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Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked? [Re: DGS] #2365529
09/04/17 11:52 PM
09/04/17 11:52 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar Offline
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Probably, the rocker arm geometry because there is not alot you can change easy. Not sure how many people use the lifter burnishing ball through the lifter bores? I think it is a good idea if running a flat tappet cam.
Some more common stuff, is mostly valve train related. Not checking valve spring pressures and coil bind when changing cams. Not measuring for correct length pushrods. Not degreeing the cam. Not using sealer or loctite on bolts that need it. Not pre-fitting the intake manifold and trying to make it fit when it needs to be milled. Not checking bolts for correct length, either too short where only a few threads grab, or too long where the bolt bottoms out. This is normally the issue with changing to a HV oil pump on a big block, the aftermarket bolts will bottom out right as the pump starts to tighten down. Also, on the big block oil pump, making sure the "O" ring that goes around the housing shaft is installed and lubed. Missing the "O" ring or tearing it on install can allow the pump to suck air.
When I freshed up the 500" stroker, I forgot the oil galley plug behind the cam gear. Good thing I tried to pre-oil the engine while it was still on the stand.
Distractions are a real issue when putting an engine together.
On my old 360, I was installing the pistons, and I got interrupted and had to do something for maybe 5-minutes. Went back and started installing the next piston, and I forgot the rotate the crank first, and ended up nicking a crank journal with the rod bolt.

Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked? [Re: fast68plymouth] #2365548
09/05/17 12:20 AM
09/05/17 12:20 AM
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Columbia, CT
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Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
My approach is.......assume none of it is right, or that any of it fits.

Don't be surprised if everything needs to be tweaked/fixed/massaged/adjusted.




This. And AndyF.'s comment on writing everything down as you're making sure everything is right.


Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked? [Re: dvw] #2365624
09/05/17 03:35 AM
09/05/17 03:35 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 636
Graz, Austria
DGS Offline OP
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Great tips! Keep 'em coming!

Engine is a 440 based stroker (4.25)


Originally Posted By dvw
I've always built all my own stuff. Nothing is perfect. Knowing what is good enough and what isn't is crucial. Patience, if its wrong now, fix it. Once its as clean as you can get it there needs to be no interruption during the assembly stages.
Doug


What's the reason for the no interruption during assembly? I intend to do it in stages in order to stay concentrated..

Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked? [Re: DGS] #2365630
09/05/17 03:51 AM
09/05/17 03:51 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,363
Cotati, CA
Dave Hall Offline
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Torque it and whack it!

Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked? [Re: DGS] #2365631
09/05/17 04:16 AM
09/05/17 04:16 AM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
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Sxrxrnr Offline
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Northern Calyfornua
I do not claim to be an engine builder of any kind but one thing that I avoid if at all possible is to rely upon sealers of any kind,,,particularly silicone to prevent leaks.

Clean up and tear downs the next time around can dramatically increase the time to do the job. I once spent 5 hours removing the oil pan from my BB engine, that after all bolts were removed and idler arm had been dropped because the guy who built the engine had chosen to slather the pan and windage screen with what appeared to be a whole tube of grey silicone.

Always wondered the wisdom of using same on your beautifully ported and port matched intake manifold, to have it squoshed out into ports when torqued down.

Ma Mopar I believe did not find it necessary.

Also no rope rear main seals. If you ever wish to remove a top half of one that does not want to come out,,,,well you know.

Make certain that new crank you just installed in your engine has a pilot hole if running a std transmission before installing engine.

Checking valve springs for coil bind already mentioned.

Check oil pickup distance from floor of oil pan.

Make certain that oil pan bolts are correct length, not stainless and are torqued to proper 15 pounds. If damages oil pan flange, either get a new oil pan supplier or use a girdle.

Make certain on number 5 rear main if using studs instead of bolts that oil pan itself does not get hung up on the tip of of one of the studs. Do not assume that Milidon and ARP have ever spoken to each other.

Do not assume that rear main retainer pan bolt holes will handle the same length bolts as do the remaining pan bolts that attach to the block itself. Chrysler has a service bulletin put out over 40 years ago on this.

Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked? [Re: Moparteacher] #2365639
09/05/17 06:41 AM
09/05/17 06:41 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 990
Norwalk, Ohio
sycboi Offline
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Norwalk, Ohio
Originally Posted By Moparteacher
Take up the gap between con-rods with a feeler gauge when torquing.


Is this to keep the bearings/cap/rod square to the journal and arrive at a more precise torque value, and obviously less of a chance to distort the bearings?


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Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked? [Re: DGS] #2365640
09/05/17 07:13 AM
09/05/17 07:13 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,835
MI, usa
dvw Offline
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Originally Posted By DGS
Great tips! Keep 'em coming!

Engine is a 440 based stroker (4.25)




What's the reason for the no interruption during assembly? I intend to do it in stages in order to stay concentrated..

Stages is fine. You don't need to have somebody talking to you while torquing rod bolts, degreeing the cam, etc.
Doug

Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked? [Re: DGS] #2365648
09/05/17 08:49 AM
09/05/17 08:49 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
polyspheric Offline
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engine assembly is like brain surgery, it is absolutely impossible to keep it to clean

New Yorker ran an article decades ago "how do sponges, retractors, forceps wind up inside surgical patients?".

The answer: the king-of-all-medicine brain surgeon makes the same mistakes as the nurse just over from Manila, just slightly less frequently.

Make a pre-flight checkout list, and stick to it. Should have a check box in the left margin for "done", but put in the date too.
Trust nothing.


Boffin Emeritus
Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked? [Re: DGS] #2365678
09/05/17 10:46 AM
09/05/17 10:46 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,857
Pattison Texas
CSK Online shake_head
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When cleaning the 40 year old block ,flush out the water passages with high water pressure.


1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked? [Re: dvw] #2365681
09/05/17 10:52 AM
09/05/17 10:52 AM
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Posts: 876
Missouri
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Missouri
I agree with all that has been said. One of the things I see lacking is checking clearances of moving parts, like piston to valve, spark plug to piston, rods to cylinder block, etc. Always do a mock up and check the clearances with clay and feeler gauges. I have seen a lot of so called high dollar engines that failed due to the lack of checking these simple clearances. If you are going to advance or retard a camshaft, you have to know how much piston to valve you have, advancing a cam reduces intake valve clearance for example. Also when checking piston to valve clearance make sure the pockets in the pistons are large enough in diameter not just deep enough. Just because it rolls over on the engine stand does not mean it will not hit under power when everything warms up.

Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked? [Re: RapidRobert] #2365697
09/05/17 11:15 AM
09/05/17 11:15 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines Offline
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Syracuse,NY
Originally Posted By RapidRobert
Mockup the eng complete from head to toe with gaskets. barely snug the heads so you can still use em. Have the gaskets dry. confirm that everything/all parts fit dead on. Have all your mods/tricks/additions/checks finished. then dissassemble & clean/oil & go back together. there is nothing worse than haveing to make chips on something in the middle of your final assy when something ain't right.



I couldn't agree more. Mock up,mock up, and mock up. There almost always WILL be something to adjust. Then clean, clean and once it's clean, clean it again. Also, I think most people aren't honest to themselves about their own abilities. You have to know when to hire out, call in the cavalry etc. Many engines fail immediately, ( trust me, you don't read about them all on here,but they happen...lol) because pride gets in the way. As Dirty Harry said, " a man's got to know his limitations". That goes for all of us. Lastly, build the best bottom end you can afford. People are infatuated with heads, flow numbers, shiny carbs and camshafts. It's all useless if the bottom end scatters. Be patient, be wise, and build the best shortblock you can.The rest will come when ready.Its always better to be going rounds, than standing, leaning on the fence after E1.


RIP Monte Smith

Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.

WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked? [Re: CompWedgeEngines] #2365733
09/05/17 12:38 PM
09/05/17 12:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,807
Mopar Country, Mi
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Mopar Country, Mi
1. Removing ALL of the nasty casting flash from the inside and outside of the block.

2. radius all sharp edges on the block left from the machining process when the block was manufactured. That goes for aftermarket as well.

3. Clean, clean, clean, clean, clean, clean and clean. Then, clean everything 2 more times.

4. Mock up everything at lease once, sometimes twice or three times.

5. Pay very close attention to alignment of rear main seal. Customers HATE leakers.

6. No short cuts $$$$$$. You get what you pay for...

7. Do NOT be in a rush to complete assembly. You will forget something.

8. If you can't figure out why something does not fit or is not measuring out correctly, swallow your "I'm the KING Mopar Master Engine Builder and not one person on gods green earth knows more than me" pride and ask for help.

9. Have beer when job is done.


Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked? [Re: ccdave] #2365740
09/05/17 12:49 PM
09/05/17 12:49 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,173
PA.
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"Little"John
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PA.
Don't spend 1000.00 getting your heads ported and pull an intake manifold out of the box and bolt it on


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked? [Re: pittsburghracer] #2365767
09/05/17 01:36 PM
09/05/17 01:36 PM
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Washington
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Washington
Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
Don't spend 1000.00 getting your heads ported and pull an intake manifold out of the box and bolt it on


^^^^^^^^YUP^^^^^^^

It happens all the time and I'd why there are too many underachieving engines out there.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked? [Re: madscientist] #2365779
09/05/17 01:55 PM
09/05/17 01:55 PM
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N.E. Ohio
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Cleanliness


70` Cuda`,440 6BBL Jerico,Dana 4.56 Still on 93 Pump Gas
9.87 @ 136/1.31-60ft.`09 Mopar Nationals PASSON PERFORMANCE "Stick-Shift" Champ!
2013 StickShift Challenge Winner@ Mopar Nationals!
Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked? [Re: AndyF] #2365812
09/05/17 02:58 PM
09/05/17 02:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,138
East Aurora (Buffalo) NY
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East Aurora (Buffalo) NY
Originally Posted By AndyF
Originally Posted By DGS
what are the most commonly overlooked steps/items when building an engine? Such as forgetting to take a measurement or forgetting to install an oil plug.


Most common overlooked item is documentation. Very few people actually keep track of part numbers used, dimensions, clearances, etc. After a few months they don't remember what valve springs they used, what the bearing clearances are, what the ring gap was set at, which parts they used, etc. Then when they have a problem they have to start over.


I have a 2" binder with everything I did to my engine when I built my Hemi. I included all my pieces of papers from when I was checking bearing clearances, stretching the rod bolts, etc. I also included all my back of the napkin work when cc'ing the heads, cylinders, etc. If I wrote something down, I threw the paper in the binder. I also cut off every tab and bar code off all the parts I used. From the rods to the temperature sender. I have the balancing sheets, machine shop sheets and all the receipts, I don't want to review that pile!


68 Road Runner (383/4speed, post car w/decor pkg) - Major Project
69 Road Runner w/472 Hemi & 4 speed.
70 Challenger R/T SE EF8 w/ V9J, U - A32 - Major Project
2023 Ford Mach 1
Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked? [Re: DGS] #2365888
09/05/17 04:43 PM
09/05/17 04:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,363
Cotati, CA
Dave Hall Offline
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Cotati, CA
Torque it and WHACK it!

Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked? [Re: Dave Hall] #2365900
09/05/17 04:52 PM
09/05/17 04:52 PM
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Posts: 20,173
PA.
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"Little"John
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If I've had a late night in the shop when I start out the next day I may repeat my last step. Ex (torquing heads, main studs, rods if I used a torque number). It only usually takes 10 minutes and is well worth the peace of mind. When setting valve I mark each rocker with a magic marker as I set them. After spending hours getting my rocker geometry set exactly how I want it I take an engraving tool and mark each rocker so it goes in that exact spot EVERY-TIME they are removed and replaced. This really helps at the track when rushing around.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked? [Re: DGS] #2366006
09/05/17 08:23 PM
09/05/17 08:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,820
Connecticut
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If something doesn't feel right it probably isn't. A picture is worth a thousand words. If you get frustrated take a step back and relax.


best of 11.39 at 117 mph 1.60 60’. 68 340 S Barracuda Fastback F.A.S.T [IMG]http://i67.tinypic.com/2mnnnnt.jpg[/IMG]
Re: Engine building: what's commonly overlooked? [Re: DGS] #2366042
09/05/17 09:16 PM
09/05/17 09:16 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097
back in Georgia
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Like Andy said, documentation, documentation, documentation.

Having to go back and change one thing to accommodate another in final assembly, and not recording it can cause real headaches.


I am personally too often guilty of it. Mostly because of the overwhelming amount of time it take to finish an assembly. Together, and apart countless times, even when there really aren't huge obstacles. Do a combo with lots of interference issues and it's even harder to take the time to record it all.

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