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header welding question #271187
03/29/09 11:18 PM
03/29/09 11:18 PM
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wine valley
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cudaben1968 Offline OP
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cudaben1968  Offline OP
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wine valley
so i have two sets of headers, a fenderwell set and a old set of cppas. I have a 68 b'cuda with a rb and victor heads have a motor plate manual steering and manual brakes and dual external oil line pickup. I dont want to hack the heck of of the car to loose truning radius with full on fendewell headers and the cppas dont fit for a darn, both are 2" primaries. is it possible to cut and weld and make my own set of semi fenderwell headers (ie proparts) with a 220v mig on flux wire? also where would i look for slip fit pipes or collectors?????


Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. -Alcoholics Anonymous, The Big Book
Re: header welding question [Re: cudaben1968] #271188
03/29/09 11:20 PM
03/29/09 11:20 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,207
Menomonee Falls
DemonDust Offline
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Menomonee Falls
You can weld headers with a 110v miller 135 with solid wire and C10(90/10)gas. It's probably the perfect welder to use beside a Tig welder for that light gauge tube

Last edited by R5P7Duster; 03/29/09 11:48 PM.

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Re: header welding question [Re: cudaben1968] #271189
03/29/09 11:36 PM
03/29/09 11:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Romeo MI
Quote:

so i have two sets of headers, a fenderwell set and a old set of cppas. I have a 68 b'cuda with a rb and victor heads have a motor plate manual steering and manual brakes and dual external oil line pickup. I dont want to hack the heck of of the car to loose truning radius with full on fendewell headers and the cppas dont fit for a darn, both are 2" primaries. is it possible to cut and weld and make my own set of semi fenderwell headers (ie proparts) with a 220v mig on flux wire? also where would i look for slip fit pipes or collectors?????




Many places have the tubing your looking for, try
Jegs or Summit or Google headers.... if your going
to make a set of headers DONT use that flux wire,
spend the money to get the 75/25 and a regulator,
it makes a MUCH nicer weld and looks much better in
the end... I tig all the headers I build but tack
tac them with the mig

Re: header welding question [Re: MR_P_BODY] #271190
03/30/09 01:03 PM
03/30/09 01:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,991
Anoka County, MN
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Leigh Offline
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Anoka County, MN
I'm not the greatest welder, but silicon bronze filler material works really good for headers. It flows at a low temp, and is tough.

Re: header welding question [Re: Leigh] #271191
03/30/09 01:15 PM
03/30/09 01:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing Offline
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Eighty Four, PA
Quote:

I'm not the greatest welder, but silicon bronze filler material works really good for headers. It flows at a low temp, and is tough.


Tig most all ours with Stainless filler.

Re: header welding question [Re: B G Racing] #271192
03/30/09 02:37 PM
03/30/09 02:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,991
Anoka County, MN
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Leigh Offline
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Leigh  Offline
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Anoka County, MN
My Syncrowave 180 doesn't like stainless. Or maybe it's me. How long did it take you take good at stainless on sheet metal and header tubes?

Re: header welding question [Re: Leigh] #271193
03/30/09 02:48 PM
03/30/09 02:48 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing Offline
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Quote:

My Syncrowave 180 doesn't like stainless. Or maybe it's me. How long did it take you take good at stainless on sheet metal and header tubes?


Lincoln squarewave 200 amp.Do header and cage work with ss filler.Liquid cooled torch.So easy a caveman can do it

Re: header welding question [Re: Leigh] #271194
03/30/09 04:48 PM
03/30/09 04:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Romeo MI
Quote:

I'm not the greatest welder, but silicon bronze filler material works really good for headers. It flows at a low temp, and is tough.




Yeah I've done a ton of silicon bronze, I had to
seal every muffler seam on all of the mufflers that
went into the exhaust certification for production
(ALOT of mufflers) just so we made sure we collected
all of the gases

Re: header welding question [Re: cudaben1968] #271195
03/30/09 05:21 PM
03/30/09 05:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 72
Belle River
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QUIKFISH1850 Offline
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Belle River
I did mine with a torch and coat hangers

Re: header welding question [Re: B G Racing] #271196
03/31/09 08:24 AM
03/31/09 08:24 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 82
Illinois
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hswhemi1 Offline
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Illinois
Lincoln squarewave 200 amp.Do header and cage work with ss filler.Liquid cooled torch.So easy a caveman can do it



Stainless is NOT the proper filler rod to use on a cage especially a moly cage or a mild steel one for that matter.Why would you use that? A caveman would even know that much!

Post deleted by Defbob [Re: hswhemi1] #271197
03/31/09 09:08 AM
03/31/09 09:08 AM

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Re: header welding question [Re: hswhemi1] #271198
03/31/09 09:23 AM
03/31/09 09:23 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing Offline
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Quote:

Lincoln squarewave 200 amp.Do header and cage work with ss filler.Liquid cooled torch.So easy a caveman can do it



Stainless is NOT the proper filler rod to use on a cage especially a moly cage or a mild steel one for that matter.Why would you use that? A caveman would even know that much!


You are absolutly correct SS filler exceeds the stength found in the CM and MS materials used and is not the recommended filler.With that been said,SS still can be used and is accepted since it makes for a stronger weld with more density.As long as your using a material that is compatiable and as strong as the material being welded or greater(SS)The only concern is it being done properly and the cost is higher.It's like saying CM must be welded with CM filler,if that be the case then every weld on a cage or chassis must be stress relieved.That you chose your knowledge and use your experience to dictate your methodology and application and I will not dispute your comments.I draw from my experience with techniques used in power plants,pressure vessels,heavy equipment repair,and structural building and bridge work.I also rely on advise from some of the best structural professional engineers.I will stand corrected by you but won't change my methods.

Re: header welding question [Re: hswhemi1] #271199
03/31/09 09:24 AM
03/31/09 09:24 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,207
Menomonee Falls
DemonDust Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Lincoln squarewave 200 amp.Do header and cage work with ss filler.Liquid cooled torch.So easy a caveman can do it



Stainless is NOT the proper filler rod to use on a cage especially a moly cage or a mild steel one for that matter.Why would you use that? A caveman would even know that much!




I use E70S for most tig welding I do on MS.


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Re: header welding question [Re: DemonDust] #271200
03/31/09 10:28 AM
03/31/09 10:28 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 778
Sherwood park, Alberta.
go green Offline
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go green  Offline
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Posts: 778
Sherwood park, Alberta.
ER 70S-2

I use steel tape on the elbows to hole the orientation or hold the two pieced and swipe it with a felt marker . Remove them from the car and Tig tack the pieces .( I never Mig tack because it leaves a blob of steel that you have grind off to weld over)
Build both sides and then Tig everything out.

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Re: header welding question [Re: DemonDust] #271201
03/31/09 10:36 AM
03/31/09 10:36 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing Offline
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We used 80SD2 on most all MS and CM in the past,with the tensile stength of aprox.80,000,we switched to 309 SS with the tensile strength of aprox 88,000.For header work which was the orginal question we like the SS since we the welds are more impervious to rust(if you notice exhaust generally rust at and around the welds quicker (caused by hydrocarbon contamination)but it has little effect on SS.For sheetz and giggles I call Glenn Smith PE at Gannett Fleming Inc,he's their senior bridge engineer and Rob Conner,a structural professor at Prudue University and I feel more confident(warm and fuzzy)about my statement.Not meaning to offend anyone,just didn't want to be passing on any bad advise.

Last edited by B G Racing; 03/31/09 01:52 PM.
Re: header welding question [Re: B G Racing] #271202
03/31/09 10:40 AM
03/31/09 10:40 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Romeo MI
Here ya go

Q. What filler material do I use?
A. Although there are several good filler materials, ER80S-D2, is one you should consider. This filler material is capable of producing welds that approximate the strength of 4130. ER-70S-2 is an acceptable alternative to ER80S-D2, as is ER70S-6, although the weld strength will be slightly lower.

Q. When I use ER70S-2 filler material, do I give up strength for elongation?
A. Yes. The filler material, when diluted with the parent material, will typically undermatch the 4130. However, with the proper joint design (such as cluster or gusset, for example), the cross-sectional area and linear inches of weld can compensate for the reduced weld deposit strength.

Q. Why is 4130 filler metal not recommended?
A. 4130 filler typically is used for applications where the weld will be heat treated. Due to its higher hardness and reduced elongation, it is not recommended for sporting applications such as experimental airplanes, race car frames, roll cages, etc.

Q. Can I weld 4130 using any other filler metals?
A. Some fabricators prefer to use austenitic stainless steel fillers to weld 4130 tubing. This is acceptable provided 310 or 312 stainless steel fillers are used. Other stainless steel fillers can cause cracking. Stainless filler material is typically more expensive.

This is from Lincoln welding


A high percentage of the welding I do is with 312ss
or ER70s-2

Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 03/31/09 10:49 AM.
Re: header welding question [Re: B G Racing] #271203
03/31/09 10:41 AM
03/31/09 10:41 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo Offline
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Lima, Peru
I TIG welded my Mild Steel Cage with SS filler rod.

Yes, it works, and yes, its safe. Got the tip off from a certified welder.

Re: header welding question [Re: domingo] #271204
03/31/09 11:17 AM
03/31/09 11:17 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing Offline
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B G Racing  Offline
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Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
Quote:

I TIG welded my Mild Steel Cage with SS filler rod.

Yes, it works, and yes, its safe. Got the tip off from a certified welder.


Yeah,just talked to our head welder at the construction co.He is also certified master welder in 5 states for structural and arial(crane booms an such)He says SS filler is acceptable and approved and recommends it for MS/CM and says 4130 CM with the high chrome content is similar in moleculer structure,density and strength.And that the only reasons not to use it would be it's not necessary and cost a little more.

Last edited by B G Racing; 03/31/09 05:09 PM.
Re: header welding question #271205
03/31/09 05:21 PM
03/31/09 05:21 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing Offline
master
B G Racing  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
Quote:

Quote:

Lincoln squarewave 200 amp.Do header and cage work with ss filler.Liquid cooled torch.So easy a caveman can do it



Stainless is NOT the proper filler rod to use on a cage especially a moly cage or a mild steel one for that matter.Why would you use that? A caveman would even know that much!







Well we idiots that use SS have defended our position,and are waiting to here the facts as to why we are wrong,and especially on CM/MS cages since I don't think it makes a rats butt difference on the headers.By the way we build a lot of SS tube headers.Things are awful quiet in the cave.We read the statement but don't see the back-up support.Cause some one says so,doesn't give me cause to change my mind. No matter what it beats the days when we welded dragster chassis with oxy/acetl and hanger wire.

Last edited by B G Racing; 03/31/09 05:39 PM.
Post deleted by Defbob [Re: B G Racing] #271206
03/31/09 06:53 PM
03/31/09 06:53 PM

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