Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
B block 499 buid #2699214
09/20/19 12:25 PM
09/20/19 12:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 69
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
M
MrMayhem Offline OP
member
MrMayhem  Offline OP
member
M

Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 69
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
So I have been saving my pennies to purchase the bottom end for the 400 based stroker and I have been looking real hard at the 440 Source 512 Kit. Just last night I was surfing the Summit Racing website and came across a 499 cu in package they put together that is supposed to produce 650-ish HP on pump gas and an ISKY .505 hydro cam. The kit seems pretty well complete and the article written on the build seems legit but I have a few questions that maybe someone can answer better than I...

First being, the 644HP seems generous given the cam used with untouched Eddy heads... Maybe I'm wrong but from other proven builds I have read about this seems to be more like a 575hp build... I have spoke with Hughes engines on cam choices in the past and the cam profiles we spoke about were a bit more aggressive than the Isky the kit comes with.

Second will be the debate over the rod length and compression height of the piston that requires a bridge for the oil rings. Is this areal concern for a street/strip car?

The parts chosen in the kit seem to be of good quality but I really dont know much about the SCAT crank and Rods vs the 440 Source thing. Are these the same parts sold by different vendors? Is the quality better from one vendor over the other?

Here are the links: https://www.onallcylinders.com/2015...ur-the-dyno-results-and-an-efi-surprise/

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-csummst49901

https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/street-hero-mopar-499-combos

Re: B block 499 buid [Re: MrMayhem] #2699217
09/20/19 12:45 PM
09/20/19 12:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,492
MN
J
JERICOGTX Offline
master
JERICOGTX  Offline
master
J

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,492
MN
Would be a decent kit if they sold it less dampner, and cam.


69 GTX 68 Road Runner
Re: B block 499 buid [Re: MrMayhem] #2699228
09/20/19 01:16 PM
09/20/19 01:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 33,419
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 33,419
Bend,OR USA
I've never seen a carb change drop torque and increase HP on a pump gas motor that had less than 10.5 to 1 compression confused
Much less going from a carb to a EFI throttle body, something doesn't make any since to me on that twocents
I've built and dyno tested a bunch of BB Mopars with stock stroke all the way up to 4.5 stroke with less than 10.5 to1 compression, all of them always made more torque that HP on pump gas work
My last pump gas 400 stroker motor with 10.29 to 1 compression, 4.375 X4.300 stroke made more torque (around 42 ft. Lbs) than HP until I switched heads and increase the comp.ratio to 10.78 to 1 which ended up making more HP than torque on a DTS engine dyno in Klamath falls OR at 4300 Ft actual altitude using 91 octane non ethanol Oregon pump swill. I switch carbs to run pump E75 and jetted that carb for max power and ended up dropping 11 HP and picked up 35 Ft. lbs. of torque shruggy confused
My message is you can make big power with the right heads and compression ratio on pump fuel up

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 09/20/19 01:18 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: B block 499 buid [Re: Cab_Burge] #2699394
09/20/19 10:33 PM
09/20/19 10:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,341
aotearoa
rebel Offline
master
rebel  Offline
master

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,341
aotearoa
i ran a 400/499 race engine a few years back, the pistons were real short & the 7000 rpm made the short piston skirts wear real fast. About 3 freshen ups & those pistons were trash. I have a 400/512 motor in my street/strip car, Molnar rods & Crank, (not a fan of the junk Source or Scat brands), the pistons are lasting much longer, longer skirts seem to be the trick. With Stage 6 MW heads & a 272@0.050 roller cam & a 850 carb with 10.5 cr, this made 645 RWHP on a mobile chassis dyno. gets my full factory optioned 71 cuda running 10.5@125mph. Is this the kind of performance you were looking for?

56837300_2191266097607741_922984713814016000_o.jpg
Re: B block 499 buid [Re: MrMayhem] #2699410
09/21/19 12:22 AM
09/21/19 12:22 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 26,122
Oregon
A
AndyF Online content
Too Many Posts
AndyF  Online Content
Too Many Posts
A

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 26,122
Oregon
I've never seen that kit before. I have no idea how they got more than 600 hp out of stock Edelbrock heads with that cam. I don't think that combo would be anywhere close to that power level.

Re: B block 499 buid [Re: AndyF] #2699424
09/21/19 01:21 AM
09/21/19 01:21 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,909
junction city oregon
V
viperblue72 Offline
top fuel
viperblue72  Offline
top fuel
V

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,909
junction city oregon
That combo would make more like 544hp. For my 512 I bought my own parts and went with a
4.25 stroke, longer 6.7 rod, and a 1.12ch piston. Which is a shelf piston for the 4.15 kits. Longer rod and lighter piston. I think the kits should come this way. Rather than the 4.25, 6.535, 1.32ch.
650hp with a similar combo will take a fully ported head and likely more camshaft in the real world

Re: B block 499 buid [Re: AndyF] #2699468
09/21/19 10:07 AM
09/21/19 10:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,264
So. Burlington, Vt.
F
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here
fast68plymouth  Offline
I Live Here
F

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,264
So. Burlington, Vt.
Originally Posted by AndyF
I've never seen that kit before. I have no idea how they got more than 600 hp out of stock Edelbrock heads with that cam. I don't think that combo would be anywhere close to that power level.


Here’s how I would say it........ if you built that exact combo, and brought it here to dyno........ and you were expecting anything even close to 644hp......... you would be very very disappointed with the numbers on the dyno sheet.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: B block 499 buid [Re: fast68plymouth] #2699512
09/21/19 12:25 PM
09/21/19 12:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 26,122
Oregon
A
AndyF Online content
Too Many Posts
AndyF  Online Content
Too Many Posts
A

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 26,122
Oregon
Yeah I don't know what went on with that dyno test but I can guarantee that out of the box Edelbrock heads will not make 600 hp with a dinky 505 cam. I'd think something in low to mid 500 range might be more likely.

A 500 inch short block with TF 240 heads can easily make 600 hp. I've made more than 700 hp with box stock TF 240 heads but that was with a fairly aggressive solid roller cam and a ported intake. I don't think the Edelbrock heads out of the box can be pushed anywhere close to that, they just don't flow that well.

I don't have any problem with the kit that Summit is selling, I just think their power claims are way off and I don't know why. That number is so high for those parts I would've thought someone would've stepped back and double checked what was going on. Perhaps the correction factor got entered into the computer wrong.

Re: B block 499 buid [Re: AndyF] #2699528
09/21/19 01:53 PM
09/21/19 01:53 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 416
Temperance, MI
6
68 HEMI GTS Offline
mopar
68 HEMI GTS  Offline
mopar
6

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 416
Temperance, MI
I’ve built both conbo’s, 499 and 511. I will say the 499 combo is now getting a 511 kit for the already mentioned reasons.


68 Dart GTS "HEMI" 10.30 @ 131 pump gas street car 3780#
69 Roadrunner 511 six pack 10.92 drive to track street car
Re: B block 499 buid [Re: Cab_Burge] #2699679
09/21/19 11:04 PM
09/21/19 11:04 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 33,419
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 33,419
Bend,OR USA
My first pump gas 400 stroker motor(4.250 stroke with 4.375 bore) had a true 9.25 to 1 compression ratio on all 8 cylinders, a set of mildy ported and polished 906 heads with 11/32 stem 2.14 intake and 1.81 ex. valves, a low deck Eddy 6 pack intake with stock type 440 vacuum six pack carbs and a Comp Cams solid roller that had 260 degrees @.050 on the intake lobes with .420 lift and 266@ .050 on the exhaust lobes ground on a 108 LSA and installed 1 degree advanced on the intake lobes. I ended up using a set of haralnad sharp 1.86 ratio rockers on the motor also up That motor made 612 HP at 5500 RPM and 644 Ft. Lbs. torque at 4500 RPM on the Carb shop dyno in Ontario, CA around 800 ft. altitude.
I put that motor in my old street Duster that weighed right at 3450 Lbs. wet with me in it and it ran 10.69 ET at 124.+ MPH corked up on Oregon 91 octane pump swill at Woodburn, OR in October of 2005 shruggy
it had a set of CAT BB Chevy type 6.800 long H beam rods with a custom set of Ross Pistons that had a 22.0 CC dish in them, nothing trick work
All BB Mopars need a lot of air and fuel to make good HP, concentrate on the heads camshaft, intake and carb size (850 CFM + twocents) up


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: B block 499 buid [Re: fast68plymouth] #2700045
09/23/19 08:48 AM
09/23/19 08:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,461
Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda Offline
I Live Here
Happy Birthday an8sec70cuda  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,461
Marion, South Carolina [><]
Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
Originally Posted by AndyF
I've never seen that kit before. I have no idea how they got more than 600 hp out of stock Edelbrock heads with that cam. I don't think that combo would be anywhere close to that power level.


Here’s how I would say it........ if you built that exact combo, and brought it here to dyno........ and you were expecting anything even close to 644hp......... you would be very very disappointed with the numbers on the dyno sheet.

iagree Everything I've seen on Koffel's dyno makes outrageous numbers. Nothing against Koffel's, but their dyno needs some calibrating.
I laughed out loud when I first read the article on that build.


CHIP
'70 hemicuda street car...8.91 at 150.5 mph w/ 4.10s, 8.97 at 152.5 mph w/ 3.54s so far
'69 road runner 440 w/ Indy SRs
'69 road runner 440-6, 4 speed...Dad's ride
'71 Demon 340 resto project
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax...toy hauler
'16 Grand Caravan SXT...baby hauler
Re: B block 499 buid [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2700056
09/23/19 09:22 AM
09/23/19 09:22 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 14,769
PA.
pittsburghracer Offline
"Little"John
pittsburghracer  Offline
"Little"John

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 14,769
PA.
Originally Posted by an8sec70cuda
Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
Originally Posted by AndyF
I've never seen that kit before. I have no idea how they got more than 600 hp out of stock Edelbrock heads with that cam. I don't think that combo would be anywhere close to that power level.


Here’s how I would say it........ if you built that exact combo, and brought it here to dyno........ and you were expecting anything even close to 644hp......... you would be very very disappointed with the numbers on the dyno sheet.

iagree Everything I've seen on Koffel's dyno makes outrageous numbers. Nothing against Koffel's, but their dyno needs some calibrating.
I laughed out loud when I first read the article on that build.





Lol. It doesn’t need calibrated. It’s reading EXACTLY where they want it to. Give me 3 minutes and my flowbench can make me look like the best head Porter in the world. Big numbers big sales.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
6.143@110.85 mph
9.73@135.05 mph shifting at 6700 RPM
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: B block 499 buid [Re: pittsburghracer] #2700058
09/23/19 09:23 AM
09/23/19 09:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,461
Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda Offline
I Live Here
Happy Birthday an8sec70cuda  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,461
Marion, South Carolina [><]
Originally Posted by pittsburghracer
Originally Posted by an8sec70cuda
Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
Originally Posted by AndyF
I've never seen that kit before. I have no idea how they got more than 600 hp out of stock Edelbrock heads with that cam. I don't think that combo would be anywhere close to that power level.


Here’s how I would say it........ if you built that exact combo, and brought it here to dyno........ and you were expecting anything even close to 644hp......... you would be very very disappointed with the numbers on the dyno sheet.

iagree Everything I've seen on Koffel's dyno makes outrageous numbers. Nothing against Koffel's, but their dyno needs some calibrating.
I laughed out loud when I first read the article on that build.





Lol. It doesn’t need calibrated. It’s reading EXACTLY where they want it to. Give me 3 minutes and my flowbench can make me look like the best head Porter in the world. Big numbers big sales.

OK, it needs to be CORRECTLY calibrated, lol.


CHIP
'70 hemicuda street car...8.91 at 150.5 mph w/ 4.10s, 8.97 at 152.5 mph w/ 3.54s so far
'69 road runner 440 w/ Indy SRs
'69 road runner 440-6, 4 speed...Dad's ride
'71 Demon 340 resto project
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax...toy hauler
'16 Grand Caravan SXT...baby hauler
Re: B block 499 buid [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2700087
09/23/19 10:59 AM
09/23/19 10:59 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 33,419
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 33,419
Bend,OR USA
I can testify about miscalibrated engine dyno giving bogus readings, down Been there done that puke whiney
I learned from that to look only at the differences between pulls for guidance, not use those numbers as the gospel tsk work
I now use the time slip and spark plug for at the track results up scope


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: B block 499 buid [Re: MrMayhem] #2700983
09/25/19 11:54 PM
09/25/19 11:54 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,194
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar Offline
master
451Mopar  Offline
master

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,194
Aurora, Colorado
Those numbers seem about 100 HP too high?

In most cases, you would be better off using the 512 cid stroker kit. The smaller rod journal size and rod bearings make the kit fit better than the Mopar sized rods.

On the 4.15 stroke / 499" kit, I have been running one for awhile and haven't noticed any issues, but It is coming out of the car this winter to be freshened so I will check for piston wear.
Not sure if your building for street / pump gas, or race / race gas?

The ring support on the 499" kit is nothing to worry about, except to check there are no burrs around where the pin was machined. I had that issue, the ring support was not sitting down flat, and the oil rings were too tight.
Easy fix to de-burr around the pin holes. That was the source kit with ICON pistons.
When I built my 499 with 440 source kit, only the pickup tube boss needed to be clearanced. Not sure if the different year block has anything to do about that. I used a '71 230 block (wasn't looking for that specifically, just happened to be what the guy had when I bought it?)

Re: B block 499 buid [Re: 451Mopar] #2700995
09/26/19 12:23 AM
09/26/19 12:23 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 33,419
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 33,419
Bend,OR USA
I've had to deal with the oil pick up issues on several builds when using the stock rod journal size (2.375) and rods with the 4.150 stroke cranks, not so on using the 4.25 stroke cranks using the smaller 2.200 BB Chevy rod journal sizes work(another gain is less reciprocating weight also) I do have to grind around .040 or so off the top of the oil pick up boss in the block but nothing on the pick up tubes work


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: B block 499 buid [Re: Cab_Burge] #2701291
09/27/19 12:16 AM
09/27/19 12:16 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,194
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar Offline
master
451Mopar  Offline
master

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,194
Aurora, Colorado
sorry, that is what I was trying to say, the boss of the block where the tube screws in,

In the other hand, the 440/505" stroker I just built, I did have to clearance the tube because it was one of those tubes with the adapter looking part on the end of the 1/2" tube


Advertisement
Sponsored Link
Moparts Newest Topics
Oil filter
by MikeyT. 10/17/19 01:03 AM
"Head rest" with low back buckets?
by GY3. 10/16/19 10:32 PM
adding 4 speed pedals
by moparpro. 10/16/19 09:47 PM
73 b body brakes/ suspension on 68
by modelmakerinc. 10/16/19 08:58 PM
Moparts Recent Posts
Oil filter
by MikeyT. 10/17/19 01:03 AM
"Head rest" with low back buckets?
by topside. 10/17/19 01:00 AM
NEW BEST Mopars at the valley Junkyard 360 magnum
by Cab_Burge. 10/17/19 12:43 AM
TF270 accessories
by Cab_Burge. 10/17/19 12:37 AM

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1