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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: ECS]
#256800
03/19/09 11:07 PM
03/19/09 11:07 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 101
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AllTrim Plus
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Quote:
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also, the only pictures presented in this post that look even remotely close to being the same (dead on) are the ones Mike Volz of Rocket Resto posted and they are uncleaned dirty 30 year old parts, if they are the same so be it!
*....but they sure dont look anything like those posted of ross's bubble..
The picture posted by Mike Volz doesn’t even show a comparison between the grill and the shaker bubble paint. Are you now implying that the picture of Mike Ross' Cuda IS NOT an original factory example?* I thought Tony Dagostino posted the picture to simply substantiate that the grill and bubble were painted with the same paint formula! What about the 3 comparison photos posted by Terry McCann? Wasn’t that the original question/point of this entire thread?
Have we suddenly switched topics?
dave keep up, its confusing enough to try to convey this in written word jumpin back and forth form psot to post...
the original question by me was: can anyone post just one pic of a PRODUCTION LINE Installed shaker and grille that matched...
so one of the pics posted by Mike Volz is of a bezel (so what I can see that it the 'bezel" is the same as grill paint woudl be) and it is the first i ever seen where the two (shaker/grille beze whatever) that matched.
I am NOT implying That mikes car is not origianl (you need to stay with whats being said and quit trying to read between lines, and reread it if it doesnt make sense, I know i have since you started posting)...
only that the picture Ross posted a long time ago does not look like the picture tony posted and the differences in shade are night and day as pointed out by someone else in that other thread, and they appear night and day regardless of reflective quality, how you hold your head in the light to see it etc.
which is what this dead horse beating has become about for me, and people being able to tell the differences between the two colors...
I understand the original poster wanted to know if they were the same or not, it has been answered that yes they were and no they were not)
so regardless of what Mike R says and what Tony says, based on the picture Tony shows comparing the shaker to the grille vs the opriginal picture Mike ross showed in the other post, vs what mike volz has posted i am questioning the two colors on being the same on the blue car and using all my references to show the night and day diff btween the two pigments.
I am not being stubborn because of who it is i am dealing with, or anything else regarding them or you, its how i see the color, i am sorry I cant convey that any more clearly...
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: AllTrim Plus]
#256802
03/19/09 11:28 PM
03/19/09 11:28 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 101
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AllTrim Plus
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: AllTrim Plus]
#256803
03/19/09 11:32 PM
03/19/09 11:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 29,650
Hamtramck, PA
Alaskan_TA
Fluffy Balladeer
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Fluffy Balladeer
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 29,650
Hamtramck, PA
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i am sorry I cant convey that any more clearly...
Us too I think. This thread made my head hurt. 
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: hemicar1971]
#256804
03/19/09 11:33 PM
03/19/09 11:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,783
Ontario, Canada
mccannix
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,783
Ontario, Canada
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Can any of the posters tell me who painted the Bubbles for Chrysler? Was it Fram doing it in house? Was it Summerville Ind. that I believe made the bubbles? Did either of these two, Fram or Summerville mix the paint or did they have others mix small batches using a Chrysler Formula for their use on the bubbles.
Not Summerville Ind that made the scoops. The facility where they were manufactured in Toronto is long since closed, but scoops were shipped bare to Fram who initially for a short period of time mixed paint themselves as discussed in this and other earlier threads.
Fram called it Astrotone Silver, paint code AF4-DA1
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: AllTrim Plus]
#256805
03/19/09 11:35 PM
03/19/09 11:35 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 101
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AllTrim Plus
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tonys' pic of mikes car again closer to these above to make the reference easier
Last edited by AllTrim Plus; 03/19/09 11:38 PM.
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: AllTrim Plus]
#256807
03/20/09 03:08 AM
03/20/09 03:08 AM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
ECS
David Walden
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David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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the only pictures presented in this post that look even remotely close to being the same (dead on) are the ones Mike Volz of Rocket Resto posted ......but they sure dont look anything like those posted of ross's bubble..
Help me understand your point Mike. If you admit that Mike Volz's sample looks original and you state that Mike Ross' sample is original, what is it about MR's bubble that prompted you to post that it "don't look anything like those posted....? Original is Original!!!
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so regardless of what Mike R says and what Tony says, based on the picture Tony shows comparing the shaker to the grille vs the opriginal picture Mike ross showed in the other post, vs what mike volz has posted i am questioning the two colors on being the same on the blue car and using all my references to show the night and day diff btween the two pigments....the original question by me was: can anyone post just one pic of a PRODUCTION LINE Installed shaker and grille that matched...
Lets not forget the factual documented pictures that Terry McCann posted. That makes THREE different individuals with visual proof showing that the colors were NOT "day and night diff" but were very close to being the same. Why is this concept even being debated at this point? The best thing you could do is follow your own advice and post original "PRODUCTION LINE Installed shaker and grille" photos that support your contrasting views. With your 20 years experience, I would assume that you have at least ONE documented picture! With all due respect Mike, your conclusions have been supported by nothing more than your typed words, while requesting documented proof from everyone else!
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: ECS]
#256808
03/20/09 05:39 AM
03/20/09 05:39 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,923
Medina, Ohio
HEMICUDA
top fuel
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Posts: 1,923
Medina, Ohio
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To contribute to this conversation, here is a picture of the bubble and grille (no flash on the camera) on a 3,900 mile survivor that hasn’t seen the light of day until this week when all the cudas were pulled out to clean the shop. It's very obvious, like the pieces Terry has shown, the argent is the same and much easier to see that it is in person.
With all the good information posted here I think we can come to the conclusion that the factory intent was for the bubble and grille to match. Original bubbles will appear to be lighter depending on their exposure to the elements. The metals in the paint will oxidize at a much greater rate on a piece that is exposed like a bubble and make it appear much lighter. That will explain why the photo of the bubble on the black cuda Alltrim posted is much lighter. Based on the condition of the car that's obvious.
Another consideration is the fact that most of the bubbles were painted over a much more contrasting color in the red oxide primer. It takes more coats of argent to cover as apposed to the complementing color of a grey plastic grille. Our findings, painting more than 1,000 buckets and 500 grilles, is that every additional coat of argent lightens the shade of the appearance. Like I wrote earlier, we are very careful not to mix grilles and buckets even when they are sprayed the same day. We paint 10 grilles and buckets at the same time to insure a perfect match.
Whether a production line piece or NOS, the information so graciously supplied by fellow MOPAR people clearly shows that parts painted at different times with the same paint will change in shade. Based on all our experience here at B/E & A using argent paint, shades of the same paint changed considerably because of the inherent factors when spraying that type of material.
In closing, it is my presumption, that there isn’t one definitive shade of textured argent paint that is gospel as being correct, rather a shade anywhere in between.
After this exercise, it's easy to see why some people might preach that a lighter argent is gospel. Where some painted with a lighter argent? I don’t think so, more like the actual application of the paint that changed the shade.
Last edited by HEMICUDA; 03/20/09 07:37 AM.
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: HEMICUDA]
#256809
03/20/09 05:57 AM
03/20/09 05:57 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,107
Chicago Blackhawks
hemicar1971
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Chicago Blackhawks
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I agree with your last post HEMICUDA.One Chrysler Formula, but maybe mixed by different sources when applied to the Bubble or Grille,etc. so there would be a possibility of having a shade different on each. If all Mixing was done in one batch and shipped to all persons applying it then there would be little difference if any. If all followed the formula mix to the exact specs.then the color would be an exact match.But to get the formula mixed the same in August of 1969 as to July of 1970 it would have to mixed via the forumla to an exact specs. and be tested in a Lab. and tweaked to match the Chrysler Formula.
1971 HEMI E BODY REGISTRY
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: hemicar1971]
#256810
03/20/09 06:06 AM
03/20/09 06:06 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,923
Medina, Ohio
HEMICUDA
top fuel
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Medina, Ohio
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Quote:
I agree with your last post HEMICUDA.One Chrysler Formula, but maybe mixed by different sources when applied to the Bubble or Grille,etc. so there would be a possibility of having a shade different on each. If all Mixing was done in one batch and shipped to all persons applying it then there would be little difference if any. If all followed the formula mix to the exact specs.then the color would be an exact match.But to get the formula mixed the same in August of 1969 as to July of 1970 it would have to mixed via the forumla to an exact specs. and be tested in a Lab. and tweaked to match the Chrysler Formula.
I agree totally , and to say paint mixed by Mr. Joe counter guy at a paint store in 1989 as being absolute would be a foolish statement.
Don't forget, painting over contrasting colors with the same paint changes the shade also.
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: AllTrim Plus]
#256812
03/20/09 09:53 AM
03/20/09 09:53 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,160
DELAWARE
TONY_DAGOSTINO
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DELAWARE
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Quote:
so regardless of what Mike R says and what Tony says, based on the picture Tony shows comparing the shaker to the grille vs the opriginal picture Mike ross showed in the other post, vs what mike volz has posted i am questioning the two colors on being the same on the blue car and using all my references to show the night and day diff btween the two pigments.
mike
i hate to enter pi**ing matches here, but please be open minded enuff to admit that where the flash hit the shaker in the pic i took changed the appearance of the color. be smart enough to look past the flash + see where the flash doesnt hit the bubble or the grill that the colors are the same
i think we all know here how flash, lighting etc can change the appearance of the color.
also, i was there, + saw with my own eyes , the grill + shaker are the same color
i have no dog in this dispute but im just stating what i saw
i worked in a body shop for a few years when i was a kid, + i know that the same mix of paint sprayed with anyone of the following variances different days, different tempature, different humidity, different air pressure, different person usually will produce some kind of a difference in color
also do you feel that the 1989 batch of paint you have is an exact match to what was used in the 1970 model year????
im not saying it couldnt be, but it was mixed 20 years later than the original stuff
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: jerrya]
#256814
03/20/09 02:05 PM
03/20/09 02:05 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 101
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AllTrim Plus
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yah know what after thinking about this O/N and talking to people i respect about it... everyone is right i have no business or any experience to be talking about this at all, thank you for indulging me while i stirred the pot... its been fun? thank you to all who presentd pics and hypotheses. my input on this from here on out, dies here with me now, last time i ever talk about it, offer any thing or any insight... not because i am right or wrong, simply that it is a drain on my energy and focus, and i have spent way to much time on it as pointed out by some who feil i am not spending enough time working on their parts.. any and all info that i have or had, or come across, will now be up to the people who have bought/buy the formulas/formulations etc. from me or done their own research and documentation.. i am just going to sit back and watch from the sidelines and LMAO at misinformation and keep track of the good stuff for my personal use and knowledge to apply to my products. since there is a consensus that none of this stuff was the same and that none of it was different, it can no longer matter to me what is what. all the best! Mike
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: AllTrim Plus]
#256815
03/20/09 02:57 PM
03/20/09 02:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,596
Shopping @ HoBo Fright
340SIX
Doc Flappergas's Evil Twin
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Doc Flappergas's Evil Twin
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,596
Shopping @ HoBo Fright
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The real question asked by most is where and when can they buy some piant to shoot it them self.After all the fighting is over and everyone walks away thinking ther are right, Not one vender sells what they think is right! Point is if they realy think that what they have is right. They should have no problem selling it  not talking about the limited source of OEM stock still left. If there is a A,B,C option let the public make up their own minds. For years most of the guys were happy to get the ppg laqure organsol that was not right just to have something to use vs nothing. So I assume something very close would leave us tickled pink
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: 340SIX]
#256816
03/20/09 03:48 PM
03/20/09 03:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,923
Medina, Ohio
HEMICUDA
top fuel
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Medina, Ohio
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Quote:
The real question asked by most is where and when can they buy some piant to shoot it them self.
After all the fighting is over and everyone walks away thinking ther are right, Not one vender sells what they think is right!
Point is if they realy think that what they have is right. They should have no problem selling it not talking about the limited source of OEM stock still left.
If there is a A,B,C option let the public make up their own minds.
For years most of the guys were happy to get the ppg laqure organsol that was not right just to have something to use vs nothing.
So I assume something very close would leave us tickled pink
Kevin, good argent sprayed from a gun has been available through Frank Battleson. Not rehashing right from wrong, his paint is very good.
It's not that our company won't sell the paint, we aren't set up to do so and I really need it for the grilles we did. If you have a grille you would like painted, I would be more than happy to offer that service to you.
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: 340SIX]
#256817
03/20/09 05:48 PM
03/20/09 05:48 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 821
NW Ohio
6pkaar
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 821
NW Ohio
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Quote:
The real question asked by most is where and when can they buy some piant to shoot it them self.
After all the fighting is over and everyone walks away thinking ther are right, Not one vender sells what they think is right!
Point is if they realy think that what they have is right. They should have no problem selling it not talking about the limited source of OEM stock still left.
If there is a A,B,C option let the public make up their own minds.
For years most of the guys were happy to get the ppg laqure organsol that was not right just to have something to use vs nothing.
So I assume something very close would leave us tickled pink
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: AllTrim Plus]
#256818
03/21/09 01:58 AM
03/21/09 01:58 AM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
ECS
David Walden
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David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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i am just going to sit back and watch from the sidelines and LMAO at misinformation...
You are taking this way to personal Mike! It certainly does appear that this is a matter of being “right” and the heck with the truth! Look at your quote above. How is anyone reading this thread suppose to interpret that particular type of sentiment? You are a guy who has helped support this hobby. What “misinformation” are you referring to? The original comparison pictures posted thus far? The testimonials that were presented along with photographic proof? You shouldn’t make comments like that and just leave them hanging! Who are you accusing of promoting and/or offering “misinformation”?
As far as the “good stuff” Mike, ANYONE can mix the paint to match the original formula if they do their homework and take their time with the procedure.
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Arguing this for the 10000000000th time sure is funny though! 
