Stage V or MP Hemi head?
#2547736
09/08/18 10:53 PM
09/08/18 10:53 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 984 Tennessee
Hemi ragtop
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 984
Tennessee
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I have posted here before on my oil consumption problem. To reiterate, It is a STREET driven 540 ci HEMI. 4.350 bore, 4.5 stroke. The short block was machined at Diamond back in the day, I doubt seriously that there is an issue with the bore/rings (Speed Pro file fit). There is ZERO blow by, yet the intake valves are carboned up, and you can see oil on the stems with a bore scope. I feel certain that it is a valve guide/seal issue. Last weekend, 126 miles through the mountains, 1.5 qt. of oil! So, I am pulling the MP heads. The question for those of you in the know, is, how much would I gain by buying a set of Stage V heads new? What valve guide material should I order? What seals should I order? and how much power would be gained with a Stage V street/pocket port, vs. just rebuilding the MP heads? 10.78 comp. 195-200 psi cranking compression. .248/.254 @ .050 with .585 lift solid roller. TTI headers (small tube) and 3" TTI exhaust with 19"x 3" Dno Max Ultra Flo mufflers. Also, do the Stage V REQUIRE porting to even use them? Thanks for your experience and validated responses. Oh, here is the tailpipe after a local cruise on the interstate.
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Re: Stage V or MP Hemi head?
[Re: Hemi ragtop]
#2547755
09/08/18 11:41 PM
09/08/18 11:41 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,069 Michigan
A727Tflite
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,069
Michigan
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Very common to have the intake gaskets allow oil to be sucked into the intake.
I would check the bolt torques on the intake bolts/studs first. If loose snug them up and see how things go.
If it doesn’t help carefully pull the intake and check the gaskets. If oil soaked and the intake ports are wet I think the gaskets are your problem.
Take the end gaskets and side gaskets off and lay the manifold back on and see if the head and manifold faces touch and are parallel.
Correct if not. Sometimes a slightly thicker gasket will help. I have also seen a few rotted intake manifolds (above the oil shield) that allow oil to be sucked in to the plenum.
Last edited by Transman; 09/08/18 11:43 PM.
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Re: Stage V or MP Hemi head?
[Re: Hemi ragtop]
#2547793
09/09/18 01:25 AM
09/09/18 01:25 AM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 246 Cranberry Twp PA (North of Pit...
rumblefish72
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 246
Cranberry Twp PA (North of Pit...
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First - I'd check to make sure the intake port isn't sucking oil from the valley due to bad intake gasket seal at the bottom of the port. I'd take the intake manifold off carefully and look to see if there is oil on the port floor. I'd then do the intake manifold angle match check following the Hughes procedure: http://www.hughesengines.com/Upload/TechArticles/INTAKE_MANIFOLD_SEALINGJULY2015.pdf 1.5 quarts of oil in 126 miles seems to me like a lot to suck past the valve seals. I don't think that I'd be starting over with a new head but if that's your preference, I'd be looking at the Eddy Head. I believe that you can run the Stage V SR head OTB but I'd send them to one of the head specialists that frequently post on this forum for checkout before I would bolt them on. I have CNC ported Stage V heads from MCH back when Jeff was running the show. They're great but I bought them before the Eddy Hemi Head came out. OTB, the Eddy head flows just about as much as my $CNC$ ported heads. And the Eddy's OTB are good in the street cam range (lift < .700). CNC Stage V #'s below are from the flowsheet I received with the heads. Eddy #'s are from https://www.hotrod.com/articles/port-edelbrocks-hemi-head-38-cfm/_______-------- Intake ----------_________-------- Exhaust ------- _______MyCNC___Eddy___Eddy________MyCNC____Eddy____Eddy Lift___StageV____OTB____Port+VJ______StageV____OTB____Port+VJ ______2.25"____2.32"____2.32"__________1.94"___1.94"____1.94" .100____79_____No#_____No#___________67_____No#_____No# .200___161_____166_____170*__________140_____134_____140 .300__*250_____238_____244___________184____*192_____211* .400___323_____322_____327___________213____*232_____248* .500___373____*386_____393*__________245____*257_____268* .600___406____*410_____420*__________267_____269_____279* .700___428_____419_____445*__________280_____272_____283 .800___440_____421_____459*__________281_____274_____288* Sorry about all the "_"s but that's the only way I could force the column's to line up. Asterisks near interesting numbers. StageV CFM were on a 4.320" bore. I didn't see a bore size mentioned for the Eddy flow testing. All testing was at 28". I'm at 604" with 4.500" bore and 4.75" stroke and you state that you are 540" with 4.350" and 4.5" stroke. 4.5" bore unshrouds the valve better. My motor has a 273/286 @050 .635" lift SR cam and made 888 HP at 6300 RPM with 824 Ft-Lb at 5000. I'm running dual FAST EZ-EFI throttle bodies on a Stage V Manifold. Not sure where the torque peak was since the dyno only recorded 5000-6700. Picture is quick way to measure intake port size Just my $0.02 ....
Can your Hemi head do this?
1972 Pro-Street 'Cuda, 500" Eagle stoker B Block, Eddy RPM heads, Victor Manifold, 850 Mighty Demon, Hemi 4 Speed, Dana 60 w/4.88 gears - Built by Hansen Racing Middlesex - NJ
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Re: Stage V or MP Hemi head?
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2547875
09/09/18 12:03 PM
09/09/18 12:03 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 984 Tennessee
Hemi ragtop
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 984
Tennessee
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Very common to have the intake gaskets allow oil to be sucked into the intake.
I would check the bolt torques on the intake bolts/studs first. If loose snug them up and see how things go.
If it doesn’t help carefully pull the intake and check the gaskets. If oil soaked and the intake ports are wet I think the gaskets are your problem.
Take the end gaskets and side gaskets off and lay the manifold back on and see if the head and manifold faces touch and are parallel.
Correct if not. Sometimes a slightly thicker gasket will help. I have also seen a few rotted intake manifolds (above the oil shield) that allow oil to be sucked in to the plenum.
Yes this was a problem initially, I now have the intake sealed up, verified with a bore scope.
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Re: Stage V or MP Hemi head?
[Re: Hemi ragtop]
#2548111
09/09/18 09:26 PM
09/09/18 09:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,632 Stuttgart, Arkansas
rickseeman
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,632
Stuttgart, Arkansas
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I love Stage V heads but Stage V's don't come ready to bolt on. They are bare castings. There is no valve job. I wouldn't call the ports complete. A valve won't go in the guides. You will need valves, springs, retainers, keepers, valve seals and spring cups. And for labor you will need porting, guides honed and a valve job. No matter where you go this will cost money. Stage Vs are beautiful. I have one in my lap to refresh my memory as I write this. These must be made from Chryslers old patterns.
PS. For those of you out there that have a KB block, Stage V will drill them to match the KB steam holes if you ask them to.
2011 Drag Pak Challenger
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Re: Stage V or MP Hemi head?
[Re: Hemi ragtop]
#2548242
09/10/18 02:34 AM
09/10/18 02:34 AM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 620 Deep DEEP SOUTH
LAD 524
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 620
Deep DEEP SOUTH
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Interesting comments - id try to find the source of the oil personally then make a call.
Not to hijack but I am in the middle of an intake swap and after a few hundred miles on a fresh 572, I have the same carbon crap on the back of the intake valves. 278/280 @.050, 112 LSA.
Car is running awesome, AFRs are great, the guides are fresh/seals are new and the gaskets are clean. I'm running an Indy valley tray which is sealed up nice. No oil usage and plugs are super nice, yet still have oil residue in the Barton single 4 intake and in the ports/back of the valve.
Reversion ?
Got me stumped.....
Last edited by LAD 524; 09/10/18 02:44 AM.
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Re: Stage V or MP Hemi head?
[Re: rickseeman]
#2548256
09/10/18 07:57 AM
09/10/18 07:57 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 984 Tennessee
Hemi ragtop
OP
super stock
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OP
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I love Stage V heads but Stage V's don't come ready to bolt on. They are bare castings. There is no valve job. I wouldn't call the ports complete. A valve won't go in the guides. You will need valves, springs, retainers, keepers, valve seals and spring cups. And for labor you will need porting, guides honed and a valve job. No matter where you go this will cost money. Stage Vs are beautiful. I have one in my lap to refresh my memory as I write this. These must be made from Chryslers old patterns.
PS. For those of you out there that have a KB block, Stage V will drill them to match the KB steam holes if you ask them to. Now THAT is what I was needing to know, THANK you! I've been chasing this ever since I put it together. Of course I will carefully check the intake seal when it comes apart. But the unfinished head is a deal breaker for me.
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Re: Stage V or MP Hemi head?
[Re: AndyF]
#2548257
09/10/18 08:00 AM
09/10/18 08:00 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 984 Tennessee
Hemi ragtop
OP
super stock
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OP
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 984
Tennessee
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You should just pick up the phone and talk to Tim at FHO. He can make what you need. Add the o-rings around the ports to seal up the intake side, get the correct guide clearance, all that stuff. Won't be cheap but it will work. I have talked to Tim, would love to have his heads, but $5000-6000 is not in the budjet. And Edelbrock clearly states that a 4.375 bore is minimum to use their head. Taking the great running engine apart to chamfer the bore is out of the question. So, it is MP head or nothing.
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Re: Stage V or MP Hemi head?
[Re: Hemi ragtop]
#2548293
09/10/18 11:05 AM
09/10/18 11:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,357 Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,357
Marion, South Carolina [><]
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Send your MP heads to a competent shop and have them thoroughly checked out. MCH did my heads 12 years ago...CNC porting, pushrod tubes, sized the guides, etc. Ran great, use no oil. Been refreshed a couple times since then and had liners installed in the original guides last time b/c they were sloppy as hell after beating on them for years. Been fine ever since.
No need to waste money on new heads when you just need to fix your current heads...if they truly are the problem.
Last edited by an8sec70cuda; 09/10/18 11:05 AM.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: Stage V or MP Hemi head?
[Re: Hemi ragtop]
#2548328
09/10/18 12:18 PM
09/10/18 12:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,632 Stuttgart, Arkansas
rickseeman
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,632
Stuttgart, Arkansas
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I feel certain that it is a valve guide/seal issue.
Ok then. If it was me I know what I would do. When you tear the heads down you will most likely have guide wear. This is normal. (I've never had a street hemi that didn't guzzle oil.) I would shop around for some intake valves that have a larger stem diameter (shouldn't be hard to find) and have the guides honed to fit. (If they replace the guides they would have to do this anyway.) Doing it this way won't cost you more than replacing the guides. My reason for doing this is I don't like removing the guides in aluminum heads. They are already in there, they are aligned with the valve seat and are made of good material. It shouldn't be difficult to find a competent shop to hone the guides and do a valve job. This whole gig shouldn't cost you an arm and a leg. (In the old days we had cast iron heads and you would just ream out the guides and press in bronze sleeves.) PS. I am incapable of putting an engine together without Stage V rockers. They are beautiful (I'm into pretty) and I feel the roller tips are easier on the guides.
2011 Drag Pak Challenger
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Re: Stage V or MP Hemi head?
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#2548555
09/10/18 10:41 PM
09/10/18 10:41 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 984 Tennessee
Hemi ragtop
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 984
Tennessee
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Send your MP heads to a competent shop and have them thoroughly checked out. MCH did my heads 12 years ago...CNC porting, pushrod tubes, sized the guides, etc. Ran great, use no oil. Been refreshed a couple times since then and had liners installed in the original guides last time b/c they were sloppy as hell after beating on them for years. Been fine ever since.
No need to waste money on new heads when you just need to fix your current heads...if they truly are the problem. Thanks, and that is exactly what I plan to do, as well as add extra sealant around the studs mounting the intake!
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Re: Stage V or MP Hemi head?
[Re: rickseeman]
#2548558
09/10/18 10:50 PM
09/10/18 10:50 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 984 Tennessee
Hemi ragtop
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 984
Tennessee
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I agree, not having to buy new heads, allows money for good rocker arms! So who do you buy Stage V rocker arms from? I feel certain that it is a valve guide/seal issue.
Ok then. If it was me I know what I would do. When you tear the heads down you will most likely have guide wear. This is normal. (I've never had a street hemi that didn't guzzle oil.) I would shop around for some intake valves that have a larger stem diameter (shouldn't be hard to find) and have the guides honed to fit. (If they replace the guides they would have to do this anyway.) Doing it this way won't cost you more than replacing the guides. My reason for doing this is I don't like removing the guides in aluminum heads. They are already in there, they are aligned with the valve seat and are made of good material. It shouldn't be difficult to find a competent shop to hone the guides and do a valve job. This whole gig shouldn't cost you an arm and a leg. (In the old days we had cast iron heads and you would just ream out the guides and press in bronze sleeves.) PS. I am incapable of putting an engine together without Stage V rockers. They are beautiful (I'm into pretty) and I feel the roller tips are easier on the guides.
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Re: Stage V or MP Hemi head?
[Re: Hemi ragtop]
#2548573
09/10/18 11:20 PM
09/10/18 11:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,632 Stuttgart, Arkansas
rickseeman
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,632
Stuttgart, Arkansas
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I buy them direct from her. Nearly impossible to get ahold of her. Just keep calling every day. Stage V Engineering 909-594-8383. And after you order them you will wait forever. I have honestly had stuff come in from her that I had totally forgotten I ordered it had been so long. That's why I have those heads and rockers on the shelf because if I need them I know they won't have them. By the way the price is the same as stock rockers. Nice.
2011 Drag Pak Challenger
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