Starter relay replacement
#2682725
07/30/19 02:31 PM
07/30/19 02:31 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,467 Martinsville, IN
cdwmotorsports
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,467
Martinsville, IN
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Well I’m pretty sure the starter relay has finally died, I recall somewhere that we should replace them with a continuous duty solenoid or something. What I need is how to do it and parts needed to do it. My google foo either isn’t working or I’m looking for the wrong thing.
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Re: Starter relay replacement
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#2682749
07/30/19 04:15 PM
07/30/19 04:15 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,726 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,726
Fulton County, PA
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Intermittent for starter use.
Per a technical site...
"A starter solenoid like the kind you see mounted on the fender well, or starter motor housing of some vehicles is used to bring current to a starter motor when the key is in the start position. This type is designed to pass as much as 400 amps. The length of time this high current passes through a solenoid like this is limited. The limited time is the key to their usefulness. These solenoids use a coil with only 3 to 4 ohms of resistance. If this type solenoid was turned on and left on continuously, it would destroy itself from heat due to the amount of current passing through the coil winding. These solenoid windings pass close to 6 amps when operating.
Continuous duty solenoid windings will draw less than 1 amp when operating. These solenoids will have approximately 15‐30 ohms of resistance across the coil winding. This allows the coil to run much cooler allowing it to pass well over 100amps continuously without failure.
Never replace a continuous duty solenoid with a regular starter solenoid. The starter solenoid will burn out in a very short period of time if used for “continuous duty.”
Often, depending on the manufacturer, intermittent and continuous units look the same and it's not possible to tell visually which it is. The parts counter guy won't know either unless he looks at the manufactures technical information. Online sites (Waytek, Del City, etc.) will, or should, have that info in the description. Or the auto parts will be selling it as a "starter " solenoid.
Using a 4 stud solenoid, with a 4th stud to ground the winding (as opposed to being a 3 stud grounded through the case) gives you an easy way to use a neutral safety switch. Just ground the solenoid through the NS switch to ground.
Last edited by CMcAllister; 07/30/19 04:19 PM.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Starter relay replacement
[Re: topside]
#2682905
07/30/19 10:18 PM
07/30/19 10:18 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,911 Ontario, Canada
Stanton
Don't question me!
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Don't question me!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,911
Ontario, Canada
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The starter RELAY is the little box on the firewall of most Mopars. The starter SOLENOID is on the starter. That's a solenoid because it drives motion, in this case the starter pinion's injection into the flywheel's ring gear. The relay tells it to get to work. I was wondering when someone was going to clarify all that !! The relay uses low current to trigger it, protecting starter switch. That's the thin wire to the relay. When its triggered, the relay sends higher current to the solenoid. That's the two heavy wires on the relay - one from the battery and one to the solenoid. The current from the relay fires the solenoid which sends FULL battery current to the starter. That's the heavy wire from the battery direct to the starter.
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Re: Starter relay replacement
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2682959
07/31/19 04:24 AM
07/31/19 04:24 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI
TRENDZ
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master
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Milwaukee WI
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I think some confusion comes from the fact that many “race” starter wiring techniques are different from factory Chrysler wiring techniques. A lot of race cars use a Ford style starter solenoid, regardless of starter manufacturer. This allows a single, electrically “dead” heavy cable down to the starter. They do this for safety, and to minimize the required wiring to initiate the starter. To use this system, you simply make a small jumper wire that connects the large terminal on the starter to the small terminal on the starter. The large cable on the starter goes to the remote mounted solenoid into a place of your choosing.
"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
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Re: Starter relay replacement
[Re: TRENDZ]
#2683194
07/31/19 07:41 PM
07/31/19 07:41 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,726 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,726
Fulton County, PA
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I think some confusion comes from the fact that many “race” starter wiring techniques are different from factory Chrysler wiring techniques. A lot of race cars use a Ford style starter solenoid, regardless of starter manufacturer. This allows a single, electrically “dead” heavy cable down to the starter. They do this for safety, and to minimize the required wiring to initiate the starter. To use this system, you simply make a small jumper wire that connects the large terminal on the starter to the small terminal on the starter. The large cable on the starter goes to the remote mounted solenoid into a place of your choosing. Exactly. The Ford style unit used in a typical conversion is what I thought the OP was talking about and is what I was referring to. I thought that would have been obvious. I know the difference between a Mopar relay and a Ferd style solenoid that is used to eliminate it. And I've fixed quite a few balky old starters by whizzer wheeling the scabs and boogers off of the big copper disc or just flipping it around.
Last edited by CMcAllister; 07/31/19 07:43 PM.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Starter relay replacement
[Re: TRENDZ]
#2683287
07/31/19 11:25 PM
07/31/19 11:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md
383man
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
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I think some confusion comes from the fact that many “race” starter wiring techniques are different from factory Chrysler wiring techniques. A lot of race cars use a Ford style starter solenoid, regardless of starter manufacturer. This allows a single, electrically “dead” heavy cable down to the starter. They do this for safety, and to minimize the required wiring to initiate the starter. To use this system, you simply make a small jumper wire that connects the large terminal on the starter to the small terminal on the starter. The large cable on the starter goes to the remote mounted solenoid into a place of your choosing. That is dead on correct. I use a Ford type starter solenoid in my trunk since my battery is in my trunk. And I put a small jumper from the starter hot stud to the starter solenoid terminal. I did not want the large battery cable hot all the time and that why I mounted the Ford solenoid in my trunk so the large battery cable is only hot when cranking the eng. I then ran a smaller 8 gauge wire with a fuse link on it to the factory relay for power to the car and charging the battery from the alt. I guess we need to know is the original poster talking about the Mopar starter relay on the firewall or is he using and talking about a Ford style starter solenoid ? Ron
Last edited by 383man; 07/31/19 11:26 PM.
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Re: Starter relay replacement
[Re: Stanton]
#2683631
08/02/19 10:42 AM
08/02/19 10:42 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI
TRENDZ
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master
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Milwaukee WI
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I think you completely miss the point of doing that. The cable needs to be run to the front of the car in either wiring method. The benefit of having the starter relay closest to the battery is that in the event of a crash or fire, you no longer have a heavy gauge live wire to short to ground. Or the relay can be placed up front, and now there is no chance of shorting the start cable changing a trans, etc....
"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
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Re: Starter relay replacement
[Re: TRENDZ]
#2683738
08/02/19 03:27 PM
08/02/19 03:27 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,911 Ontario, Canada
Stanton
Don't question me!
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Don't question me!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,911
Ontario, Canada
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I think you completely miss the point of doing that. The cable needs to be run to the front of the car in either wiring method. The benefit of having the starter relay closest to the battery is that in the event of a crash or fire, you no longer have a heavy gauge live wire to short to ground. Or the relay can be placed up front, and now there is no chance of shorting the start cable changing a trans, etc.... Let me tell you from personal experience what happens ion the case of wires shorting to ground ... In the case of a heavy gauge wire like the battery positive, it will literally blow off at the weakest point - in my case that was at the negative frame mount. So other than that, no damage to the car. In the case of a thinner gauge wire, the wire will heat up and melt the insulation off its entire length and do the same with anything it comes in contact with. Anything flammable will catch fire and in the worst case, burn your car to the ground. Give me a heavy gauge short any day !!!
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Re: Starter relay replacement
[Re: Stanton]
#2683778
08/02/19 05:51 PM
08/02/19 05:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI
TRENDZ
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master
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Milwaukee WI
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Yes, a poor crimp will be a failure point. I wouldn’t recommend building in poor crimps though. In the case of a properly built cable, you will have an extremely dangerous situation on hand. Re read his explanation of a fuse link to power the rest of the car. You don’t have to like it, but there are reasons for changing from the status quo.
"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
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Re: Starter relay replacement
[Re: cdwmotorsports]
#2683838
08/02/19 09:13 PM
08/02/19 09:13 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,467 Martinsville, IN
cdwmotorsports
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,467
Martinsville, IN
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I have solved the problem I thought I was having and no longer am considering anything but the factory style starter relay. Thanks for all the input.
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Re: Starter relay replacement
[Re: cdwmotorsports]
#2683953
08/03/19 08:52 AM
08/03/19 08:52 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,911 Ontario, Canada
Stanton
Don't question me!
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Don't question me!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,911
Ontario, Canada
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I have solved the problem I thought I was having and no longer am considering anything but the factory style starter relay. Thanks for all the input. LOL !!!
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Re: Starter relay replacement
[Re: Stanton]
#2684065
08/03/19 02:28 PM
08/03/19 02:28 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,726 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,726
Fulton County, PA
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One wonders, what was the original issue? And how was it corrected?
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Starter relay replacement
[Re: Stanton]
#2684813
08/05/19 10:25 PM
08/05/19 10:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md
383man
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
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Things are so much simpler when you leave the starter under the hood. The point of trunk mounting is to move the weight but that small amount is insignificant on street cars. And the added weight of that heavy copper cable !!! Reduce the front end weight with aluminum engine components but leave the battery in its stock location. If you really want to add weight to the rear, build a weight box and put it in the right place. Myself I love having my battery in the trunk in my street car. I did it because I like the extra room under my hood without the battery there and many Max Wedge cars had the battery in the trunk. And I am not worried at all about the little bit of weight from the longer cable. I did not do it for the extra weight in my trunk as my car hooked fine when it was under the hood. I just like the added room under the hood. Ron
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