Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked?
[Re: DGS]
#2365529
09/04/17 11:52 PM
09/04/17 11:52 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399 Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
master
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master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
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Probably, the rocker arm geometry because there is not alot you can change easy. Not sure how many people use the lifter burnishing ball through the lifter bores? I think it is a good idea if running a flat tappet cam. Some more common stuff, is mostly valve train related. Not checking valve spring pressures and coil bind when changing cams. Not measuring for correct length pushrods. Not degreeing the cam. Not using sealer or loctite on bolts that need it. Not pre-fitting the intake manifold and trying to make it fit when it needs to be milled. Not checking bolts for correct length, either too short where only a few threads grab, or too long where the bolt bottoms out. This is normally the issue with changing to a HV oil pump on a big block, the aftermarket bolts will bottom out right as the pump starts to tighten down. Also, on the big block oil pump, making sure the "O" ring that goes around the housing shaft is installed and lubed. Missing the "O" ring or tearing it on install can allow the pump to suck air. When I freshed up the 500" stroker, I forgot the oil galley plug behind the cam gear. Good thing I tried to pre-oil the engine while it was still on the stand. Distractions are a real issue when putting an engine together. On my old 360, I was installing the pistons, and I got interrupted and had to do something for maybe 5-minutes. Went back and started installing the next piston, and I forgot the rotate the crank first, and ended up nicking a crank journal with the rod bolt.
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Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2365548
09/05/17 12:20 AM
09/05/17 12:20 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675 Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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My approach is.......assume none of it is right, or that any of it fits.
Don't be surprised if everything needs to be tweaked/fixed/massaged/adjusted.
This. And AndyF.'s comment on writing everything down as you're making sure everything is right.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked?
[Re: dvw]
#2365624
09/05/17 03:35 AM
09/05/17 03:35 AM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 647 Graz, Austria
DGS
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 647
Graz, Austria
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Great tips! Keep 'em coming! Engine is a 440 based stroker (4.25) I've always built all my own stuff. Nothing is perfect. Knowing what is good enough and what isn't is crucial. Patience, if its wrong now, fix it. Once its as clean as you can get it there needs to be no interruption during the assembly stages. Doug What's the reason for the no interruption during assembly? I intend to do it in stages in order to stay concentrated..
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Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked?
[Re: DGS]
#2365631
09/05/17 04:16 AM
09/05/17 04:16 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272 Northern Calyfornua
Sxrxrnr
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
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I do not claim to be an engine builder of any kind but one thing that I avoid if at all possible is to rely upon sealers of any kind,,,particularly silicone to prevent leaks.
Clean up and tear downs the next time around can dramatically increase the time to do the job. I once spent 5 hours removing the oil pan from my BB engine, that after all bolts were removed and idler arm had been dropped because the guy who built the engine had chosen to slather the pan and windage screen with what appeared to be a whole tube of grey silicone.
Always wondered the wisdom of using same on your beautifully ported and port matched intake manifold, to have it squoshed out into ports when torqued down.
Ma Mopar I believe did not find it necessary.
Also no rope rear main seals. If you ever wish to remove a top half of one that does not want to come out,,,,well you know.
Make certain that new crank you just installed in your engine has a pilot hole if running a std transmission before installing engine.
Checking valve springs for coil bind already mentioned.
Check oil pickup distance from floor of oil pan.
Make certain that oil pan bolts are correct length, not stainless and are torqued to proper 15 pounds. If damages oil pan flange, either get a new oil pan supplier or use a girdle.
Make certain on number 5 rear main if using studs instead of bolts that oil pan itself does not get hung up on the tip of of one of the studs. Do not assume that Milidon and ARP have ever spoken to each other.
Do not assume that rear main retainer pan bolt holes will handle the same length bolts as do the remaining pan bolts that attach to the block itself. Chrysler has a service bulletin put out over 40 years ago on this.
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Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked?
[Re: Moparteacher]
#2365639
09/05/17 06:41 AM
09/05/17 06:41 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 990 Norwalk, Ohio
sycboi
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 990
Norwalk, Ohio
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Take up the gap between con-rods with a feeler gauge when torquing. Is this to keep the bearings/cap/rod square to the journal and arrive at a more precise torque value, and obviously less of a chance to distort the bearings?
SuperBeast
An enforcer for the Mopar Mafia!
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Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked?
[Re: DGS]
#2365640
09/05/17 07:13 AM
09/05/17 07:13 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,983 MI, usa
dvw
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,983
MI, usa
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Great tips! Keep 'em coming!
Engine is a 440 based stroker (4.25)
What's the reason for the no interruption during assembly? I intend to do it in stages in order to stay concentrated.. Stages is fine. You don't need to have somebody talking to you while torquing rod bolts, degreeing the cam, etc. Doug
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Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked?
[Re: DGS]
#2365648
09/05/17 08:49 AM
09/05/17 08:49 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,219 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,219
New York
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engine assembly is like brain surgery, it is absolutely impossible to keep it to clean
New Yorker ran an article decades ago "how do sponges, retractors, forceps wind up inside surgical patients?".
The answer: the king-of-all-medicine brain surgeon makes the same mistakes as the nurse just over from Manila, just slightly less frequently.
Make a pre-flight checkout list, and stick to it. Should have a check box in the left margin for "done", but put in the date too. Trust nothing.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked?
[Re: DGS]
#2365678
09/05/17 10:46 AM
09/05/17 10:46 AM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,905 Pattison Texas
CSK
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,905
Pattison Texas
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When cleaning the 40 year old block ,flush out the water passages with high water pressure.
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked?
[Re: RapidRobert]
#2365697
09/05/17 11:15 AM
09/05/17 11:15 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,547 Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,547
Syracuse,NY
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Mockup the eng complete from head to toe with gaskets. barely snug the heads so you can still use em. Have the gaskets dry. confirm that everything/all parts fit dead on. Have all your mods/tricks/additions/checks finished. then dissassemble & clean/oil & go back together. there is nothing worse than haveing to make chips on something in the middle of your final assy when something ain't right. I couldn't agree more. Mock up,mock up, and mock up. There almost always WILL be something to adjust. Then clean, clean and once it's clean, clean it again. Also, I think most people aren't honest to themselves about their own abilities. You have to know when to hire out, call in the cavalry etc. Many engines fail immediately, ( trust me, you don't read about them all on here,but they happen...lol) because pride gets in the way. As Dirty Harry said, " a man's got to know his limitations". That goes for all of us. Lastly, build the best bottom end you can afford. People are infatuated with heads, flow numbers, shiny carbs and camshafts. It's all useless if the bottom end scatters. Be patient, be wise, and build the best shortblock you can.The rest will come when ready.Its always better to be going rounds, than standing, leaning on the fence after E1.
RIP Monte Smith
Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.
WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
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Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked?
[Re: CompWedgeEngines]
#2365733
09/05/17 12:38 PM
09/05/17 12:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,807 Mopar Country, Mi
ccdave
The Ultimate
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The Ultimate
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,807
Mopar Country, Mi
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1. Removing ALL of the nasty casting flash from the inside and outside of the block.
2. radius all sharp edges on the block left from the machining process when the block was manufactured. That goes for aftermarket as well.
3. Clean, clean, clean, clean, clean, clean and clean. Then, clean everything 2 more times.
4. Mock up everything at lease once, sometimes twice or three times.
5. Pay very close attention to alignment of rear main seal. Customers HATE leakers.
6. No short cuts $$$$$$. You get what you pay for...
7. Do NOT be in a rush to complete assembly. You will forget something.
8. If you can't figure out why something does not fit or is not measuring out correctly, swallow your "I'm the KING Mopar Master Engine Builder and not one person on gods green earth knows more than me" pride and ask for help.
9. Have beer when job is done.
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Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked?
[Re: ccdave]
#2365740
09/05/17 12:49 PM
09/05/17 12:49 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,273 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,273
PA.
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Don't spend 1000.00 getting your heads ported and pull an intake manifold out of the box and bolt it on
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.38@138.67
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked?
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2365767
09/05/17 01:36 PM
09/05/17 01:36 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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Don't spend 1000.00 getting your heads ported and pull an intake manifold out of the box and bolt it on ^^^^^^^^YUP^^^^^^^ It happens all the time and I'd why there are too many underachieving engines out there.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked?
[Re: AndyF]
#2365812
09/05/17 02:58 PM
09/05/17 02:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,141 East Aurora (Buffalo) NY
RoadRunner
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,141
East Aurora (Buffalo) NY
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what are the most commonly overlooked steps/items when building an engine? Such as forgetting to take a measurement or forgetting to install an oil plug. Most common overlooked item is documentation. Very few people actually keep track of part numbers used, dimensions, clearances, etc. After a few months they don't remember what valve springs they used, what the bearing clearances are, what the ring gap was set at, which parts they used, etc. Then when they have a problem they have to start over. I have a 2" binder with everything I did to my engine when I built my Hemi. I included all my pieces of papers from when I was checking bearing clearances, stretching the rod bolts, etc. I also included all my back of the napkin work when cc'ing the heads, cylinders, etc. If I wrote something down, I threw the paper in the binder. I also cut off every tab and bar code off all the parts I used. From the rods to the temperature sender. I have the balancing sheets, machine shop sheets and all the receipts, I don't want to review that pile!
68 Road Runner (383/4speed, post car w/decor pkg) - Major Project 69 Road Runner w/472 Hemi & 4 speed. 70 Challenger R/T SE EF8 w/ V9J, U - A32 - Major Project 2023 Ford Mach 1
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Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked?
[Re: Dave Hall]
#2365900
09/05/17 04:52 PM
09/05/17 04:52 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,273 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,273
PA.
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If I've had a late night in the shop when I start out the next day I may repeat my last step. Ex (torquing heads, main studs, rods if I used a torque number). It only usually takes 10 minutes and is well worth the peace of mind. When setting valve I mark each rocker with a magic marker as I set them. After spending hours getting my rocker geometry set exactly how I want it I take an engraving tool and mark each rocker so it goes in that exact spot EVERY-TIME they are removed and replaced. This really helps at the track when rushing around.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.38@138.67
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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