Hard starts. Is this my starter?
#2683249
07/31/19 09:43 PM
07/31/19 09:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,190 SW MO
closer9
OP
top fuel
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OP
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,190
SW MO
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On my 67 Belvedere I recently upgraded to DIY HEI. Prior to that I hadn't been driving her much. Been noticing hard starts and getting worse. Both cold and hot. I keep the negative cable off and battery on a tender. Finally realized when she did start it was as I was letting off the key. First thought was I messed up the ign start wiring, but checked it with a DVOM and even pulled and checked the ignition switch, and all was well. So, after fighting it for a while tonight I finally put the DVOM on the ign1/ign2 wire. I had 13v in run, but only 9v or 10v while cranking and it would usually catch just as I was letting off the key.
I don't have an amp meter other than the dash gauge and no clue how accurate it is or how many amps it's showing.
Is my starter pulling to much to get the ignition going too. It doesn't sound all the bad, but it does when it's hot and sits for just a little bit. Time for a Dodge truck "mini" starter?
Daily: '19 Frontier 4WD Belle: '67 Belvedere Convertible, 318/727 in Go ManGo! Other: '64 C10, 283/3 on the tree
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Re: Hard starts. Is this my starter?
[Re: closer9]
#2683257
07/31/19 10:06 PM
07/31/19 10:06 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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first borrow a known good fully charged battery & try it. Confirm the HEI/coil are both being fed in both crank & run key positions. clean all the cables including ground paths. EDIT I reread & is it cranking too slow or somewhat only wants to start when you let off the key (or both). 13V is adequate for the batt.
Last edited by RapidRobert; 07/31/19 10:11 PM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Hard starts. Is this my starter?
[Re: Sniper]
#2683271
07/31/19 10:44 PM
07/31/19 10:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,190 SW MO
closer9
OP
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OP
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I've been over the wiring. I'm fairly certain wiring is good. Bought all the wiring from Year One back in 06, and made a ground harness that runs back to the battery. Car spends most of it's time in a climate controlled garage.
I messed up my description a little there. Sorry. I've checked both ign1 (run) and ign2 (start) without cranking (starter relay trigger unplugged) and everything is normal. The last check I did, the 13v is run and the 9v is ign2/start while cranking. I also pulled the ignition switch and hooked it directly to the battery to check both circuits and no voltage drop.
Battery is almost new, spends most of it's time on a tender and had no trouble starting my 64 C10.
Last edited by closer9; 07/31/19 10:47 PM.
Daily: '19 Frontier 4WD Belle: '67 Belvedere Convertible, 318/727 in Go ManGo! Other: '64 C10, 283/3 on the tree
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Re: Hard starts. Is this my starter?
[Re: closer9]
#2683288
07/31/19 11:46 PM
07/31/19 11:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 553 DE
Ply72rr
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 553
DE
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HEI doesn't use a ballast resister so the coil should be getting battery voltage during crank and run but the voltage will be lower during cranking due to the amperage draw of the starter. Nine volts is a little low during cranking which could be caused by a weak battery or excessive starter draw. I would load test the battery and measure the starter draw. As Roberts said, make sure your battery connections are good and your cables are in good shape.
Last edited by Ply72rr; 07/31/19 11:50 PM.
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Re: Hard starts. Is this my starter?
[Re: Ply72rr]
#2683382
08/01/19 10:27 AM
08/01/19 10:27 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,190 SW MO
closer9
OP
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OP
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Alrighty. I'll probably pull the starter this weekend and take it to O'Reilly for test. It's a 12 year old Duralast. I just checked their site. They show the Magnum engine starter as new and this style as reman. I'm sure I went with a reman at that time and if they're anything like their steering boxes reman jobs, I was an idiot for buying it.
I'll also check out the cable to the starter a little better and replace if necessary.
I'll have the battery checked out, but again, it started my 64 C10 with HEI no problem.
Last edited by closer9; 08/01/19 10:28 AM.
Daily: '19 Frontier 4WD Belle: '67 Belvedere Convertible, 318/727 in Go ManGo! Other: '64 C10, 283/3 on the tree
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Re: Hard starts. Is this my starter?
[Re: closer9]
#2683398
08/01/19 10:54 AM
08/01/19 10:54 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,684 W. Kentucky
justinp61
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,684
W. Kentucky
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While your there have your battery load tested. I've been running a magnum starter from Advance on my Dart for close to 15 years. It spins my 434" small block with ease.
Last edited by justinp61; 08/01/19 10:56 AM.
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Re: Hard starts. Is this my starter?
[Re: closer9]
#2683507
08/01/19 07:34 PM
08/01/19 07:34 PM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,241 nowhere
Sniper
master
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master
Joined: May 2019
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I've been over the wiring. I'm fairly certain wiring is good. Bought all the wiring from Year One back in 06, and made a ground harness that runs back to the battery. Car spends most of it's time in a climate controlled garage.
I messed up my description a little there. Sorry. I've checked both ign1 (run) and ign2 (start) without cranking (starter relay trigger unplugged) and everything is normal. The last check I did, the 13v is run and the 9v is ign2/start while cranking. I also pulled the ignition switch and hooked it directly to the battery to check both circuits and no voltage drop.
Battery is almost new, spends most of it's time on a tender and had no trouble starting my 64 C10. So, if I read this correctly, you are showing 9V in "start" without the starter actually being used? That is your issue there. You did remove the original ballast resistor? No need for it in an HEI system. You should be showing battery voltage on both start and run with the starter relay kicking over the starter.
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Re: Hard starts. Is this my starter?
[Re: Sniper]
#2683555
08/01/19 10:54 PM
08/01/19 10:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,190 SW MO
closer9
OP
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OP
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Correct, no resistor, but also no, with the starter trigger wire unplugged from the starter relay, I have battery voltage (13v) under all conditions.
However, I only have 9v on the ign2/start wire while the starter is cranking. I have multiple ground wires. I have a specific ground harness to ground ignition components directly to the battery.
If it is the starter, I'll still go with a new Magnum starter, even if my reman is warranted.
Last edited by closer9; 08/01/19 10:57 PM.
Daily: '19 Frontier 4WD Belle: '67 Belvedere Convertible, 318/727 in Go ManGo! Other: '64 C10, 283/3 on the tree
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Re: Hard starts. Is this my starter?
[Re: A12]
#2683562
08/01/19 11:19 PM
08/01/19 11:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,190 SW MO
closer9
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
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SW MO
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No. Stock manifolds, but the down pipe is kinda close.
Daily: '19 Frontier 4WD Belle: '67 Belvedere Convertible, 318/727 in Go ManGo! Other: '64 C10, 283/3 on the tree
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Re: Hard starts. Is this my starter?
[Re: closer9]
#2683612
08/02/19 10:02 AM
08/02/19 10:02 AM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,241 nowhere
Sniper
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master
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,241
nowhere
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Ok, sounds like the starter might be drawing the system down. I'd pull all eight plugs and crank the motor to see if the 9v comes up or not. Also, really double check the battery cables, both ends and look real close at the terminal connections, do a voltage drop test on both as well.
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Re: Hard starts. Is this my starter?
[Re: Sniper]
#2683627
08/02/19 10:32 AM
08/02/19 10:32 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,396 north of coder
moparx
"Butt Crack Bob"
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"Butt Crack Bob"
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,396
north of coder
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since battery cables have been mentioned, if you have those "bolt on" replacement ends, replace those cables with new, quality battery cables of the proper gauge. those cheap replacement cable ends cause untold electrical gremlins you can't begin to imagine, and they have NO place in an automotive environment other than a TEMPORARY repair to get you home. one of my pet peeves when it comes to repairing electrical problems.
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Re: Hard starts. Is this my starter?
[Re: moparx]
#2683887
08/02/19 11:20 PM
08/02/19 11:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,190 SW MO
closer9
OP
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Well, yes I have one of those on the positive side, but it is temporary and I have checked voltage drop and it is not the problem.
However, I think I found the problem. Decided to try voltage drop testing the negative battery cable before pulling the starter. Not sure why I hadn't yet, but long story short it was the cable to block connection. It looked fine, but I clipped off a good chunk, shoved it under the bolt and wow. Big difference. Started and restarted 4 or 5 times without issue. I will be investing in some new cables asap, and verifying my start issues are gone. Feeling a little stupid for missing that earlier, but thanks for the help everyone.
And so, on that note, where's the best place to get battery cables these days?
Last edited by closer9; 08/02/19 11:23 PM.
Daily: '19 Frontier 4WD Belle: '67 Belvedere Convertible, 318/727 in Go ManGo! Other: '64 C10, 283/3 on the tree
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Re: Hard starts. Is this my starter?
[Re: earlymopar]
#2683950
08/03/19 08:30 AM
08/03/19 08:30 AM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,886 Lost and Spaced
bboogieart
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,886
Lost and Spaced
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Most local hardware and auto parts stores carry a good selection. You could have it in the car in the amount of time it takes you to look it up on line. Glad you found the trouble and it is something easy to remedy.
I have mechanical Aptitude. I can screw up anything.
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Re: Hard starts. Is this my starter?
[Re: bboogieart]
#2683966
08/03/19 09:49 AM
08/03/19 09:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,072 Niles , Ohio
therocks
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,072
Niles , Ohio
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I use 1 gauge cables on my 440.Bought the first ones at NAPA.Of course mine is not concourse correct because its a driver.The bigger the better.Rocky
Chrysler Firepower
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Re: Hard starts. Is this my starter?
[Re: therocks]
#2683993
08/03/19 10:54 AM
08/03/19 10:54 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,190 SW MO
closer9
OP
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OP
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,190
SW MO
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My car is far from original. I've even been chastised on here for the color... I thought I'd look around first and see if there was a nice option that had the solenoid and relay connections. Restoration versions are well over $100 and I'm not worried about looking correct. I found Real-Deal Steel part # RBT08-68C on Summit for around $35. It looks correct, but no info. I emailed them about it. If it doesn't turn out to be what I need I will probably build one using terminals designed for stereo installs. I just have a fairly stock 318, and will probably never go much much bigger in this convertible.
Daily: '19 Frontier 4WD Belle: '67 Belvedere Convertible, 318/727 in Go ManGo! Other: '64 C10, 283/3 on the tree
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