12.5 to 1 if you want more power you need better heads like the Indy SR M.W., Indy 440-1 CNC ported or the Trick Flow 270 heads with M.W. size intake ports or better I have a set of B1 originals and another set of B!-MC heads that I'm hoping to make over 900 HP on E 85 on both large C.I. motors Speed cost money, how fast do you want to go and how hard do you want to work
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Aluminum Cylinder Heads - Opinions please?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2769375
04/29/20 08:36 AM
04/29/20 08:36 AM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,495 Shelby mi.
JAKE68
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,495
Shelby mi.
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What cab said. But I would definitely buck up with better rods. Your asking for trouble with those old rods.
JAKES AUTOMOTIVE
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Re: Aluminum Cylinder Heads - Opinions please?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2769376
04/29/20 08:36 AM
04/29/20 08:36 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,385 Az
69hemibeep
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,385
Az
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Do you want good cheap aluminum 440 type heads or great for making power aluminum heads? If cheap 440 headsthe Edlbrock E street heads are probably the best deal for the money, they do have small combustion chambers so you may end up with more compression than 12.5 to 1 if you want more power you need better heads like the Indy SR M.W., Indy 440-1 CNC ported or the Trick Flow 270 heads with M.W. size intake ports or better I have a set of B1 originals and another set of B!-MC heads that I'm hoping to make over 900 HP on E 85 on both large C.I. motors Speed cost money, how fast do you want to go and how hard do you want to work If you go E street they come in both 75-84 cc chambers
1969 Hemi Roadrunner 2nd owner
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Re: Aluminum Cylinder Heads - Opinions please?
[Re: 69hemibeep]
#2769382
04/29/20 08:57 AM
04/29/20 08:57 AM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,700 Wichita
GY3
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,700
Wichita
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Plenty of great threads on aluminum heads here if you do a search.
The two things that stand out to me are the stock rods and the 4.88 gear.
If you are running nitrous you need a lot higher gear and the rods will crumble like Keebler cookies.
'63 Dodge 330 11.19 @ 121 mph Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs. 10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
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Re: Aluminum Cylinder Heads - Opinions please?
[Re: MadMopars]
#2769385
04/29/20 09:34 AM
04/29/20 09:34 AM
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 883 Missouri
jwb123
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 883
Missouri
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I think you should look more at the HP goals of your engine. There are several rules or formulas but one is, HP = 0.25714 CFM x No. of Cylinders. In other words it takes so much CFM of flow to support so much Horsepower, so what is your goal? Next what is the RPM range you want to run, or that you have parts to support? Runner length and size is determined by how many RPM you want to run. Pick your HP and RPM, then pick best bang for the buck in cylinder heads that have the correct flow and port size. Good engine software, makes these decisions easy to make. After you pick the heads, then the camshaft, intake, and headers to match the heads gives the best results. I don't build lots of engines, but I get so many guys who collect a pile of parts, and then expect me to make them 800HP. Then I look at them and say I can not make 800HP with these parts, because you selected parts that don't complement each other. So do you build the engine, and they are disappointed with power output, or do you tell them to take it home, and they are disappointed because you won't build it? Most of the time it is not an issue with bolting it together and reliability, it is quality results.
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Re: Aluminum Cylinder Heads - Opinions please?
[Re: MadMopars]
#2769386
04/29/20 09:36 AM
04/29/20 09:36 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,210 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,210
New York
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That's not a nitrous cam. Need better rods.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Aluminum Cylinder Heads - Opinions please?
[Re: polyspheric]
#2769392
04/29/20 09:47 AM
04/29/20 09:47 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,083 Niles , Ohio
therocks
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,083
Niles , Ohio
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I run the Ross domes in my 440 for 12.5 also.Just remember that Eddys with angle plugs will hit.You have to have the pistons fly cut to clear is what machinst and also Nick at Compuflo when he was alive>I went with the Stealths from 440 Source.Mine were one of the first sets sold.I did change springs,locks,and retainers for my big solid cam Been on for years and no problems.Rocky
Chrysler Firepower
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Re: Aluminum Cylinder Heads - Opinions please?
[Re: roadrunninMark]
#2769436
04/29/20 12:02 PM
04/29/20 12:02 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,558 Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,558
Rittman Ohio
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I run Indy EZ's on my 493 but If I were building it over again today I would have gone with Trickflows. They are a much nicer casting and they would require less cleanup to make them really nice. Either way I would buy them from someone who knows race cylinder heads to give them the once over before you install them. They look like you could just bolt them on out of the box but it's best to have them checked before you bolt them on I would really re-consider the choice of rods though and you will need to balance it anyway with those light Ross pistons. Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy 493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow 5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box Dana 60
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Re: Aluminum Cylinder Heads - Opinions please?
[Re: MadMopars]
#2769696
04/30/20 12:07 AM
04/30/20 12:07 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,293 Tucson AZ,
MadMopars
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,293
Tucson AZ,
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Thanks for the input guys. As I sit here in my chair this evening, I realize I have alot to work out still. I suppose if I was going to start working the math backwards, I would be looking for 10.90's. According to my rough napkin calculations, I would need approximately 550+HP / 270CFM. I'm not an expert, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn last night so bare with me, but I'm not sure that's not a tall order for this motor N/A. Obviously reducing weight and/or spraying would get me there but if I do decide to use nitrous, I would be hoping for better than 10.90s but that's a different subject... Back to the heads, it looks like 270 CFM isn't asking alot from many of the aluminum heads I'm seeing out there but that only seems to be a fraction of the equation. From plug angle as mentioned above, port location, intake runner cc's, valvetrain interchange, etc, I still have alot to research... Let's say that I already had the short block machined years ago, (because I did...) and already had it line honed with stock main caps using ARP studs, balanced with the "LY" rods using ARP bolts, square decked, etc. what would be a realistic HP and/or RPM without going back in and swapping the rods or main caps? Assuming a target of 550HP and I assume a max RPM of 6500, (again, guessing) where does this put me with regard to optimal intake runner CC's as I feel like that's the next variable I need to determine. While I would not mind utilizing a head that is capable of flowing more in the future, I hate to shoot myself in the foot with to big of a runner in the interim. That being said, thoughts on port size, when to go Max wedge, etc? Anyhow, let me know what you guys think. I appreciate the help on this. I've screwed with cast heads for so long I never ventured out into all the variables associated with aftermarket heads. It's a whole new world to me. I'm sure I'll be glad I did when it's all said and done though. -Trent
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Re: Aluminum Cylinder Heads - Opinions please?
[Re: MadMopars]
#2769709
04/30/20 03:52 AM
04/30/20 03:52 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,470 Sydney,Australia
tex013
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,470
Sydney,Australia
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Heres my 2 cents . Its a low deck so i would go tf240 or cnc stealth . TFlow would probably make a little more power . I went 10.90s with cnc stealths and a snaller ft cam , 258@050 - .520 nett lift but was auto , 4.1 gear .
Run what you have and see where you end up
Tex
New best ET 10.259@129.65 . New best MPH 130.32 Finally fitted a solid cam, stepped it up a bit more 3690lbs through the mufflers New World block 3780lbs 10.278@130.80 . Wowser 10.253@130.24 footbraking from 1500rpm Power by Tex's Automotive
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Re: Aluminum Cylinder Heads - Opinions please?
[Re: MadMopars]
#2769713
04/30/20 06:14 AM
04/30/20 06:14 AM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,581 N/E, Michigan
RATTRAP
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,581
N/E, Michigan
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My I run a 440 source stroked 383 its around 489 CID Approx. 10.9:1 compression, Indy 440-sr heads race port. this is a heavy car approx 3600 Lbs. The car has run 11.87 @ 126 mph with a 60 ft of 2.6s which has been an ongoing problem with the car (4 speed) If you do the math this car should be in the mid 10s if it ever hooked up, The Indy heads didn't come with out a lot of work, they are not a bolt and go head. Push rod clearance was one of the issues and the valley plate sealing to the heads was another, but when done the heads make great power and and all your stock parts will bolt on. they can be opened up to a max wedge port depending on the intake you want to run, I run a mechanical 6 pack setup so im running standard size port. Its been together for over ten years mostly street with a little strip time for fun.
Last edited by RATTRAP; 04/30/20 06:15 AM.
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Re: Aluminum Cylinder Heads - Opinions please?
[Re: RATTRAP]
#2769726
04/30/20 08:44 AM
04/30/20 08:44 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,197 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,197
PA.
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In this day and age the last aluminum head I would consider would be the cnc’d Stealth head. There are way to many better options out there today. The Stealths are a great option for the guys wanting to keep the stock appearing look so it will always have its use. If you are looking for performance ProMax, Edelbrock, Speedmaster, etc can all easily flow over 300 cfm. Indy Sr’s, 240 TrickFlow and a few others will get you even more. If you want to rotate the earth you can step up to 270 TrickFlow, Victor heads ( probably my last choice) ported 440-1 heads will flow over 370 cfm in the right hands or even more if you want to get away from the 2.19 valve which I am currently doing. If you hit the lottery 400 plus cfm options are out there. Lots of great choices for us Mopar guys in today’s market.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Aluminum Cylinder Heads - Opinions please?
[Re: MadMopars]
#2769728
04/30/20 09:00 AM
04/30/20 09:00 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,907 S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,907
S.E. Michigan
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Well if you want straight spark plugs for header clearance to use parts you already have, as best I know that narrows it way down to only two, Stealth and MP "aluminum 452" but I'm not sure if MP even still sells them as most of the product line has been killed off.
Stealth tries hard to appear stock, partially succeeds, and partially fails because it doesn't have a fake heat crossover. That is one area I always thought they should really change (but maybe that comment will be deleted/how dare I criticize an advertiser/whatever).
I've used regular edelbrock RPM heads on my low deck for several years, and haven't had any huge issues with the angled plugs. Couple different sets of headers, on one set I had to work two tubes very slightly for clearance but nothing drastic. I also had to make sure I didn't install the most gigantic plug wires and boots I could find, as so many seem to want.
Any of them should flow enough to do what you want.
You know I think it all depends on your perspective, budget, and what work you're willing to do.
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: Aluminum Cylinder Heads - Opinions please?
[Re: ZIPPY]
#2769735
04/30/20 09:22 AM
04/30/20 09:22 AM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,030 ohio
67mprfan
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,030
ohio
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1 thing I didn't see mentioned was headers for your low deck so just adding more for you to think about is how big do you want to go to take advantage of the extra flow from let's say a MW head
71 demon stock stroke 440/indy ez-1 running 10.10 @ 132.14 mph in the 1/4 and 6.36 @ 107.46 mph in the 1/8 not in the same weekend but It did it then I sold it. 67 Belvedere that worked it's way in the 10's
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Re: Aluminum Cylinder Heads - Opinions please?
[Re: ZIPPY]
#2769737
04/30/20 09:26 AM
04/30/20 09:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,094 central texas
krautrock
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,094
central texas
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Well if you want straight spark plugs for header clearance to use parts you already have...MP "aluminum 452" but I'm not sure if MP even still sells them as most of the product line has been killed off.
i think these are the MP452 heads. it says they are straight plugs and they list a MP part number for cross reference. they are also on clearance... https://www.manciniracing.com/edperpmcyhe9.html
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Re: Aluminum Cylinder Heads - Opinions please?
[Re: krautrock]
#2769744
04/30/20 09:40 AM
04/30/20 09:40 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,907 S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,907
S.E. Michigan
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Yeah, I think Mancini has had a few batches of those + others made without any logos on the end.
Worth a call to see.
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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