Starter relay question
#2764817
04/16/20 09:31 PM
04/16/20 09:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 733 Nampa, ID
MadMatt
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My 1970 Dart didn't want to start but it did when I jumped the starter relay. So I got a new relay and I have the same issue. I was checking wires with my multi-meter and found that the black ground wire on the relay is carrying nearly 12 volts. I ran a temporary ground from the lug on the relay and it started right up.
Anyone have any idea where to look to see how the ground wire is getting voltage? Could it be a problem in the ignition switch?
UPDATE: I just discovered the lights in my gauge cluster aren't working. Could a short in the dash pass voltage to the starter relay ground??
Last edited by MadMatt; 04/16/20 10:54 PM.
Some see the glass as half empty, some see the glass as half full. I just drink straight out of the bottle.
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Re: Starter relay question
[Re: MadMatt]
#2764832
04/16/20 09:59 PM
04/16/20 09:59 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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Circle Track
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You jumped the "G" terminal to ground & it started? If so see why the downstream end of the black wire ain't being grounded when you put it park/neutral.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Starter relay question
[Re: RapidRobert]
#2764846
04/16/20 10:23 PM
04/16/20 10:23 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 733 Nampa, ID
MadMatt
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You jumped the "G" terminal to ground & it started? If so see why the downstream end of the black wire ain't being grounded when you put it park/neutral. Are you suggesting it is the neutral safety switch? I can check that, but would a problem with the neutral safety switch put voltage into the wire? Does the neutral safety switch carry voltage? UPDATE: I just discovered the lights in my gauge cluster aren't working. Could a short in the dash pass voltage to the starter relay ground??
Last edited by MadMatt; 04/16/20 10:55 PM.
Some see the glass as half empty, some see the glass as half full. I just drink straight out of the bottle.
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Re: Starter relay question
[Re: MadMatt]
#2764886
04/17/20 01:22 AM
04/17/20 01:22 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,122 Auburn WA
Dave_J
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Auburn WA
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You jumped the "G" terminal to ground & it started? If so see why the downstream end of the black wire ain't being grounded when you put it park/neutral. Are you suggesting it is the neutral safety switch? I can check that, but would a problem with the neutral safety switch put voltage into the wire? Does the neutral safety switch carry voltage?UPDATE: I just discovered the lights in my gauge cluster aren't working. Could a short in the dash pass voltage to the starter relay ground?? The neutral switch is just a switched hard ground. The wire going to it will have 12 Volts waiting for that ground to short it and the relay will close.. That black wire at the starter relay when removed should show a dead short looking at the neutral switch. If you do not see that dead short, the wire or the switch is defective. Is your neutral switch in the transmission or on the shifter inside the C0ckpit? Your Dash light issues are something else most likely.
Retired, US ARMY 1973-1994 ASE mechanic, Electrical 1994-1997 Retired GTE/VERIZON/FRONTIER 1997-2015
Posting cheap tech help (CRAP) here since Nov 97, 1000's of posts, some may be good.
03 Suzuki Burgman 650(Burger King) Scooter 65 Formula S Cuda 78 Little Red Express Truck 98 Buick Regal (wifes car)
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Re: Starter relay question
[Re: Mattax]
#2764953
04/17/20 10:13 AM
04/17/20 10:13 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645 Phila. Pa.
Mattax
top fuel
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top fuel
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Phila. Pa.
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Indirect answer to Dash lights. Normally when the engine is turning the alternator, the alternator supplies power around 14 Volts. When that's not happening, the battery supplies power around 12+ Volts. Voltage is like pressure in a water or piped air system. Amperage is a measurement of flow like gallons per minute for a liquid, or cfm for air.
This is important when trying to figure out what is happening. The ammeter shows current flowing from the battery. If any circuit is completed, the needle should move. It will move tiny amount for dash light, more for dome light and brake lights, and so forth, Voltage (pressure) is always present if a wire is connected to the battery positive. It doesn't matter if current is flowing. So two different tools.
The dash lights get their power through the fusebox withough going through the key switch. That circuit is always hot. It is controlled through the headlight switch., The dome light is also always hot, as is the dome light itself. It's controlled by any switch on the return line, including a portion of the headlight switch. Any one of those switches completing the circuit to ground. All wires connected to the battery positive, including the alternator output wire are always hot. If any of them are accidently grounded the battery will discharge big time! So be careful!
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Re: Starter relay question
[Re: Mattax]
#2764965
04/17/20 10:37 AM
04/17/20 10:37 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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Circle Track
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Lincoln Nebraska
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take the black wire off of the G terminal on the relay. connect the G male terminal to a good ground with a jumper wire. trans in park or neutral. turn the key & see if it cranks. If no go the NSS at the trans or shifter ain't grounding it in park/neutral like it should which you are duplicating that with the jumper. the black wire from relay down to the NSS could have a break (open) in the wire but not likely.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Starter relay question
[Re: MadMatt]
#2766429
04/20/20 06:26 PM
04/20/20 06:26 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 733 Nampa, ID
MadMatt
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Thanks to everyone for all the help and suggestions so far. I still have the same issues but I have some more information. First, it is definitely NOT the neutral safety switch. I'm sure of this because I don't have one. I converted the car to a Tremec TKO600 and we decided to forego the safety switch on the transmission and just use the one in my brain.
I have some auxiliary gauges that are wired into the lighting circuit for the dash cluster gauges. The auxiliary gauges light up and dim when I turn the headlight switch, but the OEM ones don't.
Any ideas out there?
Some see the glass as half empty, some see the glass as half full. I just drink straight out of the bottle.
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Re: Starter relay question
[Re: MadMatt]
#2766442
04/20/20 07:12 PM
04/20/20 07:12 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,289 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
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Posts: 12,289
Fulton County, PA
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it is definitely NOT the neutral safety switch. I'm sure of this because I don't have one That would have been good information to have earlier. I ran a temporary ground from the lug on the relay and it started right up. Is this still the case? No NSS means you still have to ground the G (ground) terminal to make the relay work. A simple loop to a known good ground will work. The I terminal should be the start wire from the switch (yellow) and get hot in the start position.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Starter relay question
[Re: MadMatt]
#2766595
04/21/20 08:31 AM
04/21/20 08:31 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,973 MI, usa
dvw
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MI, usa
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Thanks to everyone for all the help and suggestions so far. I still have the same issues but I have some more information. First, it is definitely NOT the neutral safety switch. I'm sure of this because I don't have one. I converted the car to a Tremec TKO600 and we decided to forego the safety switch on the transmission and just use the one in my brain.
Any ideas out there? Manual transmission starter relays were available in 2 styles. Early, where the ground lug in question was soldered directly to the case. Thus that circuit was always grounded. Late, where the circuit in question went to a clutch switch. The switch grounded when the clutch was depressed. So you had to push the clutch to crank. Grounding that circuit is all you need if you don't desire the clutch option. The light issue is not related. Doug
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Re: Starter relay question
[Re: dragon slayer]
#2766643
04/21/20 10:39 AM
04/21/20 10:39 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,455 A collage of whims
topside
Too Many Posts
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A collage of whims
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I know Matt's car a bit, he's had it for maybe 30 years. It was converted from AT to the Tremec several years back and has been driven a fair amount since. But IIRC it does sit for periods of time in his home garage. That tells me something has changed or deteriorated. I've had a starter relay with a loose terminal that would occasionally no-start; wiggle the connection, and it would work. Matt, look at the other end/connection of whatever grounded the relay before, including the wire itself. Could even be a faulty replacement relay, ground shouldn't be carrying 12V, right ?
Dash lights: so the dimmer rheostat works the A/M gauge lighting OK, but not the cluster lamps ? I'd look at whatever the different routing for those two is, including the big connector at the back of the cluster circuit board.
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Re: Starter relay question
[Re: topside]
#2766678
04/21/20 12:09 PM
04/21/20 12:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,122 Auburn WA
Dave_J
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Auburn WA
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I know Matt's car a bit, he's had it for maybe 30 years. It was converted from AT to the Tremec several years back and has been driven a fair amount since. But IIRC it does sit for periods of time in his home garage. That tells me something has changed or deteriorated. I've had a starter relay with a loose terminal that would occasionally no-start; wiggle the connection, and it would work. Matt, look at the other end/connection of whatever grounded the relay before, including the wire itself.
Could even be a faulty replacement relay, ground shouldn't be carrying 12V, right ?
Dash lights: so the dimmer rheostat works the A/M gauge lighting OK, but not the cluster lamps ? I'd look at whatever the different routing for those two is, including the big connector at the back of the cluster circuit board. Any circuit that is looking for a ground that has an open, like you remove the ground source, will have line voltage potential. This is how 95% of things in a car/truck work. You open the car door and the switch at the A pillar goes to ground and the dome light goes on. But pull the grounding door switch out and measure the voltage at the Yellow wire and you will find 12+ Volts DC.
Retired, US ARMY 1973-1994 ASE mechanic, Electrical 1994-1997 Retired GTE/VERIZON/FRONTIER 1997-2015
Posting cheap tech help (CRAP) here since Nov 97, 1000's of posts, some may be good.
03 Suzuki Burgman 650(Burger King) Scooter 65 Formula S Cuda 78 Little Red Express Truck 98 Buick Regal (wifes car)
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Re: Starter relay question
[Re: topside]
#2766712
04/21/20 12:53 PM
04/21/20 12:53 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 733 Nampa, ID
MadMatt
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
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Nampa, ID
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I know Matt's car a bit, he's had it for maybe 30 years. It was converted from AT to the Tremec several years back and has been driven a fair amount since. But IIRC it does sit for periods of time in his home garage. That tells me something has changed or deteriorated. I've had a starter relay with a loose terminal that would occasionally no-start; wiggle the connection, and it would work. Matt, look at the other end/connection of whatever grounded the relay before, including the wire itself. Could even be a faulty replacement relay, ground shouldn't be carrying 12V, right ?
Dash lights: so the dimmer rheostat works the A/M gauge lighting OK, but not the cluster lamps ? I'd look at whatever the different routing for those two is, including the big connector at the back of the cluster circuit board. Actually, I've had it for 23 years, but otherwise your remember correctly. It was a column shift automatic and when I installed the Tremec I used a steering column out of a 71 or 72 floor shift Duster. I agree that I think something has deteriorated. I've never had an starting issues until after this winter's hibernation, and no dash light issues either. And just to be clear, the ground wire shows battery voltage whether it is connected to the relay or hanging loose. I guess it could be a coincidence that these 2 issues developed simultaneously, but it seems weird. I guess I need to start wiggling wires and checking grounds.
Some see the glass as half empty, some see the glass as half full. I just drink straight out of the bottle.
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Re: Starter relay question
[Re: MadMatt]
#2766825
04/21/20 05:38 PM
04/21/20 05:38 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,289 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,289
Fulton County, PA
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Look for rodent damage. A ground wire hanging loose from the relay should not have 12v on it.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Starter relay question
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2766951
04/21/20 10:46 PM
04/21/20 10:46 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
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Lincoln Nebraska
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^^^ agreed, the ground wire out from the G terminal should only be hot in ign2 "cranking" ign switch position
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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