With or without EGR?
#2581995
11/23/18 05:28 PM
11/23/18 05:28 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 401 Western Colorado
340Scamp
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
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Posts: 401
Western Colorado
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My '94 Ram is getting another motor installed (5.9) due to A/F in oil and out of tailpipe. The motor I'm putting in it has no place for an EGR valve like the one I'm taking out. Can I install the newer motor ('01) without the EGR set up or do I have to change the intake and right side exhaust manifold for the EGR? Will the computer not let the motor run if the EGR is not hooked up is what I'm trying to find out.
Last edited by 340Scamp; 11/23/18 05:29 PM.
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Re: With or without EGR?
[Re: 340Scamp]
#2582023
11/23/18 06:06 PM
11/23/18 06:06 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
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One also wonders what other parts may be different and not compatible with the computer's expectations.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: With or without EGR?
[Re: 340Scamp]
#2582031
11/23/18 06:19 PM
11/23/18 06:19 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 960 Chicago
PurpleBeeper
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super stock
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Chicago
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Assuming your pulling out a '94 5.9 (or 318 cid), my gut instinct is to use the intake & exhaust manifold from the '94 & possibly some other of the '94 bolt on parts.
fyi- on my '96 "brand-X" car, I installed a '04 motor, but used all the '96 bolt on parts. It just made installation soooo much easier.
70 Roadrunner convt. street car
440+6, NOS, 4-spd, SS springs
'96 Mustang GT convt. street car
'04 4.6 SOHC, NOS, auto, lowered
"Officer, that button is for short on-ramps"
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Re: With or without EGR?
[Re: 340Scamp]
#2582250
11/24/18 03:42 AM
11/24/18 03:42 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md
383man
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On a 94 truck it should still be OBD1 which means the PCM wont check the EGR system. After 1996 with OBD2 the PCM will turn on the EGR and test it by looking at the short term addaptive memory and 02 sensor to check if the EGR is working and will eventually set a code for the EGR if its not working. But your 94 PCM wont do that so you should be fine. If the eng going is was made with no EGR then it should run ok and not have any ping with the right fuel. If someone fooled with the eng going in and it had EGR at one time then I would use the intake and EGR from the old eng. Good luck , Ron
Last edited by 383man; 11/24/18 03:42 AM.
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Re: With or without EGR?
[Re: PurpleBeeper]
#2582570
11/24/18 08:52 PM
11/24/18 08:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,153 Canada -- Posts: 4034 -Registe...
5thAve
Doesn't care what this says anyway
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Doesn't care what this says anyway
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Posts: 4,153
Canada -- Posts: 4034 -Registe...
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Assuming your pulling out a '94 5.9 (or 318 cid), my gut instinct is to use the intake & exhaust manifold from the '94 & possibly some other of the '94 bolt on parts.
fyi- on my '96 "brand-X" car, I installed a '04 motor, but used all the '96 bolt on parts. It just made installation soooo much easier. Thats what I would do. Mismatching parts is asking for problems. Use the different engine but all the manifolds and sensors that were on the original engine.
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Re: With or without EGR?
[Re: 360view]
#2582713
11/25/18 05:26 AM
11/25/18 05:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md
383man
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On my 1995 at highway cruise in the 1600 to 1800 rpm range with a manifold vacum of 11 to 8 inches Hg my Actron OBD-I Scantool shows the spark advance is quite high: 42 to 48 degrees BTDC. I think this is because EGR slows combustion speed and requires more advance. I have even seen as high as 52 degrees.
I do not know if the OBD-I pcm is “smart enough” to not dial in this much advance if the EGR is not functioning.
Chrysler did away with EGR in 1996 when more efficient 3-Way Catalytic converters became available. Non-CA EPA Tier 1 regs for the period 1992 -2003 can be met without EGR if the guts of the CAT are efficient enough. Light duty gasoline trucks over 3750 lbs to 5750 GVW only had to meet 0.7 grams/ mile, versus the passenger car limit of 0.4 NOx grams/mile in that period.
Chryslers 1995 CATs were pretty fragile. There was a recall. My original factory CAT began rattling around 50,000 miles.
The 2nd dealer installed CAT suddenly failed around 110,000 miles and nearly plugged the exhaust. The extra backpressure blew out the internal bellows of the “EGR Modulating Valve” and I did not discover this until the first long trip on the aftermarket 3rd CAT. This is when my CEL light came on and I read the Ram FSM sections about how to troubleshoot and fix the EGR system. Now that you say that I do believe I remember a 94 Intrepid that did test the EGR even though it was not OBDII yet which I believe was standard by 1996 on Mopars and some 95 Neons had OBDII. I remember this 94 Intrepid set a code for EGR failure. I also remember Mopar dropping the EGR on the 3.3 for a few years and then we were getting 3.3 engines failing the NOX emission test. Mopar was telling us to replace the CATs on the cars that failed and we found nothing wrong. But a few years later they went back to EGR on the 3.3 eng and then we had no failures. I don't remember what year it was when they dropped the EGR on the 3.3 and I don't remember on their other engines without looking it up. I just remember some other engines that also dropped the EGR. I also saw many of the vacuum transducers melt the hose under it that brings the exh pressure to it and many vacuum transducers melt from clogged CATs and exh. I saw a lot of the Mopar engines showing a lot of timing that the PCM gave it at different times. And I was surprised to see so much sometimes as it was more then I was thinking I would see at times. The PCM will turn the EGR off when it meets the test parameters to test it as it looks for the 02 to go lean and the short term adaptive to go rich to see if it is working. I believe "360view" is correct as I had forgot that some cars did monitor the EGR before OBDII. But if the eng was built without EGR it may be ok but if the eng in the car had EGR the PCM may be one that monitors the EGR and may set a code with no EGR working. Ron
Last edited by 383man; 11/25/18 05:31 AM.
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Re: With or without EGR?
[Re: 340Scamp]
#2583128
11/26/18 04:58 AM
11/26/18 04:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md
383man
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Balt. Md
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If he leaves the EGR off and the PCM looks for it then it should set a code after a few trip failures and turn on the CEL lite. In Md where I live the 95 and older cars I believe still get the tailpipe sniffer as 96 and up they just scan the vehicle. But even if it gets tailpipe tested if they see the CEL on they will fail it. I believe in Md where I live that year will get tested on the rollers and get a drive test. Some older years I think still get just the idle test but I have been out of it (retired) since 2011 and I don't remember what years get only an idle test.
Its funny "360view" that you mention it can turn the erg on by grounding the EGR solenoid as I forgot about that it can do that if it keeps failing.
I had a Caravan around a 1996 with a trans problem and I remember when I brought it in the shop that it ran bad and had no power. I knew the trans had to come out so I figured I will fix that first and then check the running problem. But after I went through the trans I pulled it out to drive it as it was now running ok in my bay. And the Caravan ran perfect now that I had cleared the codes and set Quicklearn and repaired the trans so it was not in limp-in mode. It seems Mopar programmed the PCM to limited the rpm to about 3000 when the trans was in limp-in I guess so you wont hurt the trans. That was the first one I had ever worked on that did that and when I got others like that I knew what was going on. Funny as I noticed how every year they could make the PCM's smarter and I always tried to find out all I could in training about any new tricks the PCM could do. Info like that I usually could never find in any books. Ron
Last edited by 383man; 11/26/18 05:01 AM.
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Re: With or without EGR?
[Re: 360view]
#2583224
11/26/18 02:58 PM
11/26/18 02:58 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
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I do not know if the OBD-I pcm is “smart enough” to not dial in this much advance if the EGR is not functioning.
That would be an interesting test with an OBD1 reader!
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Re: With or without EGR?
[Re: 360view]
#2583515
11/27/18 01:25 AM
11/27/18 01:25 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
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It was a kinda interesting “test” to see that I got about 2 MPG less on the trip I made when the EGR was not flowing because the EGR bellows was blown out. I had made this same trip dozens of times before.
EGR was not invented to reduce NOX.
EGR was invented in the 1920s to extend the range of gasoline engined aircraft. The extra inert gas in the intake manifold raises manifold pressure when at less than full throttle power, like when a Bomber is at high altitude cruise using less than full horsepower needed at takeoff with a full load of bombs. The higher manifold pressure “helps” push the pistons down on the intake stroke. The lower peak combustion temperature also lets less heat leak away through the cylinder walls and cylinder head. For awhile EGR was a “secret military technology.”
It was only later in the early 1970s that engineers seeking new pollution reducing techniques realized that the lower peak combustion temperatures led to less chemical NOx creation.
Not sure where you found that (polished turd) gem, but no, not even close. EGR does not raise manifold pressure. EGR does not help push the piston down. EGR does not let "less heat leak away through the cylinder walls and cylinder head". It does lower peak combustion temps which helps prevent knock and Nox formation.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: With or without EGR?
[Re: Supercuda]
#2583580
11/27/18 07:02 AM
11/27/18 07:02 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md
383man
Too Many Posts
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Balt. Md
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It was a kinda interesting “test” to see that I got about 2 MPG less on the trip I made when the EGR was not flowing because the EGR bellows was blown out. I had made this same trip dozens of times before.
EGR was not invented to reduce NOX.
EGR was invented in the 1920s to extend the range of gasoline engined aircraft. The extra inert gas in the intake manifold raises manifold pressure when at less than full throttle power, like when a Bomber is at high altitude cruise using less than full horsepower needed at takeoff with a full load of bombs. The higher manifold pressure “helps” push the pistons down on the intake stroke. The lower peak combustion temperature also lets less heat leak away through the cylinder walls and cylinder head. For awhile EGR was a “secret military technology.”
It was only later in the early 1970s that engineers seeking new pollution reducing techniques realized that the lower peak combustion temperatures led to less chemical NOx creation.
Not sure where you found that (polished turd) gem, but no, not even close. EGR does not raise manifold pressure. EGR does not help push the piston down. EGR does not let "less heat leak away through the cylinder walls and cylinder head". It does lower peak combustion temps which helps prevent knock and Nox formation. That's just what I was taught in auto shop class and other training classes through my years. I have no idea who or when EGR was first used I just know car manufactors use it to help control NOX emissions. And that's because NOX is created when combustion temps get to high. The EGR inert gas wont burn so it helps lower combustion temps to keep NOX down. I have also heard some call EGR "The cheap mans octane booster" since it helps keep combustion temps down and helps stop any other flame fronts from starting so it helps to fight detonation. I don't know when it was first used and dont care I just know car manufactors used it to help in emission control. Ron
Last edited by 383man; 11/27/18 07:03 AM.
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