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Beehives with solid roller?
#268927
03/27/09 10:40 PM
03/27/09 10:40 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 383
Essex, Ont., Canada
Fishmarket
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 383
Essex, Ont., Canada
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Has anyone tried beehives with a solid roller? I'm going to be using a XR280R Comp on my 418 sb (242 248 dur. 570 576 lift). Comp recommends 914 Springs that are 165 @ 1.800 and 385 @ 1.200. I was thinking of trying the 26120 beehives that measure 155 @ 1.880 and 377 1.280. I realize that comp only recommends these springs for solid flat tappets and hydraulic rollers, but the cam isn't that aggressive, is it?
The car is 80% street.
Any thoughts?
1972 Plymouth Cuda 340 4 speed
1971 Plymouth Road Runner 383 Auto
1970 Plymouth Duster /6 Auto
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Re: Beehives with solid roller?
[Re: Fishmarket]
#268928
03/27/09 10:51 PM
03/27/09 10:51 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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On a solid roller those pressures sound WAY light that Comp told you... that sounds like flat tappet numbers 
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Re: Beehives with solid roller?
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#268929
03/27/09 10:59 PM
03/27/09 10:59 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 383
Essex, Ont., Canada
Fishmarket
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OP
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Posts: 383
Essex, Ont., Canada
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Its an extreme energy mechanical roller and 914s are the recommended springs. Its a street roller not race, thats why I'm thinking I could try the beehives.  Part # 914-16 O.D. of Outer Spring 1.489 I.D. of Outer Spring 1.105 I.D. of Inner Spring .819 Damper No Seat Load 165 @ 1.800 Open Load 385 @ 1.200 Coil Bind 1.110 Rate (Lbs./In.) 367
Last edited by Fishmarket; 03/27/09 11:03 PM.
1972 Plymouth Cuda 340 4 speed
1971 Plymouth Road Runner 383 Auto
1970 Plymouth Duster /6 Auto
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Re: Beehives with solid roller?
[Re: 1_WILD_RT]
#268931
03/27/09 11:22 PM
03/27/09 11:22 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 383
Essex, Ont., Canada
Fishmarket
OP
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OP
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Posts: 383
Essex, Ont., Canada
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Yes, exactly. That's why I'm asking if anyone has tried it, especially with a cam that isn't very aggressive like the xr280r.
1972 Plymouth Cuda 340 4 speed
1971 Plymouth Road Runner 383 Auto
1970 Plymouth Duster /6 Auto
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Re: Beehives with solid roller?
[Re: JohnRR]
#268933
03/28/09 10:04 AM
03/28/09 10:04 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8
Central Jersey
Mjollnir
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member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8
Central Jersey
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Quote:
the beehive has LOWER pressures than the Comp RECOMMENDED spring , is it REALLY a choice ???
Beehive springs are inherently more efficient than traditional parallel-wound springs. Their tapered design means that the spring uses less energy controlling its own mass, leaving more capacity available to control valve motion even if its published spring rates are slightly lower than the recommended traditional spring.
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Re: Beehives with solid roller?
[Re: Fishmarket]
#268935
03/28/09 11:28 AM
03/28/09 11:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,201
Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
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Posts: 31,201
Oregon
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Beehives can work for solid roller cams. Just have to select the correct beehive. The 26120 has 370 lbs/inch while the 26055 has 400 lbs/inch spring rate. Either of those should work okay with a mild street roller cam, especially if you're using a 1.50 rocker arm and aren't planning on twisting it very hard.
If you look closely at the spring specs you'll see that if you shim the 26120 springs about 0.050 they'll match the 914 specs almost exactly. Zero difference and therefore they should work fine. You just have to watch out for coil bind since you'll be really close. You'll have to be careful about the shim stack to get enough seat pressure but not run into coil bind.
Last edited by AndyF; 03/28/09 11:44 AM.
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Re: Beehives with solid roller?
[Re: Fishmarket]
#268937
03/28/09 11:59 AM
03/28/09 11:59 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 383
Essex, Ont., Canada
Fishmarket
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OP
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Posts: 383
Essex, Ont., Canada
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Here is the link to the Comp Cams web site for the cam card. http://compcams.com/Cam_Specs/CamDetails.aspx?csid=688&sb=0Now everyone can see that 914 is the recommended spring. The same spring is recommended in the Camquest software so I doubt it is a typo. Thank you Andy F...I assume that you have actually tried using the springs on a solid roller combo? If so, do you think they would have a shorter sreet life than using the recommended double spring? The car won't go over 6500rpm...
Last edited by Fishmarket; 03/28/09 12:04 PM.
1972 Plymouth Cuda 340 4 speed
1971 Plymouth Road Runner 383 Auto
1970 Plymouth Duster /6 Auto
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Re: Beehives with solid roller?
[Re: Fishmarket]
#268939
03/28/09 04:54 PM
03/28/09 04:54 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,093
Long Beach, CA
Mike Swann
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,093
Long Beach, CA
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Beehives are a gimmick, period.
They could have the best rate characteristics in the world, but because they have no damping, they resonate (surge). The higher the ramp rate of the cam, the more susceptible to surge/valve float they will be. A mechanical roller will cause this to happen at a lower rpm that a flat tappet would. A single or dual spring with a damper will attain a significantly higher RPM than a beehive would, rates being equal.
8.30's @3400 lbs
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Re: Beehives with solid roller?
[Re: Mike Swann]
#268940
03/28/09 10:13 PM
03/28/09 10:13 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 383
Essex, Ont., Canada
Fishmarket
OP
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OP
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Posts: 383
Essex, Ont., Canada
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Hi Mike thanks for your opinion, however I think you should read this article from David Vizard regarding the many attributes of beehives. I'm not sure what real world testing you have done on the subject, but I can respect your perspective. I really don't have an exceptional amount of personal experiences with them myself, but I haven't read anything bad about them yet, except for the increased price over conventional springs... including this article from such an accomplished engine builder. http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/eb50354.htmEx-aerospace engineer David Vizard, with over 3,500 published articles and 29 books (5 publisher’s best sellers) is one of the world’s most widely published automotive writers. He is also a university lecturer, holds numerous patents and is a winning engine/car builder. In his best year he amassed a combined 169 track records, first places and championship wins, from just 8 engines. Technology he has developed has been used on everything from F1 across the board to drag race and dirt cars. 
1972 Plymouth Cuda 340 4 speed
1971 Plymouth Road Runner 383 Auto
1970 Plymouth Duster /6 Auto
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Re: Beehives with solid roller?
[Re: Fishmarket]
#268942
03/28/09 10:39 PM
03/28/09 10:39 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,093
Long Beach, CA
Mike Swann
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,093
Long Beach, CA
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Quote:
Hi Mike thanks for your opinion, however I think you should read this article from David Vizard regarding the many attributes of beehives. I'm not sure what real world testing you have done on the subject, but I can respect your perspective. I really don't have an exceptional amount of personal experiences with them myself, but I haven't read anything bad about them yet, except for the increased price over conventional springs... including this article from such an accomplished engine builder.
http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/eb50354.htm
Ex-aerospace engineer David Vizard, with over 3,500 published articles and 29 books (5 publisher’s best sellers) is one of the world’s most widely published automotive writers.
He is also a university lecturer, holds numerous patents and is a winning engine/car builder. In his best year he amassed a combined 169 track records, first places and championship wins, from just 8 engines. Technology he has developed has been used on everything from F1 across the board to drag race and dirt cars.
Cool, and it seems he is a shill for Comp now.
Personal experience is I tried an identical looking spring that was manufactured by Isky with aluminum retainers in the 70's on a SBC. It floated at 5800 RPM. I replaced the springs with Chevy performance springs single and a damper and got 6500 rpm.
The weight analysis and the smoke about variable spring rate is alluring but doesn't change the fact that it is an undamped system.
Its seems you have made up your mind anyhow, so let me know how you make out.
And by the way, I have a BSME and own a service company that does vibration analysis on stationary gas turbines and wellhead gas compressors. I stand by my comments above.
Last edited by Mike Swann; 03/28/09 11:28 PM.
8.30's @3400 lbs
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Re: Beehives with solid roller?
[Re: Mike Swann]
#268944
03/29/09 11:20 AM
03/29/09 11:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,274
A gulag near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,274
A gulag near you.
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Quote:
Its seems you have made up your mind anyhow, so let me know how you make out.
I believe we have a WINNER ...
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Re: Beehives with solid roller?
[Re: Fishmarket]
#268946
03/29/09 02:19 PM
03/29/09 02:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,487
SoCal
Brian Hafliger
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,487
SoCal
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Mock up your valvetrain first, with checking springs. Set a dial indicator up on the intake and exhaust retainers and check your ACTUAL lift at the valve.
Now subtract your lash, and you have your ACTUAL lift at the valve (without deflection, but don't worry about it).
Now set those beehive springs up so that when installed, at max lift you'll be .070 from coil bind on each one.
Don't worry about the pressure at closed. Just set them so that at max lift you'll have .070 till coil bind.
And after all that....you'll gain nothing over a good 1.570 roller spring. And if that spring fatigues, your lifters will come apart!
And they will fatigue....
Brian
Brian Hafliger
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