VALVE SPRING COIL BIND QUESTION
#2659670
05/27/19 02:19 PM
05/27/19 02:19 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 370 Queensland Australia
moparmacka
OP
enthusiast
|
OP
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 370
Queensland Australia
|
I understand the theory behind setting up valve springs close to coil bind eg 0.050-0.060. However, is it that critical in a street strip engine that isn’t seeing constant high RPM. I have found a float issue in my new bullet at approximately 7000rpm. Problem is, I only have 0.640 lift (nett with deflection measured at the retainer), and any solid roller spring worth their salt sets up anywhere from 0.160 to 0.200 from coil bind. And no I can’t shim my current springs any more. It isn’t a pressure issue, more like a frequency problem. Some say don’t worry and others say it’s super critical. Thoughts please? Thanks in advance.....
Last edited by moparmacka; 05/27/19 03:55 PM.
|
|
|
Re: VALVE SPRING COIL BIND QUESTION
[Re: moparmacka]
#2659685
05/27/19 04:02 PM
05/27/19 04:02 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,906 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,906
Bend,OR USA
|
Valve float causes all kinds of havoc in the valve train, it ain't a ship, don't float them As far as distance to coil bind that is done, to my understanding from several different cam techs, is to prevent harmonics from the coils in the springs at the upper RPM. On your deal, problem, you didn't say if it is a flat tappet or roller cam and or what seat and open pressures your dealing with so if it is floating them at 6400 not do to hydraulic lifters pumping up the you have two choices, change the springs to another type and or shift it before 6200 RPM BTW I set all my motors up with more seat pressures than most cam company recommend and shoot for within 10 lbs. at the open height to start with based on lower seat pressures allow the lifters to float at max lift more than when you have more seat pressures on flat tappet type lifters, solid or hydraulics 140 to 175 on the seats and up to 375 lbs. at max lift and try to get from .050 to .100 from coil bind. Which is not always do able with the valve springs available today. I'm bless to have a large supply of new and old valve springs, a very good valve spring tester and a lot of valve spring shims to shoot for perfect on all 16 springs Please let us know what you do and the results That will help others on here as well
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
|
|
|
Re: VALVE SPRING COIL BIND QUESTION
[Re: moparmacka]
#2659713
05/27/19 05:47 PM
05/27/19 05:47 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,206 Michigan
A727Tflite
master
|
master
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,206
Michigan
|
I understand the theory behind setting up valve springs close to coil bind eg 0.050-0.060. However, is it that critical in a street strip engine that isn’t seeing constant high RPM. I have found a float issue in my new bullet at approximately 7000rpm. Problem is, I only have 0.640 lift (nett with deflection measured at the retainer), and any solid roller spring worth their salt sets up anywhere from 0.160 to 0.200 from coil bind. And no I can’t shim my current springs any more. It isn’t a pressure issue, more like a frequency problem. Some say don’t worry and others say it’s super critical. Thoughts please? Thanks in advance..... How do you know it’s a float issue ? What are the symptoms?
|
|
|
Re: VALVE SPRING COIL BIND QUESTION
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2659730
05/27/19 06:34 PM
05/27/19 06:34 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,187 Melbourne , Australia
LA360
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,187
Melbourne , Australia
|
It could be as simple as a similar spring with a different spring rate is needed. As you mentioned, the spring you're using is hitting a frequency that is causing it to go in to surge, it's likely a similar spring of a different rate won't do this.
Tom Vigue has done some testing on his spintron where he mentioned running the spring around 0.200" from bind without any issues.
Alan Jones
|
|
|
Re: VALVE SPRING COIL BIND QUESTION
[Re: Locomotion]
#2659846
05/28/19 06:24 AM
05/28/19 06:24 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,103 Tulsa OK
Bad340fish
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,103
Tulsa OK
|
What is stopping you from adding more shim? I recently shimmed mine to .050-.060 and had to add a good amount of shims, but comp said as long as I could get the valve seal on not to worry about the shim stack. I haven't run it yet to see if there is a performance difference, i wasn't having a problem before but did this off of comps recommendation.
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
|
|
|
Re: VALVE SPRING COIL BIND QUESTION
[Re: B1MAXX]
#2660007
05/28/19 12:17 PM
05/28/19 12:17 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
|
Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
|
What spring? what installed height? Closed & open pressures w/ current spring? How close to coil bind w/ current installed height? What type (diameter & wall thickness) & length are the pushrods? How much deflection between measuring lift w/ soft spring and measuring with actual spring? What type of rocker arms & what ratio? What type of cam lobe ("Drag", "Endurance", ?)? What's the hot lash setting? Also, what could you "hear" on the dyno? And what did the dyno data indicate (e.g., valvetrain "crash", or no incremental gains or even losses of measured air flow at RPM intervals, or screwy AFR readings, or...)?
Last edited by BradH; 05/28/19 05:04 PM.
|
|
|
Re: VALVE SPRING COIL BIND QUESTION
[Re: moparmacka]
#2660065
05/28/19 02:58 PM
05/28/19 02:58 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,219 New York
polyspheric
master
|
master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,219
New York
|
Spintron has rudely schooled me on coil bind. Back in the day, everyone assumed that (with symmetrical springs) each coil will collapse separately and simultaneously, and the inter-coil distance will shrink but remain equal to full lift. This never happens. The top coils smack each other long before full lift, and this collision is added & subtracted to the position and stored energy of every coil. A spring at full chat looks like a slinky.
Boffin Emeritus
|
|
|
Re: VALVE SPRING COIL BIND QUESTION
[Re: polyspheric]
#2660100
05/28/19 05:00 PM
05/28/19 05:00 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
|
Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
|
Spintron has rudely schooled me on coil bind. Back in the day, everyone assumed that (with symmetrical springs) each coil will collapse separately and simultaneously, and the inter-coil distance will shrink but remain equal to full lift. This never happens. The top coils smack each other long before full lift, and this collision is added & subtracted to the position and stored energy of every coil. A spring at full chat looks like a slinky. But did you see anything that shows the benefit of setting up the spring to lift closer to coil bind to help reduce the harmonics or spring surge? Or is it a tradeoff where it can help tame the surge, but at the price of weakening the spring prematurely? "Full chat" - You're originally from the UK, right? Never heard that expression used elsewhere...
|
|
|
Re: VALVE SPRING COIL BIND QUESTION
[Re: BradH]
#2660124
05/28/19 06:51 PM
05/28/19 06:51 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,219 New York
polyspheric
master
|
master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,219
New York
|
All of the reccos I've seen are just trying to avoid coil bind while using the shortest spring. Other benefits? IDK.
Boffin Emeritus
|
|
|
|
|