Keith Black, Inc. - New HEMI and WEDGE engine blocks

Here is the long-awaited news.

We are manufacturing engine blocks now.

I have just had three weeks in the US and Canada working alongside our key manufacturing partners to ensure we have a continuous, permanent, ongoing supply of engine blocks to the market.

We are manufacturing across 4 locations to guarantee quality, redundancy, scalability and certainty in engine block supply – from all our manufacturing partners and suppliers. This is a long post, but should provide a detailed overview of the lineup.

Our new HEMI and WEDGE engine blocks, now have these features:

• High grade A356 T-6 Heat Treated Aluminum, made with all new tooling. Our blocks are cast using state of the art low-pressure casting technology to increase densification in key structural areas of the engine block (previously all blocks were gravity cast).

• Revised water jackets – through modern approaches to design we have eliminated risks around internal core shift of water jackets. All our castings will hold core tolerances to 1 mm radially. All internal wall sections have been increased to >= 0.300 in.

• We have added a small china wall to very front of the foremost lifter bosses. This helps pool oil around the lifters for cylinders 1 and 2, previously an area that allowed oil to quickly drain away and not receive the full lubrication benefit the other lifter pairs had.

• We have added +0.25 in radial material to the block where the cam journals are machined. Our block will support cam journal diameters of 65mm (babbit) and 60mm (roller) the largest in the market.

• All main stud and head stud internal threads are now machined as rolled threads. In addition to the already stronger fastener specifications of our blocks (which I am happy to outline if anyone is interested). Rolled threads are significantly stronger and resistant to thread pulling (which is commonplace with our competitors’ aluminium blocks).

• Re-engineered and vastly improved internal oiling – our engine blocks now provide full-time oil to the lifters direct from the main oil galley.

• Cylinder heads still get oil through the deck, but it is now restricted (as it is now receiving full-time pressure). We have now also included provisions for separate rock-gear-oil-feed-lines that tap directly into the lifter oil galley bosses.

• Provision for Dry-Sump – our block provides a cast & machined-in provision for direct-oil-feed into the main galley (such as in a dry-sump or accumulator-based system). This provision at the rear of the LH bank on top of the bellhousing face (see attached image).

• EPCO OEM spec Zero-Leak-Gold engine-sealing plugs (core plugs and galley plugs). These plugs have a superior design for dual sealing both by way of both taper & machine fit and neoprene- seal. They are widely used by OEM’s. The added benefit is that these are shelf items and available direct from the manufacturer, not requiring expensive one-off plugs if customers want replacements.

• We use a proprietary Darton Sleeve with extremely-high nodular density and material strength. Our blocks are machined with a specific surface finish and interference to work with these sleeves for maximum thermal transfer and stability.

• All our blocks use 4340 billet main bearing caps machined to very close tolerances, dual-registering both on the proprietary main cap stud as well as in the block itself. We use ARP 5/8-9/16 stepped primary fasteners and double-1/2 in.-cross bolts on main caps 2, 3, & 4 (the load bearing main caps).

• Close Tolerance Machining –our engine blocks are machined to extremely tight tolerances. This means that minimal if any finish machining is required, which is more often the case with other engine blocks (cylinder liners will require machining to match individual piston choices, and builders will line-hone main bearing bores to match individual crank and bearing combination fitments).

• This is in addition to the many other unique features that are likely already known to the Mopar guys.

Availability:

We will be shipping during and throughout December. Blocks are not manufactured one-at-a-time. Sizable batch lots are machined through similar operations in sequence, meaning they do not get completed one-at-a-time but in a batch-lot by part number.

We are well stocked in all inventory items. Production will continue to pick up well into the new year. I anticipate we will hit our target of keeping shelf inventory of finished engine blocks during Q1 next year.

Product Lineup:

We’re making both HEMI and WEDGE blocks. Attached is a PDF list of Part Numbers and Block Specifications. Please download this to see the details. PM me if you have difficulty downloading or opening & I can email this to you. Broadly, our line-up comprises:

• HEMI and WEDGE engine blocks

• 4.240 and 4.490 semi-finished bore options

• Street and Race block options: The primary difference with the Race Block is that it has a raised cam location (+0.250 in), uses a large-diameter camshaft journal (65mm Babbit or 60mm Roller – both have the same O/D), and in the case of the HEMI adjustments to lifter spacing and angle to allow for geometry changes and improvements brought about by raising the camshaft).

• All blocks are water-jacketed, come with STD main journal diameter, STD 10.725 deck height.

Alternative Block Configurations: To address the questions around tall-deck, low-deck, 400 main journal sizes, solid blocks & alternative camshaft & lifter combinations:

• The product line-up we have specified fits around 95% of the market for HEMI and WEDGE engine blocks.

• The volume of these alternative combinations is extremely low and they’re all different. We have to run minimum batch lots per part number, so it is simply not viable for us to do this with every combination within the 5%.

• Therefore, we designed a “Pro” block that comes partly machined. Most of the time, our Dealers will be able to machine these engine blocks to final specifications that are “outside the norm”. I am happy to explain this in more detail in this thread if anyone wants to discuss it further, and there’s still some limitations on what’s possible.

• That said, we are doing a “one-off” run of tall-deck HEMI and WEDGE blocks right now, so if you have a need for one of these blocks please reach out to any one of our Dealers (listed below).

Pricing

We will keep our current HEMI and WEDGE engine block MSRP pricing at $6,895 (exclusive of taxes and shipping) for orders placed before 11/30/2018.

From 12/01/2018 MSRP will increase to $7,495 (excluding the “Pro” Blocks).

How to Order:

Our Dealers have already started taking orders (we don’t sell direct). Here’s a list of our Dealers and their contact details:

• For Hemis Only (Ontario, Canada).
Tim Banning. Tel. +1-(905) 797-2459 e-mail: forhemisonly@gmail.com

• Ray Barton Racing Engines (Robesonia, PN)
Ray Barton. Tel. +1-(610) 693-5700 e-mail: ray@raybarton.com

• Marsh Performance (Linwood, NC)
Todd Marsh. Tel. +1-(336) 283-0800 e-mail: moparts@ptmc.net

• Best Machine Racing Engines (Farmington Hills, MI)
Chuck Millen & Pete Costa. Tel. +1-(248) 987 6038 e-mail: bestmachineshelby@hotmail.com

• Bob Mazzolini Racing (Riverside, CA)
Bob Mazzolini. Tel. +1-(951) 787-8783 e-mail: rpmazz@yahoo.com

• Team Bray Racing (Brisbane QLD, Australia)
Contact Victor Bray. Tel. +61-(7) 3204-4454 e-mail: victor@teambrayracing.com

I welcome the opportunity to answer any questions here on this thread that you may have, even if just out of interest, to do with our manufacturing, block design and new features, pricing, why the market has had stop start block availability, all the stuff we’ve learned along the way, etc.

(If it’s something that relates to legal matters, specific customers, orders, old engine block information, or old parts then PM me as I won’t answer these questions publicly).

Thanks again for your support

Darren Beale,
Keith Black, Inc.

Great news for Mopar racers. Thank you for well written informative post. Can we talk about the pro block limitations? Can one be machined at 400/b block deck height?

Great news. Thanks for the update.

Will these or a selected batch be a full water jacketed block ie:(street) or Siamese bore?
Of course I reckon these will also accept traditional 727 trans bolt patterns out back.

Also, are these blocks machined already for internal oil pick ups or designed for external pick ups only?

Print out the attachment. All the details are there.

great news,much rather used kieth black than anything from indy

is there a website for this

how did you determine that "The product line-up we have specified fits around 95% of the market for HEMI and WEDGE engine blocks."?
your saying less then 5% want a 400 deck block?
I have found that 86.4% of statistics are made up on the spot to support the persons view.


Joe

Me as well which is why I ordered one. Wanted a LD but not enough to order an Indy Block vs the KB.

Great work, Darren! Are you going to offer a gear drive setup for the raised cam blocks?

There are gear drives available for the raised cam.

As great as this is to read & hear just still way to much $$$ for me & my budget. I always have to buy the windowed used up junk & repair those to be able to run what I have.

Hate to say it, but next time around for me it will probably be a Big Block Chevy...

I still have the paper work from my Keith Black block that I bought back in 2008-2009 and if I remember right it cost 5400.00 plus shipping. From the sounds of this block it is made for pushrod oiling that was an option on my block that I didn't order but ended up paying for later. If you build a scrap stock block you probably have 1100.00 in it without machine work for a girdle if you chose to run one, then the cost of the plate and caps, plus 50.00 for concrete. Then its still a piece of CRAP stock block in any high horsepower build. Pay me once or pay me twice.

Jeremiah:

The Pro block is a water block and limited to:
• tall deck
• STD (10.725) deck

This is because we have not yet developed the water jacket core tooling for low-deck casting.

With no other changes, as you reduce the deck height the deck material thins-out. This requires that you have a different water jacket to maintain the super-thick deck surface that our block has.

There are other considerations with the water jacket cores on low deck blocks: the valvetrain setup on the HEMI block is terrible, when you lower everything – it gets even worse (see attached image of pushrod angularity and proximity on STD blocks alone). This makes the water jacket core design super critical to avoid thin areas. While the same pushrod clearance issues wouldn’t apply to a low-deck Wedge-type-head setup, we could not justify making two different sets of cores for Wedge and HEMI Low-deck blocks given their low demand.

If we had sufficient numbers of people committed to placing orders for low-deck water blocks I would investigate introducing low deck Part Numbers (P/N’s) (and we may get there over time). However, new P/N’s require new digital design assets, new CAM with tool-path programs by our machinists, and adapted QC processes to probe and verify block integrity at completion as well. Right now we are flat out on conventional blocks.

Additionally, if people are seeking 400-style main journal diameters we would need to make design changes & machine different 4340 main bearing caps, run minimum batch lots and carry inventory of these items. The machining of the main-line is a critical and tight-tolerance operation (given material differences between A356 and 4340 billet), and we would need to adequately test this with the smaller I/D main caps as well.

Hopefully this provides enough background to the current status of the short-deck block.

Lol Joe.
I have over 40 years of our manufacturing & sales data, plus the same from our Dealers (who represent substantially the larger part of all HEMI and WEDGE engine block sales today). I reckon I have a good understanding of the market size and segmentation & don't believe I have a "confirmation bias". The 5% includes not only 400 deck heights but every exception outside our core product lineup.

Still, we would look at it if we had the numbers just not in the next 4 or so months.

Sadly, it's a really expensive and difficult block to make.

High quality Brodix Aluminum Big Block Chevrolet blocks are for sale on Summit now for between $6,800 and $7,000, and there's way less material and machining involved in these blocks.

I have a Big Block Chevrolet going into production very shortly.

Chevy guys always going for taller decks and wider spacing only Mopar guys want a damn low deck--just so headers fit better????? LOL
Forget That and just keep on like you are doing which is...Fantastic! Hats off to all of the crew that has made this possible--and now you guys get to buy from a business man vs buying from uhh...starts with a C

If you do make a low deck block in the future you should just keep the 440 size mains in it. No reason to go with the smaller mains since there aren't good bearings for the smaller size anyway. And anyone who needs that strong of a block will need good bearings and a strong crank.

Good advise Andy. About time we caught up.

Since the regular BBC is .180" shorter than a LOW deck and a the BBC "tall" deck is .525" shorter than an RB, they really start out on the short end of the stick.

This is great news.
The new block is priced about right for the improvements incorporated in it.

The news is too late to help me now, I ended up going with a BBC, so I will be able to get the car out.

My car was built for a KB hemi, I still have the hemi headers and motor plates. So a new KB hemi will be an option for me in about a year.

which is why it fits better in a lot of applications

Nope has nothing to do with headers. Its hood clearance. I don't want to run an ugly aero scoop or misproportioned hemi scoop(you pick the year. They all turn ugly once the dimensions are changed).

The next choice is a cowl which is fine but they get stupid looking the taller they get.

For those that think the price is high the last few mega blocks I found were listed from $6500 and up.

Well done.
From a future customer.

I have no problem waiting but if you decide that you need to gauge interest by taking a deposit, the only question i will ask is "where do i send my money"?

Joe

When we built the roadster, we built it around a 400 block. in order to put a RB block in it, i would need to modify the chassis and the steering along with changing the hood line or adding a dry sump. Here's a fun fact, B1 heads/intake are designed for a 400 block.

Joe

Funny everyone complains there is nothing . Finally a quality item is produced and there is still complaints . Order now for a discount , pretty good
Anyone ex USA has it a lot tougher $ wise . I and others wish we could simply pay $7000.00 for a KB . I would be looking at closer to Aus$12000.00
I got lucky and found a new Workd block , and not for other brand price

Good luck Darren and partners . And thanks for the time you gave me to talk about the blocks . Maybe if Lotto comes up .


Tex

Well apparently the Hooker fenderwells will fit either a low deck or a tall deck sooooo.....

Although if I were to want a low deck I agree with AndyF, I would want the 440 crank journals in the block


Also do you have a weight on the wedge block? I printed the PDF and dont see a weight

Yes, I KNOW this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison, but the NHRA Pro Stock 500" engines have all been getting shorter over the years. I can't recall where I saw something online that went into details on how & why they've evolved in this direction. If I find it, I'll post a link. EDIT: LINK

As far as the block news, sweet... I'm not a prospective customer, but am happy to hear this is really happening for those that are.

I know this but Andy was right just stay with 440 main size and have some bearings to choose from and why can't tall and more CI be Ok? why do you all have to plan a Pro Stock engine?? Use what is out there go big and run fast simply

Thank you Darren for bring back KB and moving the company and the sport forward.

I am a small block guy and probably not a future customer, however I appreciate what your company is doing for our sport.

Bill Lamb

+1

I'd want a low deck for 400"-480" wedge. But unless it's class rules why build that small? No reason I can think of. In that case tall deck for sure.
Doug

Not everyone wants a 10,000 rpm engine.

It is nice to finally hear something “right from the horses mouth”, so to say. Never was really certain what to believe before. Seems pricey, but my finished raised cam Indy block came in right under $8000.00 from Barton 3 1/2 years ago, so considering time and inflation, it’s not bad. As Moetown stated and did, I strayed and picked up a 583 ci aluminum block R-M BBC, it dyno’d over a 100 hp more than my 588 wedge and cost $8500.00 less to build, hard to let the economical sense in that go unnoticed when racing on your own nickel. I’m glad for those who are in need, and would at some point like to go with a bigger wedge, and it will be with this block. Jim

What I can’t understand is why the sell-out guys that switched to chevies still hang out on a Mopar website. Lots of good Chevy sites out there

Race both of them buddy.

So a Mopar isn’t a Mopar, if it’s powered by a chevy?
So that means, a Mopar powered chevy, is a Mopar, and not a chevy?

You got it. Just like an LS Chevy powered Duster. Junk

LOL!

Quoted for truth. The LS is an UGLY engine. So is the "new" Hemi. These engines are so ugly they make covers for them.

Sad

You missed (or ignored) the point.

David K. said the only reason for a shorter deck height was improving header clearance. The linked article outlined how NHRA Pro Stock engine programs found numerous performance benefits associated with shorter deck heights.

Simply because those improvements might be comparably insignificant for engines making below what a modern Pro Stock makes doesn't mean it's not a better approach when you can apply it.

Clueless........

Nice, great job with this post. Like I have said before these blocks are a work of Art and the improvements you can not see are fantastic unless you look at the Schematics or blue prints. Your list of improvements is great read all Darren has posted. One of my friends that found a Main stud in the bottom of his oil pan that should of been in the main of his Indy Block after 8.70 passes that weekend and the stud ends up in the pan. Guess what block he is waiting to come in for his next Hemi Build, the New KB Block. Great job to all that were involved to make it come together. Some time you wonder why you can not get a few of the builders on the phone or it takes so long to build your hemi motor this is because they have been busy trying to improve the block with a better product and really have built a better mouse trap than was offered prior to this block.

I'm very impressed. That looks like great value to me. I've dealt with the cheaper alternatives and cheaper isn't generally better value.

Thank you for the explanation Darren. It makes sense to me that most people at this level would want big cubes.

Attitudes like that make it real hard to stay on this website at all. I've been a member here since about 2004 off and on.

I bought the car to go racing, not hope that the mopar block gods would start making blocks again someday.

I actually don't care what anybody thinks about the car having a bbc engine, pg trans and a ford rear end.

If you don't like my 4130 tube chassis 70 challenger that has a title and build sheet, look for another one.

So why come on a Keith Black MOPAR post and tell us about your Chevy love.

John has a strong point there!!!!!

I don't know if you are stupid or just can't read, could be both. So I will quote my original post. Try and read the last line, SLOWWWWW.

I don't know if you are stupid or just can't read, could be both. So I will quote my original post. Try and read the last line, SLOWWWWW.

It doesn't matter what you have Moetown. Some people just don't get the guys that like to turn on win lights, even if it's with a purpose built race engine without the Pentastar. They don't understand why someone wouldn't sit around years with money paid for, but waiting for a block.

I applaud Darren and crew for sticking with this project and making good on promises another guy wasn't willing to make right, and collected money for something another person delivered. Heck, if people listened to Pittsburgh Racer, Darren and crew would have had a lot more blocks to supply for free.

I'm glad for people like Darren, Todd, Ray, and Tim. They are the only reason these are available.

LOL. Dragster guys don't count.

I would buy a low deck block today if one were available.

IMO and FWIW a 60/65MM cam core is not something necessary for almost anyone building one. Not to mention the 60/65MM cores for Wedge headed deals are not exactly sitting on shelves everywhere if anywhere right now. I have a Wedge block on order and was wanting a 55MM core as we already have the cams and for what I'm doing a 60/65 is an additional unneeded expense. Sure would like to hear the rationale behind this decision. For a boosted Hemi or a max effort NA deal I might understand it but for the overwhelming majority of these builds I just cannot see it. I have a 60 in my Predator and it makes sense there, we also have one in the SBC Heads up deal, but we are talking 10K plus RPM with it.

^^^Always wonder the advantages of the 60/65 roller option^^^

Generally speaking
The trend in drag engines is Bigger, bigger, bigger
Look at Kasse, Leonard, Shaffirof's , Bucks's etc
They are in the 900 CI range every day so looking at those Beautiful new Mopar blocks that you have all waited a decade on and whining about wanting a low deck just seems silly to me
But hey..it is the norm on here

And that Chevy Love deal? Like the man says I race both I love any combo that runs good and fulfills my love of V-8 song and like the other guys says--Glide and 9 in Ford in a Mopar? What do you call that? Most likely a winner with a reliable trans brake

Ya'll have fun on this topic
Thanks to the KB guys that yanked those blocks to the finish line!!!

No doubt the Chrysler guys are always late for the party. A low deck is just plain ridiculous when 95% (or more) of the builds done today need a tall deck and it will only be a higher percentage as time goes by.

The low deck deal is no different than running stock style rockers. Guys wouldn't buy W-2 heads because they had to buy rockers. It's insane really.

I always thought the Predator head was a giant waste without a 5.0 bore space block. A 4.800 or even the 4.840 bore space is just too damn tight for any meaningful power.

I'll be dead in a relatively short time frame (I'm getting old) and I've waited my entire adult life for the Chrysler crowd to grow up and realize if you want to go fast, you don't do it with 1960's technology. I mean really, the B-1 head in all its machinations is at very best, early 1990's stuff. Yet we want a new head from TF that takes stock everything for both engine platforms.

The G3 hemi will be the exact same. The GM and Dorf crowd will spend enough money to obsolete whatever Fiat decides they want to spend on. And when the time comes to spend more money on non-OE parts that's where that platform will stall.


Look at what Bob Book is doing with the SB platform using blocks that are early 2000's crap. What if he had something updated? He'd KILL the record even more. But I digress. We all know the outcome. Maskin isn't a raving lunatic. He knows the market. If any blocks are ever produced (which I put in the 1% range) it will fade quickly. Evidently, I've never had my hands on a Ritter block, but we hear the squealing from guys who don't think they should have to line hone or deck a block after buying it! Maybe the Ritter is no better than a 2001 weak ass turd, but I doubt that. Book is no dummy so I'm assuming he's looked into the Ritter stuff. I'm not sure why Ritter and Book couldn't get together and make what Kent already has more than what he needs. Ego and politics certainly factor in.


Anyway, rant off.

Low deck is the hip deal in Pro stock etc because they get it--Bigger bore shorter stroke makes HP!! BUT..you have to turn it insane amount of RPM
Well...Not insane for Them with the finest parts on the planet BUT for us--the ones on this site that mostly bracket race--High RPM builds are silly if you are doing them on an average racers budget and if you have a budget well..you call an engine shop tell them what you weigh, trans, etc and how fast you want to go then you go pay up and load up and you DO NOT design it yourself--Because you do not know what they know
Just because you have scissors--don't make you a barber

Obsolete PS stuff is available for pennies on the dollar, if you have a class that fits 500 inch type builds. Around here, you have classes for 565/582 and 632 inch stuff most commonly, so that's where we're looking for parts. S/F....Ken M

less deflection under load. With high spring pressures and boost taking its toll on the exhaust side that's where the larger cams shine.

I absolutely understand stroke/bore and RPM and making horsepower, but we are talking about guys running stroker stuff.

If I never see a stroke over 3.79 for a small block and 4.25 for a big block it wouldn't hurt my feelings.

FWIW I have had TWO low deck KB blocks and believe they have a place. But admittedly the sales numbers probably do not justify having the availability. FWIW both mine were over 1000 hp deals, for us weight freaks it was a nice option to have every ounce counts I guess

Apology for slow reply. I'm wearing a few hats at the moment. Lol.

Our Race block is a maximum performance engine block. We made design revisions to best set us up for the future, taking full advantage of new developments that add to the strength of engines built with our blocks.

There are other options available in the market for anyone seeking a lesser option or looking to recycle existing parts. The orders we have already received for use with a 60mm cam, have been overwhelming.

Alternatively, our Dealers can machine one of our 'Pro' blocks for 55mm core camshafts. Important to where we position our HEMI, WEDGE and upcoming engine block products is that we never want them to be 'the almost strongest' engine blocks.

Here's some more info for people who are interested:

New oiling features provide the ability to feed high pressure oil straight into the block & main oil galley:

All our blocks now come with 4340 Billet main bearing caps STD.
5/8-9/16 primary main studs w/ blind-tapped, rolled threads machined into block.
4 x 1/2 in cross bolts per cap on #2, #3, #4.
Large 0.250 in radii on main bearing bulkheads by design.

That is sexy looking, Darren your influencing me to almost want to build a a G2 again, instead of a G3

Great work , that block looks like one stout piece.

Did the earlier blocks have an oil feed in the side of the block right in the area below the head?

Never mind this ? there's plenty of pic here on Best machine fb page.

No provisions on the old block .

Thaxs

Wow. That's a whole lot of pretty parts there...

Our new HEMI engine blocks being machined ...

Awesome, now I just need to hit the lotto.....

For what that block will cost new, Alot of people don't even have that much in the whole car....😁

Premium item, small number of buyers, premium price follows.

I think there are plenty of people who, after buying a new kb will part with their indy, or mega, or whatever. That will make a fair supply of good quality stuff for guys on a tighter budget that might not have been previously available...

Man, that is some nice stuff. What would be the biggest bore for that block? Are you going to offer blocks with different bore spacing? Are all of your blocks water blocks or is there a solid block option? Rumor has it that the Indy solid block is stronger than their own water block. Does the same hold true for your blocks?

Prove it, show receipts.

That's nice any wedges being machine yet?

Racerx, We're doing HEMI's and WEDGE's.

Sgcuda, there's a few interesting questions there. We are looking at a 4.900/5.000 bore space block, but it is number 4 in our current product development plan, so a little while off.

Mostly, builders try to stay under 4.530 although I am sure people have taken them further - just not much of a need to.

Solid vs Water blocks: Interestingly, the early KB blocks that ran top fuel were water jacketed with limited supporting material (wet sleeve). They had proven themselves at 6,000+ hp, so at really high cylinder pressures.
We have a minimum of .300 Aluminum around each sleeve which is already very thick. The main purpose of the solid blocks is not really strength, but to build heat in Alcohol applications.
That said we will be doing runs of solid blocks, and these will be sold as "Pro" blocks for finish machining by our Dealers.

I can't speak for the Indy Blocks, they're pretty good for their intended use. Our engine blocks are a precision-machined piece, with its design roots in powering top-fuel level power.

Here's a picture showing the head-fastener & clamping load comparison.

Some more pictures..

This site really needs a "like" button. I'm seriously considering a wedge block.

fixturing looks really good. do you have any pics of it ? also, what machine are you using, horsepower of the motor, and what is the spindle taper ? TIA.

Looks good. If everything can get machined in the same setup then the accuracy goes way up. Lifter bores are in the correct place and in the same line as the cylinder bores and stuff like that. From what I've seen, some of the other folks move the blocks around from machine to machine for different operations which is why the lifter bores sometimes don't point in the same direction as the cylinders. With that type of machine capability you guys should be able to get everything dead nuts on.

Hello Darren,

Blocks sure do look good. Couple questions:

4.800 bore spacing. So at a 4.500 cylinder bore, there is a total of
.300 of metal between the bore surfaces (I'm assuming they are
siamesed cylinders). What is the OD of a cylinder liner ? What I'm
getting at is, how thick is the aluminum between the bores ?
Then, when overboring the liners, how much overbore can you go, i.e.,
how thin (wall thickness) can you go with the liners ?

Thank you !

Most aluminum blocks are thin enough between the bores when the liners are removed, to cut with a tin snips.

Ive had 8 or 10 kb blocks over the years and still have 5..Not a single one of them have the lifter botes located properly. You can get different cam timing readings from one cylinder to another. Not the end of the world, and not radically different, just different. Also not isolated to the old KB, most blocks are like that even "cnc" machined. I think the problem begins with using the cam bore as the alignment for swinging the block from one bank to the other with it being held on the mains. Lots of distance in those swings, and problems relying on that to create inaccuracies.(also is not cam causing the reading changes)

I'm confident the new blocks won't suffer from these maladies. Would be a great improvement for KB

If the lifter bores aren't in the correct location then that is the fault of whoever designed the machining process. Everything that is performed in the same setup should be very precisely located. The problem is that most of the folks who have made Mopar blocks over the past 20 years haven't taken the time to do the machine setup correctly. They move the block from machine to machine and lose the reference points in the process.

All you have to do is walk thru a shop and you can tell in a few minutes if the block is going to be accurate or not. If workers are moving the blocks from machine to machine then it won't be accurate. If the block is bolted to a tombstone and is in a giant VMC or horizontal and all operations are done in the same setup then it will be dead nuts on unless someone screws up the programming or loads the wrong tool into the machine.

I never visited the old KB mfg site but I talked to a person who was familiar with it and he said it was basically a blacksmith shop. The old KB hadn't stepped up to modern equipment and they were moving blocks from machine to machine and doing hand operations. So of course the lifter bores were out of whack and the cam bearings weren't aligned and all of that kind of stuff. If you don't have the right tool you can't do the job correctly........

I see it on most every block that the process involves the block being pivoted back and forth, even on the same machine/ same process/ same setup using the cam tunnel with a bar through it and one through the mains. Even done on large cnc machine centers.

For sure the old kb place had become a cobblers workshop, but the lifter problem is tough for some reason. Ive even seen it in billet blocks where all points of reference were derived on the start.

Like i said i feel good that KB (NEW KB) will have this sorted out either by doing it, or giving the blocks to competent people to do it.

Just for fun check the cam timing front, to back, bank, to bank on most anything, provided you have a accurate cam. Since in most cases it can't be practically corrected once done, it explains some of the weirdness in individual cylinder timing beyond the normal patterns for different firing orders.

Talk to Chuck at Best Machine about lifter bore positioning. They do it on their Rottler and get it correct. From what I understand the lifter bore positioning from Indy was so bad that Best started to buy the blocks unmachined and they finish them at their shop.

So it doesn't take a huge machine, it just takes a good machinist who pays attention to the setup and gets the block properly fixtured and indexed. Sadly it appears that lots of people have problems doing this. I've heard that Indy, the old KB and even the new block that Muscle Motors was selling all have had lifter bore issues.

Yeah, I know bestM does nice work, and talk to Chuck on occasion. Also watch WJ and Kurt work on getting it perfect.

For sure one of those problems lurking in lots of blocks. Just seems there's always something. I've never had a perfect block, but im sure someone does somewhere lol.

Does factor into my individual cylinder timing program when a cylinder has different cam timing. That is on the ones i take time to check. I was happier when i didn't know they were off lol.

That's just the static part. Now throw on 16 lifters pushing 700lb springs with a 1.5 rocker ratio, driven by a crankshaft that's jumping all over the place, twisting and untwisting as it bends and generally does the Watusi.

Metal doesn't begin to work unless it is stretched or squished. The impression of rigidity that we get looking at parts lying static is totally wrong.

I'd be willing to bet that driving the camshaft from both ends or maybe from the middle would show power gains on high perf engines. I am sure that's one reason why the cams are getting larger and larger in diameter, seeing how the torsional rigidity increases as the cube of the diameter increase.

R.

Andy you're a CNC guy as am I. I use a MAZAK Integrex 1850-V 5 axis and have built block fixturing for what can be considered one setup block machining. Still the cam bore and main bores are an issue. Everything will need a lick with a hone to become true round. Horizontal boring is not near as accurate as vertical unless using a piloted arbor. That right angle drive bore head will not be accurate . As you have pointed out a machinist never likes to break setup. Well it still takes a vigilant machinist as CNC's can do wrong. In fact I was chasing tolerances all over until I tracked it down to a worn X-axis ballscrew. It was worn .024" . $30k repair.... It takes a BIG RIGID machine with power to produce (whether it be accuracy or volume or both). J.Rob

x2

absolutely ! see what happens if a wrong tool is picked up. the fun begins there, and if not vigilant, "stuff" happens in the blink of an eye or quicker. then you hear that "expensive" sound.
rigidity of the machine and fixturing is the key to producing quality parts, as well as sharp [and correct for the task] tooling.
along with worn ballscrews, worn tooling spindles can cause one to sometimes tear his hair out until the problem is found and corrected.
in the CNC machining field, bigger [and more powerful] is usually better, especially in high production.
just my opinion from over 42yrs in this trade.

^^^^^This guy gets it. The RMC pictured will get its [censored] kicked in a production environment. One off OK no problem.

Not entirely true. But having better tools makes it easier and quicker. I have a buddy in Tampa that is an excellent machinist, former tool and die guy and builds kick butt engines. He has all the old school machines, but he has to measure and take his time to get it right. He likes to hold things to .0001" tolerances. He is not cheap though. I spent $1k on brand new Manley Hemi rods getting them fixed since they galled the rod bolts from the factory. We put in new rod bolts and tubular dowels, he ground the caps down and resized the big ends. So I have almost $2500 in the Manley rods, but they are mint. Could have bought Carrillos for that price.

I realize this is not a finished block, but with as accurate as described machining, shouldnt the exhaust pushrod clearance holes intersect the bore/ deck in the same location on every cylinder?

That is correct for a hemi with big pushrods. The sleeves are notched as well, then you often have to grind more.also the hemu has 2 cylinders one way and 2 the other completely normal using the standard placement.

I think what you are seeing is it is very thin right there and I believe the one might have a little piece broke off. Not really a big deal because like said before a lot more material will be removed in that area before all is said and done.

1 and 5 are in one location and 3 and 7 in another. Reversed on the other side. Correct for a standard block. Should be this way.

See I leaned something today.

dthemi. Are you talking about a Gen 2 hemi block or one of your Pro Stock blocks? Are Gen 2 426 blocks not symmetrical? Intake and exhaust is. Or am I missing what you are saying?

426 blocks are not symetrical.the bore space is but the ports are not which is why you see the pushrod clearance differences cylinder to cylinder. 1 and 5 are the same 3 and 7 are the same as each other, but different from 1 and 5. Normal, but you change that often in a race motor to symetrical port location. Better to start without lifter bores in the block if you're going down that road too

DT You will have to show me next time I'm up at your shop. I still don't know what you are talking about. I am about to get in a car with a couple of the Barnetts and head for PRI. Maybe they can draw me a picture or something. If the valves and rockers are evenly spaced, which I think they are, how can the pushrods be different unless the lobe spacing is different? Barnett gets (or got) some of his his blocks without the lifter bores cut. Never asked about it. I just swept the floors and kept quiet. Later.

Sure thing stew, WB will explain it for sure. The ports on a factory 426 are not symmetrical. They're shifted over on 2 cylinders on each side. Ill see if i have a picture in my photobucket looking into the ports and you'll see the pushrod tubes are more into 2 cylinders. So same up and down, offset left and right.

This is the only pic i have that shows at least the difference in the exhaust pushrod holes in the head. Look at it close and you'll see 1st cylinder hole is same as 3rd. 2nd and 4th are same. These are stage v big valve head in factory layout.

You can see the offset also in the inner valley stud holes

DT WB not with us but Frank made me feel stupid enough when I asked him about it. " How can you have messed with Hemis since 1970 and not notice this?" "Haven't we taught you anything?" I would have walked away but we were half way between Atl and Indy and Frank was driving. Frank had fun with this. Back home now and about to go to the shop and I am going to take a CLOSE look at the heads and see what I have missed all these years. Maybe I knew this once and just forgot.

Hey Stew, I'd have ribbed them about all those perfect race cars collecting dust lol.

Also tell them a chassis man of your abilities, needen't be bothered with such trivialities as port spacing. Tell Frank to just shut up, and give you a motor, and you'll take it from there!

DT Frank would agree about the cars sitting. He has been trying to get one for us to play with. We are still working on that.
Did some measuring on 2 heads yesterday. One was an old Keith Black P4120711 head sold thru Mopar and the other is an Indy SR. Ports, rockers and lower 4 head bolts are equal spaced. Only things I found off were the push rod holes and the stud that screws into the bottom of the intake port. As you stated they are 1 and 5 same and 3 and 7 matched. I understand why the push rod holes are off due to the offset on cam lobes due to the cam bearing journals being between I guess. But can't see any reason why the studs odd spaced unless it is because the boss on the block for the stud to go thru had to be relocated for push rod clearance but the are only moved sideways about .020. wouldn't think that would take relocating the stud.
Side note. The P4120711 heads were some a buddy from KC saw on Craigslist a while back in ATL and called to get me to look at them and buy them if they looked good. Spares for a nostalgia FC he is building. I bought them and will deliver them on my next trip out west. They were metal stamped JENTZEN'S and BARNETT RACE CARS. Had to be pre 1986 I think because I think that is when Barnett left Norcross for downtown. Don't know where Buddy Jentzen went after that. Also had 1282 stamped which could be Dec 1982.
Frank asked how fast you have gone with the old 10.5 car and the PS car. I showed him the video of the flying boxcar and he loved it. Said "Now thats a ride".

I used to marvel at buddy's porting work on cast iron. He made the ports look like a cnc polisher did them.

Porting off the guide centers is a better way to go. Making them all the same.

I'm 4.78 with ye ole 10.5 car and have had a real ball playing with it. I'm adding a second kit to it this winter (or maybe a blown motor) so maybe some 60's.

I hurt the motor in my stratus testing stiff with wj, being in a rush, and not checking stuff between hits, so as soon as its back together ill go south and beat on it some more. Teens, or maybe an 0 anything is the goal .

I'm glad Frank digs the box car lol. That car has been nothing but fun. I treat it like a rolling dyno lol. I never keep the same motor in it for long. When the sun returns I'm adding a few more pounds of boost, and going for a 4.999999.

I really hope you get those guys lit up again to go racing, testing, whatever. You guys are going to love the new brainerd, and the new crossville

Any Idea what a new set of sleeves cost for a KB RB ?
I bought one a couple years back but can't remember how much it was .

$1800ish IIRC, but don't quote me but I seem to recall close to there for the block we hurt last year.

We are giving up on our mazak's at work and going with 150 horse spindle Makino's, 1200 ipm and 30K rpm. Should be coming in from Japan next month...those things are going to be loud. $34K to change a ball screw? Seems kinda high. Tim

https://www.racingjunk.com/Short-Bl...CK.html?category_id=5704&np_offset=1




if anyone is interested .

That wannabe seller is nowhere near as delirious as the crack smoking inbred who posted this ad....

https://www.racingjunk.com/Big-block-complete/183937725/440-SIAMESE-MEGA-BLOCK-ENGINE.html#11

Wow. I do love big blocks, but if things are going in that direction the Gen III hemi looks better and better.