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Depends on who you ask. I say yes.

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I do not have examples of everything you asked for but here's a start. Original paint Shaker bubble

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Here's another one. Both were stored above my garage out of direct sunlight all these years

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Here's another one. Both were stored above my garage out of direct sunlight all these years

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Thx for posting Terry, it saves me the time to take the picture of my 70 survivor that hasn't seen the light of day since 72. And yes, my original bubble matches the grille.

Who was it that said they didn't match?

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May 70 Challenger original paint, faded and dusty.
My opinion, alot closer to dark argent than light.
Mike

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Same shaker scoop against the grill.
I'll let you form your own opinion..... I have mine...
After a brief time of the very first argent shaker scoops being hand painted at Fram, I am told they were sent 40 miles up the road for painting to N.A.P.,the same facility that manufactured and painted 70 Barracuda grills.

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Here's another one. Both were stored above my garage out of direct sunlight all these years

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Thx for posting Terry, it saves me the time to take the picture of my 70 survivor that hasn't seen the light of day since 72. And yes, my original bubble matches the grille.

Who was it that said they didn't match?

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actually mike, it would be to the interest of this debate if you would take a FULL picture of yours as I seem to remember from the last debate on this, everyone thought it looked as though it was light.

guess i cant dispute whats in the pictures presented so far, but until i see one in person and compare to original formulas, pigmnets and colors i am still of the Lt argent/ dk/med grille believers.

also, are those early or late cars shown?

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It's just not that important to me to try to convince you of anything when your mind is made up. With absolute facts, you still want to debate and I�m not going there this time.

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rattle can textured argent paints aren�t remotely close to factory paint. It works fine for the average guy restoring their car with acceptable results, however, never should it be used for any OE type work.

OK, I'm the "average guy", but strive for OE type work. Nobody out there in the "Mopar family" is wiling to share their argent with "little brother". I've got a good grill and bubble....all I need is the paint, and I'm capable of loading up my gun and giving the pieces a fresh coat of argent....if I could get it! I HATE rattle cans for anything (other than WD40!). I fill up the gun anytime anything needs paint, but when it comes to argent the "average guy" doesn't have a choice. Hey Mike, when's BE&A going to start offering their argent by the quart?

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OK, I think I'll paint my '70 bubble black. That way EVERYBODY knows it's the wrong color! I really didn't mean for this to get into an argument, and apologize for that. I think my next post will be "What is the right wingnut for an A12?". So at this point I'm calling it a tie and saying either would be deemed correct. What do the OE Gold cars have? Any judges want to toss their opinion into the ring?

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It's just not that important to me to try to convince you of anything when your mind is made up. With absolute facts, you still want to debate and I�m not going there this time.

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actually mike its not about convincing me of changing my mind, it is for the side by side comparison to continue to document the differences/similarites and everyones knowledge!

Although, some how, when i left off with this last night i kinda knew how you would respond....

so let me print a quote from an email i rec'd privately regarding your shaker after you posted a sliver of it in the last debate on this:

"You are right about the Mike Ross scoop.... definately light"...

so i am not the only one thinking that...

However, since you think you and your car are above it, I have no problem not discussing it with you, and we'll let it go at that, as like you with me, its just not that important to me that you know all you can know (or think you do), about the formulas and how they were sprayed. (yes that is a dig).


BTW, this is the first time in 20 plus years, that i have ever seen any pictures side by side of original parts from those who have said the scoops were the same color as the grilles.

So until now, yes my mind was made up. although i have yet to see any pieces in person that used the same pigments, or be able to dissect the pigments (something i doubt you have done) to determine the origin of their shade its just another hazy piece of the puzzle to me.

Regards

Mike

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black would also be correct (my understanding is that after may 1970 they came this way also)

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Here's another one. Both were stored above my garage out of direct sunlight all these years

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something that may or or may not be known? is this stuff was not a chrysler specifc paint, it was the beginng of the OE paint mfg's custom radiance color line, and there is supposed to be a chip chart of all the different colors that were available, but i have yet to find or see that..

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Here's another one. Both were stored above my garage out of direct sunlight all these years

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I realy hate to post,but I have a QUESTION
For one the picture Macannix posted looks 99% of what the 71 challenger grille I had till 2004 Car also was a 318 car with wide hood trim.
Heres the Queston
You said

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something that may or or may not be known? is this stuff was not a chrysler specifc paint, it was the beginng of the OE paint mfg's custom radiance color line, and there is supposed to be a chip chart of all the different colors that were available, but i have yet to find or see that..

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When you said OE paint mfg's custom radiance color line Are you talking about the PPG Radiance Candy paint base paint that went on before the top coat and clear? That was used in the early-middle 80's before the Radiance 2 came out?
A friend of mine is a pack rat but moved 3 months ago and had to toss stuff out. But He may still have that color chip book. If that is what you are saying I will ask him if he still has it

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Don�t forget that the flake is a true metal material that also oxidized, at rate specific to it�s environmental surroundings.

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When dealing with procedures of the past, it helps to understand the technology used during a specified era and the changes that result over time. We discuss the condition and appearance of these NOS and original items today but they do not have the same fundamental features that they possessed some 40 years ago. Rather than debate the characteristics of these components, it is important to understand how these parts started out and the changes that may have taken place over time.

The grill and the shaker bubble were painted with the same engineered paint color. The plants would have ordered the paint in bulk but variations would have occurred due to slight changes between the batches. Next you must consider the bonding surfaces and material differences that existed between the two manufactured parts. The grill had the textured paint sprayed directly over the plastic composite, molded surface. The plastic would have exhibited aging color changes, that over time, would have altered the hue of silver paint. The same logic for the shaker scoop. It was a fiberglass composite material BUT used red oxide primer , on most of the bubbles, as a basecoat BEFORE the metallic silver was applied. The darker red base coat could have altered the color cast of the argent silver paint. If some of the shaker bubbles had a greater amount of silver paint material applied, a difference would have resulted in the depth or density of the silver coating. You have two totally different surface materials, aging in a manner that could impact the appearance of the colors as time progressed. Don�t forget that the flake is a true metal material that also oxidized, at rate specific to it�s environmental surroundings. An original grill will be exposed to conditions different than those of the shaker bubble. The engine heat alone will bake and alter the silver paint finish of a bubble.

If you understand the specifics that affect the overall appearance of paint, it is easy to explain how these subtle color changes will occur.

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colors match?

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so why not just post pics of your grille and bezels side by side to you shaker for everyone to see, not just me.

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so why not just post pics of your grille and bezels side by side to you shaker for everyone to see, not just me.

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hereis a pic of mike ross' survivor 70 cuda, very very original car, that hadnt any paint work (i took these pics while there last year)

whether these pics show it or not (a flash was used)
the DARK argent grille + shaker bubble were a dead on match

mikes car is a great example to use as it was always garage kept + wasnt subject to the elements, so there was any, or much of any, fading or wear

hope mike doesnt mind me posting pics of his car,
which by the way is a great great car + even better for reference and learning from.

its what i refer to as an answer machine!

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here are two cans of NOS Paint, whats the differences

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here are two cans of NOS Paint, whats the differences

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Even �NOS Paint� will NOT have the same physical or visual properties that it did when it was newly formulated. Unless someone can go back in time to substantiate the absolutes that you request, it is a moot point. The best anyone can do is search for the facts and have the sense to recognize them as they come across them. Instead, we have the reoccurring problem of people who re write history in an attempt to simplify the process or accommodate their pointed agenda.

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Mike the question is for everyone, and is: what the are the differences?

yet you reply with an arguement rather than an answer to a direct question...


so once agin mike you prove that you are not wnating to know all you can (or think you know about this).

so now you are saying, that a can of paint that has never been opened or seen the light of day, and has not been contaminated by atmosphere or humans adding something or not, has changed more or so much that it can no longer be used as documentation, but that a car and paint that has been sprayed and even ever so slightly been exposed to elements that it has not changed but can be used as reference...

you are completly missing the point i am making about the paints and the methods used to verify what shade is what after it is sprayed and aged, but then that seems to be how you in all our discussions. edit: also what is my pointed agenda?

i wish the people had the coconuts to stand up to you in piblic the way they have in emails to me and or private discusions. hint hint!

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funny you being one of the people that preach this from your poduim as gospel

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I didn't understand your comment/question Mike. ALL of the paints used on my vehicles were custom mixed by Steve Been and myself. NONE were purchased or used from a secondary source.

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did you have the original untouched scoop to reference?

and do you have pics of the original?

if no to the above, what did you use as a reference?

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The original shaker to my Cuda was gone before I ever took possession of the car. Steve had four original examples that we referenced and I provided the original paint codes that were used by Chrysler. Using those variables for references, we were able to come up with a formula that was probably representative of the original mix. Keep in mind that even our "patterned" examples had slight variations within their appearance.
One last point....you keep asking for Mike Ross to post his original examples. Didn't you see the pictures posted by Tony D. of Mike's original Six Pack vehicle? Is it really necessary that he be the person posting the photos or can we just accept the fact that the same material/proof was provided by Tony D. instead? I don't think the outcome would be any different if Mike R. were to reiterate the point by simply re-posting those same photos.

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did you have the original untouched scoop to reference?

and do you have pics of the original?

if no to the above, what did you use as a reference?

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The original shaker to my Cuda was gone before I ever took possession of the car. Steve had four original examples that we referenced and I provided the original paint codes that were used by Chrysler. Using those variables for references, we were able to come up with a formula that was probably representative of the original mix. Keep in mind that even our "patterned" examples had a slight variations within their appearance.
One last point....you keep asking for Mike Ross to post his original examples. Didn't you see the pictures posted by Tony D. of Mike's original Six Pack vehicle? Is it really necessary that he be the person posting the photos or can we just accept the fact that the same material/proof was provided by Tony D. instead? I don't think the outcome would be any different if Mike R. were to reiterate the point by simply re-posting those same photos.

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I was under the impression mike ross' 70 car we have been referencing is a hemi car, and thats the one i thought he refernced in the last debate on this, and thats the one i am refering to.

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I was under the impression mike ross' 70 car we have been referencing is a hemi car, and thats the one i thought he refernced in the last debate on this, and thats the one i am refering to.

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Be it a Hemi, 440 Six Pack or 340 Shaker car, there was no difference with the silver paint whatsoever. Also keep in mind that the reflective properties of this particular paint were very misleading and deceptive. In direct light, the shaker bubble had a totally different look than the grill. The grill is relatively enclosed and the large metallic flakes reflect and "absorb" the surrounding shadows that caused a darker appearance. The bubble had no canopy or enclosure surrounding it so the light reflected very brightly off of it�s surface. That made for a lighter appearance in comparison to the grill.

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also, the only pictures presented in this post that look even remotely close to being the same (dead on) are the ones Mike Volz of Rocket Resto posted and they are uncleaned dirty 30 year old parts, if they are the same so be it!


*....but they sure dont look anything like those posted of ross's bubble..

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also, the only pictures presented in this post that look even remotely close to being the same (dead on) are the ones Mike Volz of Rocket Resto posted and they are uncleaned dirty 30 year old parts, if they are the same so be it!


*....but they sure dont look anything like those posted of ross's bubble..

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The picture posted by Mike Volz doesn�t even show a comparison between the grill and the shaker bubble paint. Are you now implying that the picture of Mike Ross' Cuda IS NOT an original factory example?* I thought Tony Dagostino posted the picture to simply substantiate that the grill and bubble were painted with the same paint formula! What about the 3 comparison photos posted by Terry McCann? Wasn�t that the original question/point of this entire thread?
Have we suddenly switched topics?

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i am sorry I cant convey that any more clearly...

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Us too I think. This thread made my head hurt.

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Can any of the posters tell me who painted the Bubbles for Chrysler? Was it Fram doing it in house? Was it Summerville Ind. that I believe made the bubbles? Did either of these two, Fram or Summerville mix the paint or did they have others mix small batches using a Chrysler Formula for their use on the bubbles.

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the only pictures presented in this post that look even remotely close to being the same (dead on) are the ones Mike Volz of Rocket Resto posted ......but they sure dont look anything like those posted of ross's bubble..

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so regardless of what Mike R says and what Tony says, based on the picture Tony shows comparing the shaker to the grille vs the opriginal picture Mike ross showed in the other post, vs what mike volz has posted i am questioning the two colors on being the same on the blue car and using all my references to show the night and day diff btween the two pigments....the original question by me was: can anyone post just one pic of a PRODUCTION LINE Installed shaker and grille that matched...

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I agree with your last post HEMICUDA.One Chrysler Formula, but maybe mixed by different sources when applied to the Bubble or Grille,etc. so there would be a possibility of having a shade different on each. If all Mixing was done in one batch and shipped to all persons applying it then there would be little difference if any. If all followed the formula mix to the exact specs.then the color would be an exact match.But to get the formula mixed the same in August of 1969 as to July of 1970 it would have to mixed via the forumla to an exact specs. and be tested in a Lab. and tweaked to match the Chrysler Formula.

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I agree totally, and to say paint mixed by Mr. Joe counter guy at a paint store in 1989 as being absolute would be a foolish statement.

Don't forget, painting over contrasting colors with the same paint changes the shade also.

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so regardless of what Mike R says and what Tony says, based on the picture Tony shows comparing the shaker to the grille vs the opriginal picture Mike ross showed in the other post, vs what mike volz has posted i am questioning the two colors on being the same on the blue car and using all my references to show the night and day diff btween the two pigments.

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The real question asked by most is where and when can they buy some piant to shoot it them self.
After all the fighting is over and everyone walks away thinking ther are right, Not one vender sells what they think is right!
Point is if they realy think that what they have is right. They should have no problem selling it not talking about the limited source of OEM stock still left.
If there is a A,B,C option let the public make up their own minds.
For years most of the guys were happy to get the ppg laqure organsol that was not right just to have something to use vs nothing.
So I assume something very close would leave us tickled pink

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The real question asked by most is where and when can they buy some piant to shoot it them self.
After all the fighting is over and everyone walks away thinking ther are right, Not one vender sells what they think is right!
Point is if they realy think that what they have is right. They should have no problem selling it not talking about the limited source of OEM stock still left.
If there is a A,B,C option let the public make up their own minds.
For years most of the guys were happy to get the ppg laqure organsol that was not right just to have something to use vs nothing.
So I assume something very close would leave us tickled pink

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i am just going to sit back and watch from the sidelines and LMAO at misinformation...

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