Keith Black, Inc. - New HEMI and WEDGE engine blocks
#2569619
10/26/18 01:55 AM
10/26/18 01:55 AM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,212 QLD Australia
Keith Black®
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,212
QLD Australia
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Here is the long-awaited news.
We are manufacturing engine blocks now.
I have just had three weeks in the US and Canada working alongside our key manufacturing partners to ensure we have a continuous, permanent, ongoing supply of engine blocks to the market.
We are manufacturing across 4 locations to guarantee quality, redundancy, scalability and certainty in engine block supply – from all our manufacturing partners and suppliers. This is a long post, but should provide a detailed overview of the lineup.
Our new HEMI and WEDGE engine blocks, now have these features:
• High grade A356 T-6 Heat Treated Aluminum, made with all new tooling. Our blocks are cast using state of the art low-pressure casting technology to increase densification in key structural areas of the engine block (previously all blocks were gravity cast).
• Revised water jackets – through modern approaches to design we have eliminated risks around internal core shift of water jackets. All our castings will hold core tolerances to 1 mm radially. All internal wall sections have been increased to >= 0.300 in.
• We have added a small china wall to very front of the foremost lifter bosses. This helps pool oil around the lifters for cylinders 1 and 2, previously an area that allowed oil to quickly drain away and not receive the full lubrication benefit the other lifter pairs had.
• We have added +0.25 in radial material to the block where the cam journals are machined. Our block will support cam journal diameters of 65mm (babbit) and 60mm (roller) the largest in the market.
• All main stud and head stud internal threads are now machined as rolled threads. In addition to the already stronger fastener specifications of our blocks (which I am happy to outline if anyone is interested). Rolled threads are significantly stronger and resistant to thread pulling (which is commonplace with our competitors’ aluminium blocks).
• Re-engineered and vastly improved internal oiling – our engine blocks now provide full-time oil to the lifters direct from the main oil galley.
• Cylinder heads still get oil through the deck, but it is now restricted (as it is now receiving full-time pressure). We have now also included provisions for separate rock-gear-oil-feed-lines that tap directly into the lifter oil galley bosses.
• Provision for Dry-Sump – our block provides a cast & machined-in provision for direct-oil-feed into the main galley (such as in a dry-sump or accumulator-based system). This provision at the rear of the LH bank on top of the bellhousing face (see attached image).
• EPCO OEM spec Zero-Leak-Gold engine-sealing plugs (core plugs and galley plugs). These plugs have a superior design for dual sealing both by way of both taper & machine fit and neoprene- seal. They are widely used by OEM’s. The added benefit is that these are shelf items and available direct from the manufacturer, not requiring expensive one-off plugs if customers want replacements.
• We use a proprietary Darton Sleeve with extremely-high nodular density and material strength. Our blocks are machined with a specific surface finish and interference to work with these sleeves for maximum thermal transfer and stability.
• All our blocks use 4340 billet main bearing caps machined to very close tolerances, dual-registering both on the proprietary main cap stud as well as in the block itself. We use ARP 5/8-9/16 stepped primary fasteners and double-1/2 in.-cross bolts on main caps 2, 3, & 4 (the load bearing main caps).
• Close Tolerance Machining –our engine blocks are machined to extremely tight tolerances. This means that minimal if any finish machining is required, which is more often the case with other engine blocks (cylinder liners will require machining to match individual piston choices, and builders will line-hone main bearing bores to match individual crank and bearing combination fitments).
• This is in addition to the many other unique features that are likely already known to the Mopar guys.
Availability:
We will be shipping during and throughout December. Blocks are not manufactured one-at-a-time. Sizable batch lots are machined through similar operations in sequence, meaning they do not get completed one-at-a-time but in a batch-lot by part number.
We are well stocked in all inventory items. Production will continue to pick up well into the new year. I anticipate we will hit our target of keeping shelf inventory of finished engine blocks during Q1 next year.
Product Lineup:
We’re making both HEMI and WEDGE blocks. Attached is a PDF list of Part Numbers and Block Specifications. Please download this to see the details. PM me if you have difficulty downloading or opening & I can email this to you. Broadly, our line-up comprises:
• HEMI and WEDGE engine blocks
• 4.240 and 4.490 semi-finished bore options
• Street and Race block options: The primary difference with the Race Block is that it has a raised cam location (+0.250 in), uses a large-diameter camshaft journal (65mm Babbit or 60mm Roller – both have the same O/D), and in the case of the HEMI adjustments to lifter spacing and angle to allow for geometry changes and improvements brought about by raising the camshaft).
• All blocks are water-jacketed, come with STD main journal diameter, STD 10.725 deck height.
Alternative Block Configurations: To address the questions around tall-deck, low-deck, 400 main journal sizes, solid blocks & alternative camshaft & lifter combinations:
• The product line-up we have specified fits around 95% of the market for HEMI and WEDGE engine blocks.
• The volume of these alternative combinations is extremely low and they’re all different. We have to run minimum batch lots per part number, so it is simply not viable for us to do this with every combination within the 5%.
• Therefore, we designed a “Pro” block that comes partly machined. Most of the time, our Dealers will be able to machine these engine blocks to final specifications that are “outside the norm”. I am happy to explain this in more detail in this thread if anyone wants to discuss it further, and there’s still some limitations on what’s possible.
• That said, we are doing a “one-off” run of tall-deck HEMI and WEDGE blocks right now, so if you have a need for one of these blocks please reach out to any one of our Dealers (listed below).
Pricing
We will keep our current HEMI and WEDGE engine block MSRP pricing at $6,895 (exclusive of taxes and shipping) for orders placed before 11/30/2018.
From 12/01/2018 MSRP will increase to $7,495 (excluding the “Pro” Blocks).
How to Order:
Our Dealers have already started taking orders (we don’t sell direct). Here’s a list of our Dealers and their contact details:
• For Hemis Only (Ontario, Canada). Tim Banning. Tel. +1-(905) 797-2459 e-mail: forhemisonly@gmail.com
• Ray Barton Racing Engines (Robesonia, PN) Ray Barton. Tel. +1-(610) 693-5700 e-mail: ray@raybarton.com
• Marsh Performance (Linwood, NC) Todd Marsh. Tel. +1-(336) 283-0800 e-mail: moparts@ptmc.net
• Best Machine Racing Engines (Farmington Hills, MI) Chuck Millen & Pete Costa. Tel. +1-(248) 987 6038 e-mail: bestmachineshelby@hotmail.com
• Bob Mazzolini Racing (Riverside, CA) Bob Mazzolini. Tel. +1-(951) 787-8783 e-mail: rpmazz@yahoo.com
• Team Bray Racing (Brisbane QLD, Australia) Contact Victor Bray. Tel. +61-(7) 3204-4454 e-mail: victor@teambrayracing.com
I welcome the opportunity to answer any questions here on this thread that you may have, even if just out of interest, to do with our manufacturing, block design and new features, pricing, why the market has had stop start block availability, all the stuff we’ve learned along the way, etc.
(If it’s something that relates to legal matters, specific customers, orders, old engine block information, or old parts then PM me as I won’t answer these questions publicly).
Thanks again for your support
Darren Beale, Keith Black, Inc.
-------------------------------- Darren Beale Keith Black Racing Engines®
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Re: Keith Black, Inc. - New HEMI and WEDGE engine blocks
[Re: Jeremiah]
#2569700
10/26/18 11:07 AM
10/26/18 11:07 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,279 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,279
PA.
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Great news. Thanks for the update.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.38@138.67
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Keith Black, Inc. - New HEMI and WEDGE engine blocks
[Re: Keith Black®]
#2569755
10/26/18 01:25 PM
10/26/18 01:25 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 740 Central TEXAS!!!!
sr4440
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 740
Central TEXAS!!!!
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how did you determine that "The product line-up we have specified fits around 95% of the market for HEMI and WEDGE engine blocks."? your saying less then 5% want a 400 deck block? I have found that 86.4% of statistics are made up on the spot to support the persons view.
Joe
Without Data, you’re just another guy with an opinion.
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Re: Keith Black, Inc. - New HEMI and WEDGE engine blocks
[Re: dart games]
#2569767
10/26/18 01:56 PM
10/26/18 01:56 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,131 Massillon, Ohio
cudatom
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,131
Massillon, Ohio
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great news,much rather used kieth black than anything from indy Me as well which is why I ordered one. Wanted a LD but not enough to order an Indy Block vs the KB.
Ok
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Re: Keith Black, Inc. - New HEMI and WEDGE engine blocks
[Re: Keith Black®]
#2569781
10/26/18 02:32 PM
10/26/18 02:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,586 Minnesota
Hemi_Joel
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,586
Minnesota
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Great work, Darren! Are you going to offer a gear drive setup for the raised cam blocks?
[img]http://i.imgur.com/boeexFms.jpg[/img]31 Plymouth Coupe, 392 Hemi, T56 magnum RS23J71 RS27J77 RP23J71 RO23J71 WM21J8A I don't regret the things I've done. I only regret the things I didn't do. "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something. ~ Plato"
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Re: Keith Black, Inc. - New HEMI and WEDGE engine blocks
[Re: Keith Black®]
#2569793
10/26/18 02:51 PM
10/26/18 02:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,696 Motor City
6PKRTSE
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,696
Motor City
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As great as this is to read & hear just still way to much $$$ for me & my budget. I always have to buy the windowed used up junk & repair those to be able to run what I have.
Hate to say it, but next time around for me it will probably be a Big Block Chevy...
1963 Belvedere 440 Max Wedge Tribute 1970 Charger R/T S.E. 440 Six Pack 1970 Challenger R/T, 528 Hemi 1970 Charger 500 S.E. 440 4 BBL 1970 Plymouth Road Runner 383 1974 Chrysler New Yorker 440 1996 2500 RAM 488 V-10 4X4 2004 3500 Dually Cummins 4x4 2012 Challenger R/T Classic.
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Re: Keith Black, Inc. - New HEMI and WEDGE engine blocks
[Re: 6PKRTSE]
#2569801
10/26/18 03:06 PM
10/26/18 03:06 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,279 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,279
PA.
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I still have the paper work from my Keith Black block that I bought back in 2008-2009 and if I remember right it cost 5400.00 plus shipping. From the sounds of this block it is made for pushrod oiling that was an option on my block that I didn't order but ended up paying for later. If you build a scrap stock block you probably have 1100.00 in it without machine work for a girdle if you chose to run one, then the cost of the plate and caps, plus 50.00 for concrete. Then its still a piece of CRAP stock block in any high horsepower build. Pay me once or pay me twice.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.38@138.67
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Keith Black, Inc. - New HEMI and WEDGE engine blocks
[Re: Jeremiah]
#2569851
10/26/18 04:48 PM
10/26/18 04:48 PM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,212 QLD Australia
Keith Black®
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,212
QLD Australia
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Jeremiah:
The Pro block is a water block and limited to: • tall deck • STD (10.725) deck
This is because we have not yet developed the water jacket core tooling for low-deck casting.
With no other changes, as you reduce the deck height the deck material thins-out. This requires that you have a different water jacket to maintain the super-thick deck surface that our block has.
There are other considerations with the water jacket cores on low deck blocks: the valvetrain setup on the HEMI block is terrible, when you lower everything – it gets even worse (see attached image of pushrod angularity and proximity on STD blocks alone). This makes the water jacket core design super critical to avoid thin areas. While the same pushrod clearance issues wouldn’t apply to a low-deck Wedge-type-head setup, we could not justify making two different sets of cores for Wedge and HEMI Low-deck blocks given their low demand.
If we had sufficient numbers of people committed to placing orders for low-deck water blocks I would investigate introducing low deck Part Numbers (P/N’s) (and we may get there over time). However, new P/N’s require new digital design assets, new CAM with tool-path programs by our machinists, and adapted QC processes to probe and verify block integrity at completion as well. Right now we are flat out on conventional blocks.
Additionally, if people are seeking 400-style main journal diameters we would need to make design changes & machine different 4340 main bearing caps, run minimum batch lots and carry inventory of these items. The machining of the main-line is a critical and tight-tolerance operation (given material differences between A356 and 4340 billet), and we would need to adequately test this with the smaller I/D main caps as well.
Hopefully this provides enough background to the current status of the short-deck block.
-------------------------------- Darren Beale Keith Black Racing Engines®
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Re: Keith Black, Inc. - New HEMI and WEDGE engine blocks
[Re: sr4440]
#2569857
10/26/18 05:05 PM
10/26/18 05:05 PM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,212 QLD Australia
Keith Black®
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,212
QLD Australia
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how did you determine that "The product line-up we have specified fits around 95% of the market for HEMI and WEDGE engine blocks."? your saying less then 5% want a 400 deck block? I have found that 86.4% of statistics are made up on the spot to support the persons view.
Joe Lol Joe. I have over 40 years of our manufacturing & sales data, plus the same from our Dealers (who represent substantially the larger part of all HEMI and WEDGE engine block sales today). I reckon I have a good understanding of the market size and segmentation & don't believe I have a "confirmation bias". The 5% includes not only 400 deck heights but every exception outside our core product lineup. Still, we would look at it if we had the numbers just not in the next 4 or so months.
-------------------------------- Darren Beale Keith Black Racing Engines®
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Re: Keith Black, Inc. - New HEMI and WEDGE engine blocks
[Re: 6PKRTSE]
#2569869
10/26/18 05:26 PM
10/26/18 05:26 PM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,212 QLD Australia
Keith Black®
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,212
QLD Australia
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As great as this is to read & hear just still way to much $$$ for me & my budget. I always have to buy the windowed used up junk & repair those to be able to run what I have.
Hate to say it, but next time around for me it will probably be a Big Block Chevy... Sadly, it's a really expensive and difficult block to make. High quality Brodix Aluminum Big Block Chevrolet blocks are for sale on Summit now for between $6,800 and $7,000, and there's way less material and machining involved in these blocks. I have a Big Block Chevrolet going into production very shortly.
-------------------------------- Darren Beale Keith Black Racing Engines®
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Re: Keith Black, Inc. - New HEMI and WEDGE engine blocks
[Re: Keith Black®]
#2569871
10/26/18 05:40 PM
10/26/18 05:40 PM
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crabman173
Unregistered
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crabman173
Unregistered
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Chevy guys always going for taller decks and wider spacing only Mopar guys want a damn low deck--just so headers fit better????? LOL Forget That and just keep on like you are doing which is...Fantastic! Hats off to all of the crew that has made this possible--and now you guys get to buy from a business man vs buying from uhh...starts with a C
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Re: Keith Black, Inc. - New HEMI and WEDGE engine blocks
[Re: AndyF]
#2569892
10/26/18 06:17 PM
10/26/18 06:17 PM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,212 QLD Australia
Keith Black®
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,212
QLD Australia
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If you do make a low deck block in the future you should just keep the 440 size mains in it. No reason to go with the smaller mains since there aren't good bearings for the smaller size anyway. And anyone who needs that strong of a block will need good bearings and a strong crank. Good advise Andy. About time we caught up.
-------------------------------- Darren Beale Keith Black Racing Engines®
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Re: Keith Black, Inc. - New HEMI and WEDGE engine blocks
[Re: ]
#2569901
10/26/18 06:28 PM
10/26/18 06:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,396 The Pale Blue Dot
Skeptic
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,396
The Pale Blue Dot
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Chevy guys always going for taller decks and wider spacing only Mopar guys want a damn low deck--just so headers fit better????? LOL Forget That and just keep on like you are doing which is...Fantastic! Hats off to all of the crew that has made this possible--and now you guys get to buy from a business man vs buying from uhh...starts with a C Since the regular BBC is .180" shorter than a LOW deck and a the BBC "tall" deck is .525" shorter than an RB, they really start out on the short end of the stick.
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