Re: When is an "improved" Harmonic Balancer required?
[Re: gzig5]
#2517109
07/03/18 06:12 PM
07/03/18 06:12 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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I think an aftermarket dampener should be used always. They are inexpensive enough to use one every time.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: When is an "improved" Harmonic Balancer required?
[Re: gzig5]
#2517130
07/03/18 06:45 PM
07/03/18 06:45 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,551 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,551
Fulton County, PA
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Rulebook says anything quicker than 10.99. I would say anything spinning over 5k or so. Or if it's a dry rotted 50 year old OE piece. Common sense should guide the decision.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: When is an "improved" Harmonic Balancer required?
[Re: gzig5]
#2517384
07/04/18 11:51 AM
07/04/18 11:51 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
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The /6, like all L6 engines, has a torsional twist problem due to crank length (unlike V6, V8) and should use a quality damper. Please note that when the ring separates from the hub it's toast, as on all dampers. The SEMA damper standard (S.F.I. 18-1) does not rate a damper’s effectiveness, or certify that it works at all (let alone on a specific engine) - only that it fit the designated engine, and didn’t explode during the test. Their interest is limited to safety and qualify control, not specific engineering results.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: When is an "improved" Harmonic Balancer required?
[Re: gzig5]
#2517418
07/04/18 12:51 PM
07/04/18 12:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,587 Great Neck,LI,new york
hemi-itis
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,587
Great Neck,LI,new york
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IMO anytime someone is going through the expense of rebuild an engine should upgrade better than stock.Then the quality of the replacement is up for debate.
HEMI-ITIS has no cure. My condition is fully BLOWN!!
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Re: When is an "improved" Harmonic Balancer required?
[Re: hemi-itis]
#2517424
07/04/18 01:00 PM
07/04/18 01:00 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,173 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,173
PA.
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The aftermarket damper rule was put into effect because of high winding CHEVY dampers flying off and hitting people. The stock mopar damper is BETTER than a lot of the cheaper aftermarket dampers that are out there. My Son and I both spun Summit brand Dampers and they both went on the scrap pile. All my engines except one now have ATI dampers on them. Todd at Compitition Wedge recomended the Powerbond damper and I have on on my Sons engine he is using now. So far, so good.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: When is an "improved" Harmonic Balancer required?
[Re: gzig5]
#2517530
07/04/18 03:43 PM
07/04/18 03:43 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
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There are only a few RPM levels in which torsional forces are dangerous, largely based on the dimensions of the crankshaft. Power has nothing to do with it, except that it may push the RPM to a level beyond which the OEM damper doesn't work. Poster child: 289 Windsor low perf upgraded with 271 hp parts (especially cam and springs) but using the original (low RPM) damper: loosened bolts, damper shifted, crank breakage at front MB, etc. An OEM (bonded rubber) damper is almost always specific to not only a specific engine but specific stroke length and journal size. Aftermarket silicone, friction etc. can work on more frequency range and are more generic. Read more http://harmonicdampers.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=4&chapter=0
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: When is an "improved" Harmonic Balancer required?
[Re: gzig5]
#2517560
07/04/18 04:36 PM
07/04/18 04:36 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,551 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,551
Fulton County, PA
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I've seen the results of stock Chevy stuff coming apart in the old days. The amount of damage they could do was impressive. Buddy had one come apart in a first gen Duece, sever a brake line and about lose the whole car. Personally I wouldn't use an OE type piece on anything but a stock/resto type engine that I want to look original and uses original front accessories.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: When is an "improved" Harmonic Balancer required?
[Re: gzig5]
#2517636
07/04/18 07:18 PM
07/04/18 07:18 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,159 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,159
Bend,OR USA
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I've used a bunch of different balancers on both BB and SB Mopar V8 from cheap to all out race. I have a pair of used after market race SB balancer in my shop now, a ATI and a Fischer Racing fluid type, I'm hoping to use the ATI on a Hi Po pump gas 360 stroker motor converted to internal balanced No plans for the other one On your deal the Power Bond will probably meet all your needs
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 07/04/18 07:18 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: When is an "improved" Harmonic Balancer required?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2517696
07/04/18 10:02 PM
07/04/18 10:02 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,672 Wichita
GY3
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,672
Wichita
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I'd have to advise against using the 440Source one. Less than 4 years old and never seen over 6400 rpm.
'63 Dodge 330 11.19 @ 121 mph Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs. 10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
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Re: When is an "improved" Harmonic Balancer required?
[Re: GY3]
#2517747
07/04/18 11:25 PM
07/04/18 11:25 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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I'd have to advise against using the 440Source one. Less than 4 years old and never seen over 6400 rpm. What style of dampener is that? I can't tell if it's an elastomer or fluid style.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: When is an "improved" Harmonic Balancer required?
[Re: madscientist]
#2517783
07/05/18 01:37 AM
07/05/18 01:37 AM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,672 Wichita
GY3
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,672
Wichita
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I'd have to advise against using the 440Source one. Less than 4 years old and never seen over 6400 rpm. What style of dampener is that? I can't tell if it's an elastomer or fluid style. Elastomer/Rubber. Outer ripped away from inner for some reason. Crickets from 440Source.
'63 Dodge 330 11.19 @ 121 mph Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs. 10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
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Re: When is an "improved" Harmonic Balancer required?
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2517799
07/05/18 03:27 AM
07/05/18 03:27 AM
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Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 350 Mequon, WI
gzig5
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 350
Mequon, WI
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The aftermarket damper rule was put into effect because of high winding CHEVY dampers flying off and hitting people. The stock mopar damper is BETTER than a lot of the cheaper aftermarket dampers that are out there. My Son and I both spun Summit brand Dampers and they both went on the scrap pile. All my engines except one now have ATI dampers on them. Todd at Compitition Wedge recommended the Powerbond damper and I have on on my Sons engine he is using now. So far, so good. The Powerbond Race looks like a good option. Something doesn't jive with the application data on the Summit site though. I select the 340 motor but they say it only goes back to 72, which is externally balanced. I have a 70 340 motor so I need the internally balanced one. But, the description of the part says it is internal balance. Something is not right here? There is no mention of external weights to add or if the pics are correct, holes to mount them. If I search by 1970 340, Powerbond is not an option that comes up. Same thing on the Powerbond website. Only for 1972 or newer PB1004SS, but shows as neutral weighted.... https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pbb-pb1004ss/overview/
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Re: When is an "improved" Harmonic Balancer required?
[Re: polyspheric]
#2517810
07/05/18 06:44 AM
07/05/18 06:44 AM
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 234 Brisvegas, Australia
Alchemi
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 234
Brisvegas, Australia
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There are only a few RPM levels in which torsional forces are dangerous, largely based on the dimensions of the crankshaft. Power has nothing to do with it, except that it may push the RPM to a level beyond which the OEM damper doesn't work. Poster child: 289 Windsor low perf upgraded with 271 hp parts (especially cam and springs) but using the original (low RPM) damper: loosened bolts, damper shifted, crank breakage at front MB, etc. An OEM (bonded rubber) damper is almost always specific to not only a specific engine but specific stroke length and journal size. Aftermarket silicone, friction etc. can work on more frequency range and are more generic. Read more http://harmonicdampers.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=4&chapter=0 These are the only dampeners on the market with an alloy inner and a heavy steel outer, which to me makes them the best on paper (think a undercut crank counterweight) Anything else on the market has a steel hub and alloy outer or is all alloy... $467 is out of my budget a tad though http://harmonicdampers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_61&products_id=121
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Re: When is an "improved" Harmonic Balancer required?
[Re: gzig5]
#2517818
07/05/18 08:00 AM
07/05/18 08:00 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI
TRENDZ
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540
Milwaukee WI
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The Powerbond Race looks like a good option. Something doesn't jive with the application data on the Summit site though. I select the 340 motor but they say it only goes back to 72, which is externally balanced. I have a 70 340 motor so I need the internally balanced one. But, the description of the part says it is internal balance. Something is not right here? There is no mention of external weights to add or if the pics are correct, holes to mount them. If I search by 1970 340, Powerbond is not an option that comes up. Same thing on the Powerbond website. Only for 1972 or newer PB1004SS, but shows as neutral weighted.... https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pbb-pb1004ss/overview/[/quote] Could this be because of the symmetrical/ non symmetrical pulley bolt holes? Not sure what year they changed that.
"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
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