Well, one could also say that thinner air at altitude thru the carb draws less fuel out the venturis. After all air thru the carb is the only thing that draws fuel into the engine.

Might be more crude than EFI but similar nonetheless.

You guys make it sound like cars couldn't run at elevation until EFI came along. And now you say that any change in the weather forces us to re-tune. Just a wee bit of exaggeration I believe. Besides, the need for altitude adjustment affects relatively few of us anyway. Again, not a real issue for the vast majority.

The OP posted his parts list. I am curious, how much is that gonna cost? And how much time will it legitimately take to install and tune it? I'm sure a perfect, no problems encountered scenario will be quoted.

Here is an honest question:

Dominic (ThumperDart) set up the Dominator on my Hemi. It starts with just a pump or two. Idles almost immediately and can be driven off within a minute. Cruises in the mid 14s and will run high 6s in the 1/8th. I have about $1,000 in it. I will never go to the mountains with it and haven't touched the carb in a couple of years. So how much time and money would it cost to replace my Dominator with EFI and how much overall improvement could I realistically expect? That is where the rubber meets the road for me.

Retrofit EFI is still in it's infancy and evolving daily as far as the average Joe is concerned. It has some real benefits but in an honest comparison against a truly well tuned carb, EFI fails the cost/benefit analysis for most of us. And on other sites, there are many disappointed EFI owners. More than a few gave up when they couldn't get the system to work satisfactorily.

Retrofit EFI may mature and be a viable choice for the majority of us. But today it is still hit and miss and it's promises are just not worth the time and money it typically takes to install and tune it. Unless maybe you drive above 8,000 feet regularly.

Hey fellas, I hear both sides. As for the carb, the Pro System carb on the UGLY STICK 528 Hemi ran flawless the whole race, high altitude and all. The Bluesmobile struggled on that same stretch of road. All of you make good points. Check out the couple on the bikes, "What the heck was that?"......Comey Car

That's not it at all.

Hard core carb guys fighting for that last little bit will mess with the tune trying to make it as good as possible for each round. It is necessary? No. Do guys do it to get better performance? Yes.

I've driven all over this country on a carb and know it can be done without opening the hood. I've also done it with EFI and I greatly prefer that route.


Retrofit EFI is not in it's infancy. It's well proven and will continue to grow as technology advances.

Yes, EFI is generally more expensive than a carb. However, you can get more consistent performance and road manners out of the EFI. Not only is there a good chance of better mpg in all operating environments you engine will last longer without washing fuel down the cylinders on cold starts and driving.

There are good reasons factory EFI engines seem to have less cylinder wear than carbed engines. Remember when engines were getting a bit long in the tooth at 75k and were thought of as worn out at 100,000 miles? Kinda funny how so many new engines still have awesome compression and leak down numbers despite showing 200,000 miles or more.

moly rings and better oil more than anything else contributes to longevity. Still running an 87 318 with well over 200k miles on it and visible crosshatch last time I had the heads off. Moly rings from the factory as well as a carb it's whole life.

Disassembled the Imperial 440, good thing. Middle cam bearing scratched (dirty assemble) and one rod bearing showing wear (more dirty assembly). Some "Sister Sludge" in pan and plugged pickup so it would not have lasted long as it sat for decades. BUT the good news is it is 30 overbore and cylinders crosshatched and true and the crank/rods are 10 under and look great. Someone had rebuilt it back in the day. We will check everything, line bore, resize, touch hone yata yata. Back to the thread.

The iron intake for a Holley bolt pattern is dual plane IE one side of motor runners are higher than other. Seems I read somewhere that is an EFI NO-NO. If so, do you have a part number for the correct EFI 440 intake. Thanks
USNATS travel in 19 days

Feets, you are fluent in EFI and for you, it is absolutely the right choice. But you really do stretch to justify it to the masses.

First you argue that retrofit EFI is not in it's infancy. Yet there are serious upgrades to the systems (or outright replacement) on a regular basis. Once it matures, that frequency and volume will not be a fact. If you don't like infancy, then how about immature? Maybe adolescent? Debate the terms if you want, but retrofit EFI certainly is not a mature technology.

And I am not even going to go into the 'well proven' part of your statement.

Next you say 'EFI is generally more expensive than a carb'. You downplay the reality. Which is that it is generally many times more expensive than the carb it replaces. Many times more expensive. 'Generally more expensive' is being disingenuous.

And for a finale, you compare retrofit throttle body injection to factory port injection. You know better! That is apples to oranges in anybody's book. There certainly is no comparison between carburation and modern factory EFI. Nobody wants to return to the 'good ol' days' of carburetors on our modern cars. Certainly not me. And there are many reasons that today's engines go so many more miles than their predecessors. Engine management systems being a big part of it, but is not all of it. Again, not a realistic comparison for a discussion of carb vs retrofit EFI. No more than the 'better fuel economy' argument stands the smell test. Even if there were a significant improvement in fuel economy (which is doubtful compared to a well tuned carb) it is meaningless given EFI's additional cost.

It is interesting that you do not go into the issues of a 'wet' intake which presents the same issues with the retrofit EFI as it does with a carb. Nor do you go into detail on what it takes to incorporate a timing map with these systems. Heck, you even blew past my question on how much it would cost and what exactly it would do for my application. Again, that is the bottom line. What does someone really get. And for how much time, money, and effort.

Or you could cost out the OP's shopping list and give us a realistic time estimate (even IF everything goes right). But you don't do that. You give broad generalizations, and apples to oranges comparisons.

Once again, the cost/benefit analysis is probably gonna swing in favor of these EFI systems eventually. And that is a good thing. But you can't show me that balance sheet today with any convincing data that favors it today, at least not for most of us. If you do have it, let's see it.

At what point is it no longer in infancy?

EFI retro fit kits have been around, what? almost 30 yrs?

I've never dabbled with them, just read articles on them in various magazines (ie: thing we read before internet).



(Spyphish aren't you glad you asked? )

A Holley Sniper will work just fine on a dual plane intake. If you have room for an open spacer it will work even better but if you don't have room you should still be fine. If you have room in the budget for a new intake then the Holley Dominator intake should work just fine. It is a low profile intake so it should fit under the hood. The Holley intake will also save you a bunch of weight off the nose of the car which always helps.

THANK YOU Car would look funny with a scoop. Jake

Yep, carbs are a constant compromise, even when tuned at their best [however long that lasts]. EFI will give you the best results right now, tomorrow, next year, hot, cold, whatever.

I'm glad the 440 looks like something you can use without too much hassle. If you can take good measurements and it looks acceptable there's no reason to throw cubic dollars into the machine work. Chances are the block is better than the build. Someone obviously did machine work to it and likely had the local garage slap it together (assuming they didn't do it themselves).


Dave, I didn't price out a system for him because I wasn't asked to and don't know what components he might already have or have access to. I feel confident it would come in under $2,000. Yes, more than a carb and tuning kit but that amount of money means different things to different people. What is painful to some is not a great concern to others. You determine your pain threshold.

Throttle body injection is a quick and easy way of getting into EFI and there's no doubting that it works. Yes, some people struggle with it but the same can be said for carbs. How many posts have there been on carb tuning and related concerns? As for the wet intake, isn't your intake wet now? Throttle body systems work with dual plane intakes. It's true that single plane intakes have a better track record but they aren't mandatory. There have been lots of intakes that don't perform well under certain carbs, too. Remember, it's a package and you've got to match components properly no matter what kind of build you're doing. I bet your Dominator doesn't like a stock 19173 cast iron intake.

As for the mature technology bit, that's like saying you're not a mature carb tuner because those things have been around well over 130 years and your experience is only a small portion of that time and in only a very small fraction of the applications.

Timing map! HA! Where did that come from? See that distributor poking out of the engine? USE IT. No problems there. Just the same old thing we've all done before. Yes, you can get systems that include ignition control but that's optional. In fact, you can add similar ignition control to a carbed engine. Try it. You might like it. The best ignition timing for nearly any situation and it's adjusted on the fly.

As for the difficulty of programming a non-self learning EFI system, if I can do it, your typical gearhead should have no problem at all. When I threw my EFI system at the hot rod I knew nothing about them. Sadly, I picked an old outdated system that had very little support and hardly anyone knew how to make it work. It was a $400 purchase off Ebay. I read the manual and figured it out. After looking at other systems I now know that it operated a bit backwards from most yet I was still able to get it running and reliable in a turbocharged application. You'll notice that I have not recommended the Electromotive TEC II to anyone.

Now, you're starting to sound like someone who's hero has been challenged or is afraid of technology. Perhaps I'm wrong. The big take away here is to know that there are multiple solutions to each situation.Some of those situations lend themselves towards a carb while others are better off with EFI. The decision is a personal one to be made by the person who owns the car. Some want carb. Others want EFI. Some enjoy popping the hood and tinkering with a carb. Others enjoy tapping a few keys while sitting in the car.

You may have noticed that I've posted something recently about carb selection. Yes, I'm leaning towards slapping a carb on the Imperial. Rest assured, it's a temporary solution. I want to get the car up and running on the cheap and would prefer to spend the money elsewhere at the moment. I'm following the "good enough" philosophy for now. EFI is planned for later but I want to get it up and running first.

You make your choice. Others can make theirs. What is good for one may not be the best for someone else.

I have to go to Reher Morrison to get my AH motor for Indy in the morning. I am bringing them the disassembled 440 stuff to hot tank and put cam bearings, resize rods etc etc. This project is a rounding error compared to what I am picking up. Top speed in the Great Race is 50 MPH but they put us on some serious inclines and altitudes. It didn't help we were bucking a 50 MPH headwind with a CLM air raid siren on the roof. No wonder the C body stock 400 would not go 50 uphill in the wind. I am going to ask David to spec a cam for lots of torque and quiz him on the EFI retro stuff. Ironically his first car was a 440 mopar so I think they will be fine with it. I will report his thoughts. Phish

Just for the record, I agree with some of what you said. Not all, but some.

You're right that everyone has to make their own decision. So it is important to have as much information as possible. That is what I hope this discussion was about.

I have a Fitech system with the FCC in my '79 Trans Am with an Olds 455. Mine has the timing control working with my MSD system. This was my first EFI system. Easy to install, start up and learn. No complaints form me - and performs great for street cruising. I will probably throw a system in my Dart next winter.

I was thinking that siren was going to have a wee bit of impact on the performance of the car. Pop that thing off the roof and I bet the car will feel rather lively in comparison.

FiTech support sucks. Don't bother. I asked what I would consider reasonable questions on the install and got ZERO help. I remember one of the questions was what kind of carb extension lever/stud to use on Mopar small block/727 with the particular setup I bought. I got answer "I'm not a Mopar guy I'm a GM guy......" and told me contact Holley.

Unfortunately I had the same experience, I’ve had my system running for 2 yrs and very pleased.
Would like to upgrade the firmware, but the tech support is pathetic.

Looks like we are going with Holley Sniper, ignition, distributor yata yata intake, the works. Get on it after Indy.

Sounds like a great way to go!

Let us know how it work out for you.