Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
EFI fan relay driver polarity change question? #2443919
01/31/18 07:31 AM
01/31/18 07:31 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar Offline OP
master
451Mopar  Offline OP
master

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
What I have:
FAST XFI 2.0 EFI controlling cooling fans. The EFI module provides a sink (negative) to ground output signal.
What I am working with:
Cooper Bussman Relay/Fuse module with five fused 35 Amp Relays and an additional 5 constant hot fuses.
The Problem:
The Relay/Fuse box is designed so the relays are triggered with a high/hot +12 volt signal, and the ground side is designed into the negative bus bar.
I think I could make the negative bus bar a positive bus bar and the relays will activate on the low side signal, but I also wanted to use the relays to drive the Low and High Beam head lights which would be high side triggered, so I need a way to invert the signal to the relay trigger?

I know of many way to do this in theory, like using another relay, or a transistor driver circuit, but is there a better / easier way?

Re: EFI fan relay driver polarity change question? [Re: 451Mopar] #2443925
01/31/18 08:23 AM
01/31/18 08:23 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,827
MI, usa
dvw Offline
master
dvw  Offline
master

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,827
MI, usa
Either split the buss bar or use a 2nd relay in line to change the signal to high drive from low drive.
Doug

Re: EFI fan relay driver polarity change question? [Re: 451Mopar] #2443927
01/31/18 08:35 AM
01/31/18 08:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540
Milwaukee WI
T
TRENDZ Offline
master
TRENDZ  Offline
master
T

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540
Milwaukee WI
Cut the bus bar. Divide it as you need. Solder a wire or stud to the cut off section, and power it from one of the fused side circuits.
There is a potential problem with doing this though. Some relays have an internally configured suppression diode. Since you will be firing the coil from a reversed polarity standpoint from which it was designed, the suppression diode wont do it’s job. (if it is so equipped)and will short circuit. Using a non suppressed relay will allow doing this.
The diode is there to prevent flyback voltage from making its way back to the control unit. You could easily add suppression diodes to the bar itself in the required polarity.
Google “suppression diode in relay” for more detail on why/ what/ how.


"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
Re: EFI fan relay driver polarity change question? [Re: TRENDZ] #2444029
01/31/18 01:35 PM
01/31/18 01:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,480
Minnesota
Hemi_Joel Offline
master
Hemi_Joel  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,480
Minnesota
Originally Posted By TRENDZ
. Some relays have an internally configured suppression diode. Since you will be firing the coil from a reversed polarity standpoint from which it was designed, the suppression diode wont do it’s job. (if it is so equipped)and will short circuit. Using a non suppressed relay will allow doing this.
The diode is there to prevent flyback voltage from making its way back to the control unit. You could easily add suppression diodes to the bar itself in the required polarity.
Google “suppression diode in relay” for more detail on why/ what/ how.


I found out about these things the hard way last year when wiring my coupe. After years of using relays that had no polarity preference, somehow I ended up with some of these diode relays. My fuel pumps didn't work because the polarity was backwards. Reverse polarity instantly burns up the relay. I burned up up about 3 relays before I figured it out. Beware of the diode relay!


[img]http://i.imgur.com/boeexFms.jpg[/img]
31 Plymouth Coupe, 392 Hemi, T56 magnum
RS23J71
RS27J77
RP23J71
RO23J71
WM21J8A
I don't regret the things I've done. I only regret the things I didn't do.
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something. ~ Plato"
Re: EFI fan relay driver polarity change question? [Re: 451Mopar] #2444044
01/31/18 02:20 PM
01/31/18 02:20 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 562
Ohio
L
lockjaw-express Offline
mopar
lockjaw-express  Offline
mopar
L

Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 562
Ohio
Many relays with built-in suppression, use a 2K ohm resistor due to use in reverse polarity situations...some not so.

Mark

Re: EFI fan relay driver polarity change question? [Re: TRENDZ] #2444046
01/31/18 02:21 PM
01/31/18 02:21 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar Offline OP
master
451Mopar  Offline OP
master

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
Originally Posted By TRENDZ
Cut the bus bar. Divide it as you need. Solder a wire or stud to the cut off section, and power it from one of the fused side circuits.
There is a potential problem with doing this though. Some relays have an internally configured suppression diode. Since you will be firing the coil from a reversed polarity standpoint from which it was designed, the suppression diode wont do it’s job. (if it is so equipped)and will short circuit. Using a non suppressed relay will allow doing this.
The diode is there to prevent flyback voltage from making its way back to the control unit. You could easily add suppression diodes to the bar itself in the required polarity.
Google “suppression diode in relay” for more detail on why/ what/ how.


The relays do not have the suppression diodes, so no issue there.
The Relays are PICKER PC785-1C-12S-R-X
http://www.pickercomponents.com/pdf/Relays/PC785.pdf

The relay bus is molded into the block and connects to pin 86 of the relays, and there is no easy way to cut the bus. This is an EATON #15305-2-6-4
https://www.mouser.com/catalog/specsheets/eaton_01242018_1530X-X-X-X-SALES_RevA.pdf

I got this pre-built, wired and populated with the relays and fuses from Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01FWILL20/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Link to the sellers description:
https://www.teamconcours.com/#!/Universal-Waterproof-Relay-Fuse-Distribution-Box-Cooper-Bussmann/p/65063101/category=13963121








Last edited by 451Mopar; 01/31/18 02:25 PM.
Re: EFI fan relay driver polarity change question? [Re: 451Mopar] #2444082
01/31/18 03:47 PM
01/31/18 03:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,002
Oregon
A
AndyF Offline
I Win
AndyF  Offline
I Win
A

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,002
Oregon
Yeah I've run into this issue too. FAST grounds their fuel pump and fan signal while Holley sends out 12v to turn things on.

On the dyno we have to flip flop the wiring on the fuel pump relay depending if we're running a FAST system or a Holley system.

I do think the FAST method is smart, but a lot of pre-built relay kits ground the relay to the busbar so the FAST method doesn't work with them.

Re: EFI fan relay driver polarity change question? [Re: 451Mopar] #2444089
01/31/18 03:56 PM
01/31/18 03:56 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,561
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
Still wishing...
Twostick  Offline
Still wishing...

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,561
Downtown Roebuck Ont
I think my antique Holley Commander has the option of programming the outputs to be either + or -. New and improved units don't have this option?

Kevin

Re: EFI fan relay driver polarity change question? [Re: 451Mopar] #2444100
01/31/18 04:22 PM
01/31/18 04:22 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar Offline OP
master
451Mopar  Offline OP
master

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
Now I am thinking of just running the relay bus to the high side through one of the extra fuses, that way the EFI box can control the relay low sides for fans and A/C clutch, and I'll just do the Headlights with regular relay setup.
I am looking at running two puller cooling fans and and additional pusher fan for the A/C condenser. So with the A/C clutch too, 4 of the 5 relays are being used. I guess I could also use the fifth relay to replace the horn relay? Just trying to clean up the engine compartment wiring.
I may use some of the fused constant power circuits for the radio head unit constant power and the amplifier power?
Not sure what else to use the extra constant power fuses for (under hood?)

Interior wiring and EFI changes still in the works.

Re: EFI fan relay driver polarity change question? [Re: 451Mopar] #2444123
01/31/18 05:11 PM
01/31/18 05:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,021
Tulsa OK
Bad340fish Offline
master
Bad340fish  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,021
Tulsa OK
I heard the newer Holley untis can switch polarity which would be a nice feature. My mega squirt triggers the ground for everything so got an oversized relay panels that was half ground and half positive trigger relays because I didn’t know exactly what I would need since I was redoing almost the whole car.


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
Re: EFI fan relay driver polarity change question? [Re: 451Mopar] #2444761
02/01/18 05:59 PM
02/01/18 05:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
3
383man Offline
Too Many Posts
383man  Offline
Too Many Posts
3

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
It don't surprise me as I know when Mopar started using TIPM modules (Totoally Indegrated Power Module) they started using high side drivers which as a dealer tech I had not seen that from the factory before on factory cars. They would just ground the relay coil all the time and then the high side drivers send 12 volts to the other side of the relay coil to turn on that circuit. They started doing this on a few circuits instead of controlling the ground which I thought was the easier way to control a circuit. Ron

Last edited by 383man; 02/01/18 06:00 PM.






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1