Re: SB WINDAGE TRAYS
[Re: A/MP]
#2754031
03/21/20 02:28 AM
03/21/20 02:28 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,315 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,315
Bend,OR USA
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I use to race NHRA stock in Division 7, there was a lot of record holding SB Mopar racers racing back then, none of them ran a windage tray, stock or after market All of them had crank scrapers and added weld in baffles in the stock oil pans I use to help one of them, he ended setting the record in several different classes during his racing career with 340 motors, he did do a lot of testing both at the track and on a engine dyno He tested several different windage trays and didn't race with one ever that I know of Crankshaft scrapers with between .030 and .060 clearances are worth running
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 03/21/20 02:29 AM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: SB WINDAGE TRAYS
[Re: A/MP]
#2754040
03/21/20 06:23 AM
03/21/20 06:23 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,937 A shed in England
Tig
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,937
A shed in England
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Don't know if this is the same on a S/B but on my RB if we didn't run a windage tray we would lose some oil pressure (20 psi) in the shut down.
'74 Challenger..9.46 @ 145.9 1/4, 6.001 @ 118 1/8 so far. 4023lb !!! # N/A, Marsh performance 655ci, Indy Maxx, T/R, Indy 600-13 X's, Street legal, pump gas, full interior, Cal-Tracs, mufflers, 3:73's and real 10.5 radials. 9.51 @ 142.4 1/4, 6.003 @ 114 1/8 with our old mule KB, 572-13, 580 wedge. RHD '68 Barracuda Fastback 323ci street/strip. Best ET 13.88 @ 99.03
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Re: SB WINDAGE TRAYS
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2754106
03/21/20 10:28 AM
03/21/20 10:28 AM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,527 Tulsa, Oklahoma
340Cuda
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,527
Tulsa, Oklahoma
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I use to race NHRA stock in Division 7, there was a lot of record holding SB Mopar racers racing back then, none of them ran a windage tray, stock or after market All of them had crank scrapers and added weld in baffles in the stock oil pans How much oil did he run? My guess is a lot less than most folks here would be comfortable with. Thanks!
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Re: SB WINDAGE TRAYS
[Re: 340Cuda]
#2754113
03/21/20 10:45 AM
03/21/20 10:45 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,203 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,203
PA.
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I gave up using them years ago.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: SB WINDAGE TRAYS
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2754194
03/21/20 02:21 PM
03/21/20 02:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,122 Auburn WA
Dave_J
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,122
Auburn WA
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I have run windage trays on my small blocks and found no big differences. But for the low RPM cop cars the tests were positive. My LRT had one. On the 5.2L or 5.9L Dakota oil pans, 4 qt, there is no room as the pans are shallower, closer to the crank. I don't think you could, or should, run a stock Dak/Durango pan on a 4" or 4.125" stroker crank.
I bought the $110 Crank Scraper kit from Ishihara Johnson (crank-scrapers.com) for my 4 inch stroker 5.9 410. It is a bear to fit. You must fit it to the crank and block. The oil pan bolt holes are undersize. The stand offs for the main caps do not line up. The dip stick hole is way off. Then you must seal it to the block and pan as it is thick and will leave a gap at the front timing cover and rear main cap.
Last edited by Dave_J; 03/21/20 02:34 PM.
Retired, US ARMY 1973-1994 ASE mechanic, Electrical 1994-1997 Retired GTE/VERIZON/FRONTIER 1997-2015
Posting cheap tech help (CRAP) here since Nov 97, 1000's of posts, some may be good.
03 Suzuki Burgman 650(Burger King) Scooter 65 Formula S Cuda 78 Little Red Express Truck 98 Buick Regal (wifes car)
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Re: SB WINDAGE TRAYS
[Re: Dave_J]
#2754196
03/21/20 02:27 PM
03/21/20 02:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,122 Auburn WA
Dave_J
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master
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Posts: 3,122
Auburn WA
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The easiest scraper is one welded inside the pan. No extra gasket + RTV thickness needed.
Done as a downward angle on the cranks upward swing it will grab the loose mass of oil clinging to the crank. Here are two pictures of a Hamburger and Canton Chevy pans as an example.
You could do the 0.030' to 0.060' fitting to this side scraper too.
Retired, US ARMY 1973-1994 ASE mechanic, Electrical 1994-1997 Retired GTE/VERIZON/FRONTIER 1997-2015
Posting cheap tech help (CRAP) here since Nov 97, 1000's of posts, some may be good.
03 Suzuki Burgman 650(Burger King) Scooter 65 Formula S Cuda 78 Little Red Express Truck 98 Buick Regal (wifes car)
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Re: SB WINDAGE TRAYS
[Re: Dave_J]
#2754197
03/21/20 02:28 PM
03/21/20 02:28 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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I bought the IJ scraper but I bought the Teflon scraper. I didn't have near that much fitting on mine.
I also think that a running clearance of near zero is better than the .030-.060 you need with just a steel scraper.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: SB WINDAGE TRAYS
[Re: Dave_J]
#2754198
03/21/20 02:29 PM
03/21/20 02:29 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,739 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,739
Fulton County, PA
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I wouldn't spend money on a scraper.
I would make a pattern on an assembled engine and fab one up. With all the different parts combinations, how could they begin to make one and hope to have it be close.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: SB WINDAGE TRAYS
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2754210
03/21/20 03:02 PM
03/21/20 03:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,122 Auburn WA
Dave_J
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,122
Auburn WA
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I bought the IJ scraper but I bought the Teflon scraper. I didn't have near that much fitting on mine.
I also think that a running clearance of near zero is better than the .030-.060 you need with just a steel scraper. I wouldn't spend money on a scraper.
I would make a pattern on an assembled engine and fab one up. With all the different parts combinations, how could they begin to make one and hope to have it be close. This is kind of my point above. Lots of work making it right and even then it is still not right. I'd need to weld it up in places and add some steel to other places. I will put clay in the bottom of my Milodon truck rear sump pan and then carve out a side scraper that fits 0.030" - 0.060" to my 4" throws and weld it to the pans side. I will also be adding baffels to that pan. And I am running a 5/8" pipe direct pump pickup like below. That stock 5.2 3/8" pump pickup gets a 3/8 pipe plug in the oil pump hole.. I will run 6 quarts in that 8 qt pan but cut the dipstick tube to fit.
Retired, US ARMY 1973-1994 ASE mechanic, Electrical 1994-1997 Retired GTE/VERIZON/FRONTIER 1997-2015
Posting cheap tech help (CRAP) here since Nov 97, 1000's of posts, some may be good.
03 Suzuki Burgman 650(Burger King) Scooter 65 Formula S Cuda 78 Little Red Express Truck 98 Buick Regal (wifes car)
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Re: SB WINDAGE TRAYS
[Re: Dave_J]
#2754234
03/21/20 03:51 PM
03/21/20 03:51 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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I bought the IJ scraper but I bought the Teflon scraper. I didn't have near that much fitting on mine.
I also think that a running clearance of near zero is better than the .030-.060 you need with just a steel scraper. I wouldn't spend money on a scraper.
I would make a pattern on an assembled engine and fab one up. With all the different parts combinations, how could they begin to make one and hope to have it be close. This is kind of my point above. Lots of work making it right and even then it is still not right. I'd need to weld it up in places and add some steel to other places. I will put clay in the bottom of my Milodon truck rear sump pan and then carve out a side scraper that fits 0.030" - 0.060" to my 4" throws and weld it to the pans side. I will also be adding baffels to that pan. And I am running a 5/8" pipe direct pump pickup like below. That stock 5.2 3/8" pump pickup gets a 3/8 pipe plug in the oil pump hole.. I will run 6 quarts in that 8 qt pan but cut the dipstick tube to fit. Why are you running 2 pick up points
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Re: SB WINDAGE TRAYS
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#2754235
03/21/20 03:56 PM
03/21/20 03:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,122 Auburn WA
Dave_J
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,122
Auburn WA
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I bought the IJ scraper but I bought the Teflon scraper. I didn't have near that much fitting on mine.
I also think that a running clearance of near zero is better than the .030-.060 you need with just a steel scraper. I wouldn't spend money on a scraper.
I would make a pattern on an assembled engine and fab one up. With all the different parts combinations, how could they begin to make one and hope to have it be close. This is kind of my point above. Lots of work making it right and even then it is still not right. I'd need to weld it up in places and add some steel to other places.
I will put clay in the bottom of my Milodon truck rear sump pan and then carve out a side scraper that fits 0.030" - 0.060" to my 4" throws and weld it to the pans side. I will also be adding baffels to that pan.
And I am running a 5/8" pipe direct pump pickup like below. That stock 5.2 3/8" pump pickup gets a 3/8 pipe plug in the oil pump hole..
I will run 6 quarts in that 8 qt pan but cut the dipstick tube to fit. Why are you running 2 pick up points Just a side by side compare. The factory one will be removed and a pipe plug screwed in the pump. The new pump cover type pickup has a 0.625 inch ID tube.
Last edited by Dave_J; 03/21/20 07:08 PM.
Retired, US ARMY 1973-1994 ASE mechanic, Electrical 1994-1997 Retired GTE/VERIZON/FRONTIER 1997-2015
Posting cheap tech help (CRAP) here since Nov 97, 1000's of posts, some may be good.
03 Suzuki Burgman 650(Burger King) Scooter 65 Formula S Cuda 78 Little Red Express Truck 98 Buick Regal (wifes car)
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Re: SB WINDAGE TRAYS
[Re: Dave_J]
#2754241
03/21/20 04:09 PM
03/21/20 04:09 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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I run just a scraper now days.. use to run a windage tray but I had to open up all the slots so it would work.. now I just run a bigger pan with the scraper.. no problems at 8200+ rpm and keep the oil level lower
Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 03/21/20 04:11 PM.
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Re: SB WINDAGE TRAYS
[Re: A/MP]
#2754267
03/21/20 05:05 PM
03/21/20 05:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,122 Auburn WA
Dave_J
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,122
Auburn WA
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Haven't found any evidence other than commentary on the subject. Factory windage trays loose power? Aftermarket windage trays loose power(not including crank scraper)? Any hard evidence, something like a real design, where the tray does its job and makes power? No" dry sump" as the solutions please. So, to the OP, it seems that those that have been doing this for years do not think it has value. I too agree that in my low level bracket/grudge racing I have not seen any improvements just by adding a tray. Never did any Dyno testing on small blocks back in my racing/hot rod days. In the tests by the Mopar test group back in the days I seem to remember they were getting some HP gains but everyone was only reving their engines to 6,000 or so back then. E-58 small block cop car engine would only rev to 5,500 in most cases, first gear was locked out with a bracket. So, as posted above, a better course would be a deeper sump with the same amount of oil down lower in the sump, proper baffels and a scraper of some sort.
Retired, US ARMY 1973-1994 ASE mechanic, Electrical 1994-1997 Retired GTE/VERIZON/FRONTIER 1997-2015
Posting cheap tech help (CRAP) here since Nov 97, 1000's of posts, some may be good.
03 Suzuki Burgman 650(Burger King) Scooter 65 Formula S Cuda 78 Little Red Express Truck 98 Buick Regal (wifes car)
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Re: SB WINDAGE TRAYS
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#2754281
03/21/20 06:09 PM
03/21/20 06:09 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,739 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,739
Fulton County, PA
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Why are you running 2 pick up points Same reason for someone to run a dual line on a big block. I've fabed systems and ran them. Not hard to do. Worked well
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: SB WINDAGE TRAYS
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#2754295
03/21/20 07:10 PM
03/21/20 07:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,122 Auburn WA
Dave_J
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,122
Auburn WA
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Myself I wouldnt waste my time with dual inlets.. a 1/2" inlet is more than you need so why carry the extra weight and pluming.. just more possible leaks Edited my last post above. 1 single pickup, the bolt on pump cover one. Tests I read said that this pump "Cover Type" pickup with a standard volume pump will flow more oil than a stock pickup with a Melling high volume pump. The stock pickup is a huge bottle neck. I have seen some that are thick tube outside but small inside diameter. The biggest inside diameter ones I have seen are 1/2 inch inside until 1 inch from the pump and then necked down to that 3/8s pipe screw in.
Retired, US ARMY 1973-1994 ASE mechanic, Electrical 1994-1997 Retired GTE/VERIZON/FRONTIER 1997-2015
Posting cheap tech help (CRAP) here since Nov 97, 1000's of posts, some may be good.
03 Suzuki Burgman 650(Burger King) Scooter 65 Formula S Cuda 78 Little Red Express Truck 98 Buick Regal (wifes car)
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