First EFI purchase

The Bluesmobile struggled at 8700' Crater Lake in this years Great Race. SO I have a nice 440 out of a 73 Imperial with the steel square bore intake. I want to build it to 69ish stock specs and run the new modern self learning EFI. I see some info on older threads but I would think these things get better every year. Not looking to scrimp $$$ so which is the best? We build engines and tune carbs so we should be able to handle install. As always, any advice appreciated. Stephen

I get not looking to cheap out, but you also need to know your plans in the future.

like some simple ones don't have spark control, some won't do mpfi, some won't handle turbo or super chargers etc..

so if all you are interested in is a stockish 440 being efi on a regular carb intake, that would be a different list than wanting to twin turbo it later.

If it was my car I'd go with a Holley Sniper kit and then add the Holley Hyperspark distributor so you'll have full control of the ignition timing. Best setup would include putting a high pressure fuel pump inside the gas tank but that does require some fab work since I doubt anyone makes a EFI ready tank for that car.

AndyF is correct, go with in tank pump. FiTech has a good system too, as long as you don't go with the FCC as they call it (Fuel Command Center) with the outside pump. Can be problematic. FiTech gets a thumps up as well otherwise and is self learning and price competitive.

GREAT pic btw!

STOCK with a mild cam. NO twin turbo, we have that on the roof. LOL Phish

I don't have any experience with the newer systems.
But I went to try and change a stock car over to efi, just to make it more reliable.
I have no intentions of hotrodding it, so I think we are in a similar boat.
I did go on the cheap, and overall still spent about the same amount as one of the kits out now.

Here are a few things I learned that might help you decide.

If you are not trying to get every single HP out of your build, spark control is a waste of time and money.
Just one extra thing to tinker with, that a regular vacuum advance distributor(still electronic) would do just fine.

A surge tank is another way to go instead of an efi gas tank, or having a custom tank built or cutting up your existing one.
However, it creates complexity. In my case, there is no mechanical carb pump to feed it, and it requires I have 2 electric pumps instead of just 1.
While there are other choices like the holley hydromat(which recommends replacment every 10 years,) the aeromotive efi pump kit with the foam, or having a sump or baffels welded into your existing tank, I think I would go for the custom tank built for efi instead.

There are several systems out there.
Each with its own unique set of issues. however for a straight stock application, I don't really think you can go wrong with any of them.
you really have to look at support for your decision.
How likely is that company going to be around in 10 years when some part fails.
I always assume the worst. So I look to see how common the replacable parts are going to be.
What o2 sensor do they need you to have. Is it proprietary, or is it a common off the shelf one.
what fuel pump is it?
did they do some odd connector or is it the standard for that part?
The only thing you have to worry about after that is the ecu.

Now if you read the board regularly, you will see people here are a bit fickle.
Each time a new efi product comes out, it is the best. Till it isn't.

Today it is holley, 6 months ago it was Fi tech. 6 months before that it was FAST Efi.

It kind of goes in cycles.
As more people use them, more problems come up.
But if you pay attention, it is for the people doing more than stock stuff generally, not just the plain swap from a carb.

I have seen the same for what I did. As you add more things the efi computer needs to do, it just adds complexity for more things to not work together, or fail.

My recommendation is to make it as simple as possible. Keep with 1 system of stuff, with good support in case you need it.
Sometimes simple means spending a bit to make it simple.
So you buy the efi tank or mod yours.
you get the returnless system if they make it. or create a short return run like corvettes do.

Good luck.

I like mega squirt products for custom port EFI stuff. But if I were to by one of the throttle body units it would be a Holley no doubt. Some friends of mine that have a local repair shop here in town have installed a few of the MSD throttle body units and were pleased with them. That was a few years ago though and you hear almost nothing of them now?

Whatever EFI system you buy today will be obsolete in a year (maybe less) and may not have service parts or tech advice available in a few years. And remember, these retrofit kits share the same intake problems as carbs and are about as antiquated as carbs.

In the end, a well-tuned carb would be much cheaper and perform just as well as any self tuning EFI out today and be serviceable long after the EFI is in the trash. About the only real advantage of a retrofit EFI system over a well tuned carb is maybe a little cold start convenience. Beyond that, a properly sized carb in a competent tuners hands will perform every bit as well as any self tuning throttle body EFI. But most guys buy a carb, slap it on out of the box, and then feel that they need to spend cubic bucks on an EFI system because the carbs doesn't perform well.

Now there are real advantages to multi port EFI with timing control. But that is unrealistic for most of us for a number of reasons. And then there is still the very real possibility of lack of service parts and tech advice in the foreseeable future.

Retrofit EFI systems may eventually come of age, overcome it's current shortcomings, and offer real advantages over carbs for the average guy. But that is not what we have today.

sorry, I have to disagree.
The OP specifically stated a problem that even a well tuned carb isn't going to overcome.
Large changes in Alt always caused problems and won't be fixed that way.

Beyond that, I think you are mistaken about being obsolete or not having parts.
I stated that case out very clearly in my post about being careful about that, but it isn't as big a deal as you make it out to be.
The only thing I changed out when I went to a different system was the ecu.
The stock 5.9 mag parts remained the same between the two. the o2 sensor stayed the same as well.
All of that is off the shelf from any parts store gear.

If they ecu craps out, it is a specialty part, however, finding another one to work with my existing gear isn't that hard and wasn't that hard 5 years ago, and it is even easier now.

I am a luddite in that I don't like new tech gear for the sake of tech gear, but hear, I find it is worth it if you can afford it.

The engine has a new MSD plug and play complete ignition system. Looking at videos, can I make distributor a lockout and use the adjustable rotor for the EFI? Or just get the Holley distributor. I can move the MSD system over to Lemon race car. Also, there is a small vent return line to tank from a canister on radiator support. I doubt it would be large enough for the return line some systems require. The MSD Atomic says it is single fuel line, any users of that system here. Thanks again

This years altitude change had a lot of us sea level guys working on carbs in the evening AFTER the 2 hour viewing for the crowds. Just looking for something to return our PBR time. LOL

PS Wrong thread but the Ugly Stick Hemi Coronet with the Pro System carb required nothing and ran perfect!!! For sale on Hemmings. Jake

Fair enough. Then there are 2 advantages to retrofit EFI; more convenient cold starting, and automatic altitude adjustment.

But I have to disagree that proper carb tuning can't overcome problems at altitude.

It wouldn't be that difficult to be prepared to make any carb adjustments necessary for altitude. Heck, my family took a trip through Colorado in 1969 with a slant 6 in an old Fury with no problems. And no adjustments. Carbs have been used successfully at altitude as long as there have been carbs. It's not like you have to have EFI to operate above sea level.

And if carb owners are not prepared to make altitude adjustments to a carb after carbs have been around for the better part of a century, how prepared would you think the average guy will be to piece together the parts necessary to keep their EFI system up as it becomes obsolete. And make no mistake about it, any system out today is destined to become obsolete, and all too soon.

Most muscle car guys with carbs do not have any real problems with cold starts or with operating at high altitudes. But ALL current retrofit EFI owners will likely deal with some sort of issue getting service, parts, or tech help at some point if they keep it long enough.

Just think, a few years from now and the owner with one of these systems (especially a system assembled with pieces from different manufacturers) has a problem. Who does he take it to? How many local shops would be prepared to deal with this? Even today, if an owner of one of these systems were to break down, how many places could he take it to be fixed? That will be a real issue for many guys.

I'll say again; retrofit EFI may well become a viable if not preferred method of fuel delivery for the average muscle car guy some day. But it is not there yet. Not for most of us, anyway.

My first foray into EFI was the old Holley Projection analog system.

Not too much support out there for that and Holley has been around "forever" and most of it was based on GM parts.

You can find OE replacement parts if you know what you are looking for but if you need anything proprietary for it you are SOL.

I'd recommend selling the MSD plug and play ignition system (or moving it to another car) and using the Hyperspark distributor with the Holley Sniper. The MSD distributor doesn't really play very well with the Sniper. There are a lot of advantages of having the ECU control the timing with a Sniper and the cost isn't very high for what you get. Once you have a Sniper on the car you'll wonder why you waited so long to do the conversion. If you go with the Super Sniper you can data log three pressure channels. The data logger can be used to solve a lot of issues that pop up on project cars. Transmission pressure, brake pressure, fuel pressure, oil pressure, crankcase pressure, coolant system pressure, etc. A lot of people who argue about carbs vs. EFI don't even think about the data logging potential.

Do the return fuel system.

Be sure to ask how the system you want corrects for barometric pressure changes(altitude). Some systems take a MAP sample when you turn the key on, so they may not correct as well as a system that has a separate barometric pressure sensor. I have no idea how these throttle body kits handle that, they should work toward the target Air fuel ratio regardless of altitude I guess.

Between the product reviews and comments here, we will try the Sniper setup with the correct distributor etc. Looks like a custom tank build with the intank pump and return line is the way to go. Seems the Atomic single line works in cool climates but not in South Louisiana heat from what I read, obviously not from experience. That may be a great system as well. Will get on it after USNATS with the hemi. Thanks for the input. Phish

PS Ignore the date on this photo, need to get my granddaughter to turn that off. I am camera illiterate.

I will wait until after Indy to order as a lot of engine builders will be there. Thanks

I'll disagree with you, too.

EFI will outperform the pro carb tuner.
It constantly tunes the system for atmospheric conditions. Cold start and altitude are just two parameters. When climbing to 8,000+ feet the EFI doesn't need to stop and pop the hood. Continue on to 11,000 feet and cruise into snow. The EFI makes changes for the altitude and temperature as you drive. Head down the other side of the mountain and the EFI retunes the car for lower altitude and higher temperatures.

Driving on a hot day and hit a cold front and a storm? No need to pop the hood. EFI compensates automatically.

The awesome pro carb tuners will diddle with the carb when clouds block the sun. The EFI guy is sitting back relaxing or working on something other than the tune.

Under WOT conditions the carb will run with (and sometimes squeak past) EFI. However, on the road the EFI will win every time.

As for parts availability, with a proper system the only part you need to worry about is the controller itself. Everything else will be off the shelf stuff. Chances are good those bits will be around for a long time due to production volume and interchangeability. Should the computer itself die you would need to replace it but in all but a few extreme cases everything outside the computer will be good.

I still have an old Electromotive TEC II system that works fine and it's been out of production nearly 20 years. If I want to upgrade I can pop a new computer on there and reprogram.

Some of the more basic, or older EFI systems do not tune for altitude on the fly. They sample the barometric pressure at startup only and that is it because they read it from the same map sensor it uses to determine engine load and the only time it sees atmospheric pressure is before the engine cranks.

They take the initial reading (like my TEC II does) then use the O2 sensor to correct the air/fuel ratio as you drive through altitude changes. That's more than sufficient in the vast majority of situations. After all, altitude means less oxygen. That shows up as a rich condition so the computer backs off the fuel as frequently as it samples.

It's pretty rare to find a carb tuner who can make several changes each second.

Well, one could also say that thinner air at altitude thru the carb draws less fuel out the venturis. After all air thru the carb is the only thing that draws fuel into the engine.

Might be more crude than EFI but similar nonetheless.

You guys make it sound like cars couldn't run at elevation until EFI came along. And now you say that any change in the weather forces us to re-tune. Just a wee bit of exaggeration I believe. Besides, the need for altitude adjustment affects relatively few of us anyway. Again, not a real issue for the vast majority.

The OP posted his parts list. I am curious, how much is that gonna cost? And how much time will it legitimately take to install and tune it? I'm sure a perfect, no problems encountered scenario will be quoted.

Here is an honest question:

Dominic (ThumperDart) set up the Dominator on my Hemi. It starts with just a pump or two. Idles almost immediately and can be driven off within a minute. Cruises in the mid 14s and will run high 6s in the 1/8th. I have about $1,000 in it. I will never go to the mountains with it and haven't touched the carb in a couple of years. So how much time and money would it cost to replace my Dominator with EFI and how much overall improvement could I realistically expect? That is where the rubber meets the road for me.

Retrofit EFI is still in it's infancy and evolving daily as far as the average Joe is concerned. It has some real benefits but in an honest comparison against a truly well tuned carb, EFI fails the cost/benefit analysis for most of us. And on other sites, there are many disappointed EFI owners. More than a few gave up when they couldn't get the system to work satisfactorily.

Retrofit EFI may mature and be a viable choice for the majority of us. But today it is still hit and miss and it's promises are just not worth the time and money it typically takes to install and tune it. Unless maybe you drive above 8,000 feet regularly.

Hey fellas, I hear both sides. As for the carb, the Pro System carb on the UGLY STICK 528 Hemi ran flawless the whole race, high altitude and all. The Bluesmobile struggled on that same stretch of road. All of you make good points. Check out the couple on the bikes, "What the heck was that?"......Comey Car

That's not it at all.

Hard core carb guys fighting for that last little bit will mess with the tune trying to make it as good as possible for each round. It is necessary? No. Do guys do it to get better performance? Yes.

I've driven all over this country on a carb and know it can be done without opening the hood. I've also done it with EFI and I greatly prefer that route.


Retrofit EFI is not in it's infancy. It's well proven and will continue to grow as technology advances.

Yes, EFI is generally more expensive than a carb. However, you can get more consistent performance and road manners out of the EFI. Not only is there a good chance of better mpg in all operating environments you engine will last longer without washing fuel down the cylinders on cold starts and driving.

There are good reasons factory EFI engines seem to have less cylinder wear than carbed engines. Remember when engines were getting a bit long in the tooth at 75k and were thought of as worn out at 100,000 miles? Kinda funny how so many new engines still have awesome compression and leak down numbers despite showing 200,000 miles or more.

moly rings and better oil more than anything else contributes to longevity. Still running an 87 318 with well over 200k miles on it and visible crosshatch last time I had the heads off. Moly rings from the factory as well as a carb it's whole life.

Disassembled the Imperial 440, good thing. Middle cam bearing scratched (dirty assemble) and one rod bearing showing wear (more dirty assembly). Some "Sister Sludge" in pan and plugged pickup so it would not have lasted long as it sat for decades. BUT the good news is it is 30 overbore and cylinders crosshatched and true and the crank/rods are 10 under and look great. Someone had rebuilt it back in the day. We will check everything, line bore, resize, touch hone yata yata. Back to the thread.

The iron intake for a Holley bolt pattern is dual plane IE one side of motor runners are higher than other. Seems I read somewhere that is an EFI NO-NO. If so, do you have a part number for the correct EFI 440 intake. Thanks
USNATS travel in 19 days

Feets, you are fluent in EFI and for you, it is absolutely the right choice. But you really do stretch to justify it to the masses.

First you argue that retrofit EFI is not in it's infancy. Yet there are serious upgrades to the systems (or outright replacement) on a regular basis. Once it matures, that frequency and volume will not be a fact. If you don't like infancy, then how about immature? Maybe adolescent? Debate the terms if you want, but retrofit EFI certainly is not a mature technology.

And I am not even going to go into the 'well proven' part of your statement.

Next you say 'EFI is generally more expensive than a carb'. You downplay the reality. Which is that it is generally many times more expensive than the carb it replaces. Many times more expensive. 'Generally more expensive' is being disingenuous.

And for a finale, you compare retrofit throttle body injection to factory port injection. You know better! That is apples to oranges in anybody's book. There certainly is no comparison between carburation and modern factory EFI. Nobody wants to return to the 'good ol' days' of carburetors on our modern cars. Certainly not me. And there are many reasons that today's engines go so many more miles than their predecessors. Engine management systems being a big part of it, but is not all of it. Again, not a realistic comparison for a discussion of carb vs retrofit EFI. No more than the 'better fuel economy' argument stands the smell test. Even if there were a significant improvement in fuel economy (which is doubtful compared to a well tuned carb) it is meaningless given EFI's additional cost.

It is interesting that you do not go into the issues of a 'wet' intake which presents the same issues with the retrofit EFI as it does with a carb. Nor do you go into detail on what it takes to incorporate a timing map with these systems. Heck, you even blew past my question on how much it would cost and what exactly it would do for my application. Again, that is the bottom line. What does someone really get. And for how much time, money, and effort.

Or you could cost out the OP's shopping list and give us a realistic time estimate (even IF everything goes right). But you don't do that. You give broad generalizations, and apples to oranges comparisons.

Once again, the cost/benefit analysis is probably gonna swing in favor of these EFI systems eventually. And that is a good thing. But you can't show me that balance sheet today with any convincing data that favors it today, at least not for most of us. If you do have it, let's see it.

At what point is it no longer in infancy?

EFI retro fit kits have been around, what? almost 30 yrs?

I've never dabbled with them, just read articles on them in various magazines (ie: thing we read before internet).



(Spyphish aren't you glad you asked? )

A Holley Sniper will work just fine on a dual plane intake. If you have room for an open spacer it will work even better but if you don't have room you should still be fine. If you have room in the budget for a new intake then the Holley Dominator intake should work just fine. It is a low profile intake so it should fit under the hood. The Holley intake will also save you a bunch of weight off the nose of the car which always helps.

THANK YOU Car would look funny with a scoop. Jake

Yep, carbs are a constant compromise, even when tuned at their best [however long that lasts]. EFI will give you the best results right now, tomorrow, next year, hot, cold, whatever.

I'm glad the 440 looks like something you can use without too much hassle. If you can take good measurements and it looks acceptable there's no reason to throw cubic dollars into the machine work. Chances are the block is better than the build. Someone obviously did machine work to it and likely had the local garage slap it together (assuming they didn't do it themselves).


Dave, I didn't price out a system for him because I wasn't asked to and don't know what components he might already have or have access to. I feel confident it would come in under $2,000. Yes, more than a carb and tuning kit but that amount of money means different things to different people. What is painful to some is not a great concern to others. You determine your pain threshold.

Throttle body injection is a quick and easy way of getting into EFI and there's no doubting that it works. Yes, some people struggle with it but the same can be said for carbs. How many posts have there been on carb tuning and related concerns? As for the wet intake, isn't your intake wet now? Throttle body systems work with dual plane intakes. It's true that single plane intakes have a better track record but they aren't mandatory. There have been lots of intakes that don't perform well under certain carbs, too. Remember, it's a package and you've got to match components properly no matter what kind of build you're doing. I bet your Dominator doesn't like a stock 19173 cast iron intake.

As for the mature technology bit, that's like saying you're not a mature carb tuner because those things have been around well over 130 years and your experience is only a small portion of that time and in only a very small fraction of the applications.

Timing map! HA! Where did that come from? See that distributor poking out of the engine? USE IT. No problems there. Just the same old thing we've all done before. Yes, you can get systems that include ignition control but that's optional. In fact, you can add similar ignition control to a carbed engine. Try it. You might like it. The best ignition timing for nearly any situation and it's adjusted on the fly.

As for the difficulty of programming a non-self learning EFI system, if I can do it, your typical gearhead should have no problem at all. When I threw my EFI system at the hot rod I knew nothing about them. Sadly, I picked an old outdated system that had very little support and hardly anyone knew how to make it work. It was a $400 purchase off Ebay. I read the manual and figured it out. After looking at other systems I now know that it operated a bit backwards from most yet I was still able to get it running and reliable in a turbocharged application. You'll notice that I have not recommended the Electromotive TEC II to anyone.

Now, you're starting to sound like someone who's hero has been challenged or is afraid of technology. Perhaps I'm wrong. The big take away here is to know that there are multiple solutions to each situation.Some of those situations lend themselves towards a carb while others are better off with EFI. The decision is a personal one to be made by the person who owns the car. Some want carb. Others want EFI. Some enjoy popping the hood and tinkering with a carb. Others enjoy tapping a few keys while sitting in the car.

You may have noticed that I've posted something recently about carb selection. Yes, I'm leaning towards slapping a carb on the Imperial. Rest assured, it's a temporary solution. I want to get the car up and running on the cheap and would prefer to spend the money elsewhere at the moment. I'm following the "good enough" philosophy for now. EFI is planned for later but I want to get it up and running first.

You make your choice. Others can make theirs. What is good for one may not be the best for someone else.

I have to go to Reher Morrison to get my AH motor for Indy in the morning. I am bringing them the disassembled 440 stuff to hot tank and put cam bearings, resize rods etc etc. This project is a rounding error compared to what I am picking up. Top speed in the Great Race is 50 MPH but they put us on some serious inclines and altitudes. It didn't help we were bucking a 50 MPH headwind with a CLM air raid siren on the roof. No wonder the C body stock 400 would not go 50 uphill in the wind. I am going to ask David to spec a cam for lots of torque and quiz him on the EFI retro stuff. Ironically his first car was a 440 mopar so I think they will be fine with it. I will report his thoughts. Phish

Just for the record, I agree with some of what you said. Not all, but some.

You're right that everyone has to make their own decision. So it is important to have as much information as possible. That is what I hope this discussion was about.

I have a Fitech system with the FCC in my '79 Trans Am with an Olds 455. Mine has the timing control working with my MSD system. This was my first EFI system. Easy to install, start up and learn. No complaints form me - and performs great for street cruising. I will probably throw a system in my Dart next winter.

I was thinking that siren was going to have a wee bit of impact on the performance of the car. Pop that thing off the roof and I bet the car will feel rather lively in comparison.

FiTech support sucks. Don't bother. I asked what I would consider reasonable questions on the install and got ZERO help. I remember one of the questions was what kind of carb extension lever/stud to use on Mopar small block/727 with the particular setup I bought. I got answer "I'm not a Mopar guy I'm a GM guy......" and told me contact Holley.

Unfortunately I had the same experience, I’ve had my system running for 2 yrs and very pleased.
Would like to upgrade the firmware, but the tech support is pathetic.

Looks like we are going with Holley Sniper, ignition, distributor yata yata intake, the works. Get on it after Indy.

Sounds like a great way to go!

Let us know how it work out for you.

Sounds like a good plan. If you have any questions just post them on here and I'll see if I can help.

STRIKE ONE HOLLEY!!!! Trying to get someone on the phone before I hit the checkout button. Ain't gonna' happen on a Monday morning. So may get help here. Anyone running the returnless Sniper system in a hot climate? Thanks

I'm a Holley Dealer. I can take care of you.

efiexpert.com
209-247-6497

Hope I can get in on this? What do you use for a tank, sending unit, etc for the sniper system. Thanks Mark

Reading Andy's posts about the Sniper for the last few years convinced me it was the way to go for a street machine. I literally just purchased a Holley Sniper system last night for my Coronet.

I got the whole works too - injection unit, new fuel tank with internal pump, distributor, ignition box and even the TFI coil they repackage.If it's all designed to work together, why make life hard and use other parts?

What was the cost on that, if you don't mind sharing?

From Summit;

SNE-19-139 FUEL TANK $569.95
SNE-550-516 SNIPER EFI KIT GOLD $999.95
SNE-556-151 IGNITION BOX $199.95
SNE-556-152 IGNITION COIL $37.95
SNE-565-305 DISTRIBUTOR $249.9

$2,057.75

I also got a roll of 3/8" tubing which was $19.I plan to use the existing mechanical pump line as the return. I'm sure there will be a bunch of fittings and clamps involved with the fuel lines which add up quick.

When I put the parts in my online cart a few months ago, the tank was listed for $593 but was happy to see it come back down to where it was originally at $569. Prices are essentially the same everywhere.

Great read, simple, just like me.

I have "0" problem with cold starts with my Edelbrock's. My issue is hot starts, after sitting for about 20 minutes.

PBR Yadaman.

That stuff is coming down in price quickly and having the fuel tank with the in-tank pump is a great addition that wasn't available that long ago. Eventually they may be get the features and price to a point that even us carb guys can't say no.

But that's not today.

EFI seems expensive if you buy it all at once and it is.

But, I bet that if I gathered up all the various carburetors and related parts I've acquired over the years, 2 grand wouldn't come close to covering what I paid out for it.

And thankfully I enjoy the tuning aspect of driving cars with carburetors because if not I'd be pretty upset about how much time I've spent bent over a fender adjusting stuff...

It just depends what you're trying to do. On a serious race car it is now cheaper to go EFI than a carb if a person is starting from scratch. For modest bracket car a simple carb and distributor can get the job done fairly cheaply. Personally I don't have a reason to run a carb on a street car anymore but I suppose everyone has to work thru that for themselves.

Andy, I sent you a pm