Synthetic for Break In?
#2512900
06/25/18 08:24 AM
06/25/18 08:24 AM
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Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 195 Coastal Maine
Mr onetwo
OP
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OP
member
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 195
Coastal Maine
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Like most NOOB's, I am terrified of the flat tappet/ring seating process!What is the reasoning behind not using synthetic oil for breaking in a flat tappet engine?I have seen opinions that state it is because of ring seating, but I have also read that moly rings seat immediately and it has nothing to do with oil.If you have read the oil blog of "540 Rat" https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/ all the "break in" oils are of very sub-standard protection and vary so much in formulation that it is apparent that there is no rhyme or reason to any of this.I almost think Mobil 1 5W30 is an ideal oil for this purpose because "5W30 Mobil 1, Advanced Full Synthetic, API SN, GM dexos 1 approved = 117,799 psi" is in the "Fantastic" category and it is affordable @$23 at Wallyworld.In contrast "30wt Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1, Break-In Oil, conventional = 56,020 psi" is in the "UNDESIRABLE wear protection" catagory!?All the break in oil are of dubious value protection-wise.I will not cheap out on this break in process....if I have to spend $10 a quart I will...but I don't see the logic in any of this?C'mon guys....fire away!
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Re: Synthetic for Break In?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2512973
06/25/18 12:35 PM
06/25/18 12:35 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
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master
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Washington
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That 540rat dude was exposed on speedtalk years ago as a fraud. His test methods are rediculous and he uses a gear oil test to test engine oil.
Ignore anything that guy says.
Buy a QUALITY mineral break in oil and use it. I just did my own engine about two years ago. SFT cam with 145 on the seat and 400 over the nose with double springs. I didn't go through any of the crap of pulling the inner springs. Everything went fine.
The biggest issue with ring seating is to NOT slop a bunch of oil on the rings when you assemble the engine. I wipe the bores clean with Marvels Mystery oil until the paper towels come out clean. Some guys use ATF. Some use WD-40 even. Doesn't matter. Just get the bores clean.
Once that is done, I use a small amount of a QUALITY assembly lube on the SKIRTS of the piston so the SKIRTS have a thin coating on them and put the Pistons in. That's all you need for lube.
Make sure you have the correct lube on the cam. Make sure the lifters rotate in the bore. Make sure the engine starts. Don't sit there and crank on it. Prefill the carb.
Set the TOTAL timing at 40-45* BTDC before starting the engine. Don't try to time the engine at TDC. Too little timing is worse than too much on start up.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Synthetic for Break In?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2513054
06/25/18 03:01 PM
06/25/18 03:01 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,210 New York
polyspheric
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New York
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That 540rat dude was exposed on speedtalk years ago as a fraud
X2 - very annoying person to exchange views with, little engineering knowledge.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Synthetic for Break In?
[Re: polyspheric]
#2513072
06/25/18 03:53 PM
06/25/18 03:53 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
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Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
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(slightly) off topic, there is a VG read on piston rings breakin on www.mototuneusa.com scroll down til you get to & click on "breakin secrets". the jist of it is to load the eng hard on breakin & that you get one shot to get excellent leakdown numbers as opposed to good ones. it is a motorcycle site but the principle would be the same & they state that. I am a believer in doing a final hone with a BRM flex (dingleberry) hone with file fit moly rings (for most apps) & following BRM instructions ex they want you to bore to size then use their hone with no 3 stone honing & I dont agree with that part. As said clean the eng/cyls THOROUGHLY. I would remove the inner springs tho, cam failures happen regularly (might be different reasons tho). As said, plenty of timing & you want everything dead on so it fires IMMEDIATELY. several helpers, one to set the timing, one to spot leaks, one to add trans fluid, YOU in the drivers seat to man the throttle (to goose it) & watch the gauges & shout orders! If a leak or issue shut it down right then & there, dont think about anything just do it & fix it & fire it back up.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Synthetic for Break In?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2513100
06/25/18 05:19 PM
06/25/18 05:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,668 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
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Mr. Helpful
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Fulton County, PA
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This debate will never end. I try to pay attention to what is used and recommended by top engine builders, across multiple disciplines, on any number of subjects. They can't agree on anything and they see the results everyday.
Even before I heard of 540rat - that would be today - I prefer Amsoil stuff based on what I see in the filter and the parts when it comes apart. I've done the break it in with dino oil deal, and synthetic from the beginning deal, and never really saw a difference. But then my stuff was never after every last bit of power and a little crude compared to what a high end builder would provide. I just wanted it to stay together.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Synthetic for Break In?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2513161
06/25/18 07:13 PM
06/25/18 07:13 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,717 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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Posts: 22,717
Bitopia
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"What is the reasoning behind not using synthetic oil for breaking in a flat tappet engine?" I didn't see this main question directly addressed? I am NOT an engine builder, but this my understanding, Syn oil is not favored for break in as its too slippery. The intent is to lap both the lifters and the cam lobes. Very high idle(2000 rpm?) is desired as it keeps everything oiled and oil cooled at the lapping surface. Additionally, the higher break in speed to me is somewhat analogous to driving on sand, slow and you dig in and get stuck (wipe a lifter), fast, you float across the top surface, lapping all the while, Syn oil and reg oils work to prevent that process.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Synthetic for Break In?
[Re: jcc]
#2513185
06/25/18 08:02 PM
06/25/18 08:02 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
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Washington
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"What is the reasoning behind not using synthetic oil for breaking in a flat tappet engine?" I didn't see this main question directly addressed? I am NOT an engine builder, but this my understanding, Syn oil is not favored for break in as its too slippery. The intent is to lap both the lifters and the cam lobes. Very high idle(2000 rpm?) is desired as it keeps everything oiled and oil cooled at the lapping surface. Additionally, the higher break in speed to me is somewhat analogous to driving on sand, slow and you dig in and get stuck (wipe a lifter), fast, you float across the top surface, lapping all the while, Syn oil and reg oils work to prevent that process. The reason not to use synthetic on break in is to get the rings seated. Today, in 2018 I think if the bores are finished correctly and the rings aren't slathered in oil the rings will already be seated. Regular engine oil has to have a bunch of additives you don't need for break in. That's why I don't use it. The cam is essentially lubed by dry film lubrication and not an it film so cam break in means nothing to synthetic oil.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Synthetic for Break In?
[Re: dvw]
#2513268
06/25/18 10:43 PM
06/25/18 10:43 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,556 Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Rittman Ohio
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Do you think OEMS that have engines that are required synthetic break them in with coonventional oil? Doug Good question because most all new cars I work on use 0-20 synthetic from the factory but they are all overhead cam engines with fairly light springs(never measured them) but they compress very easily. I work with guys that still dunk their pistons in motor oil during assembly and I have to laugh. The new engines I have rebuilt use a very thin low tension rings and all I use is a little spray of lube(like WD40)and they break in right away. So has anybody ever driven their car to break it in as opposed to just letting it run with a fan in front of it. I would think cycling the engine through the gears would seat the rings and cam quicker Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy 493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow 5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box Dana 60
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Re: Synthetic for Break In?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2513397
06/26/18 10:31 AM
06/26/18 10:31 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,385 Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
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I Live Here
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Marion, South Carolina [><]
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This isn't arguing, but trying to learn something...don't the OEMs use a machine to spin the shortblock briefly prior to full assembly? Guess the bearings get assembly lube and then they spin it to seat the rings prior to the heads going on? Or is this not the case at all?
All I've ever heard (like many others) is that synthetic is too slippery and won't let rings seat...even w/ proper wall finish, etc. I've never done it, always used conventional oil. I figure the "break in" oil is gonna get changed soon anyway and the synthetic is more expensive, so I see no reason to take a chance?
FWIW...I use assembly lube everywhere but the cylinder walls, which get a light coat of conventional motor oil. Rings get sprayed w/ WD-40. This has worked very well for me.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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