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filters #2361718
08/29/17 02:09 PM
08/29/17 02:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,107
Spring Valley ,Ca.
moparsquid Offline OP
super stock
moparsquid  Offline OP
super stock

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,107
Spring Valley ,Ca.
hello, im running a cross ram set up with two small air filters but they seem to be chocking the performance of the motor they are the typical auto parts store brand 3x6 paper element is there a better choice like K&N thanks

Re: filters [Re: moparsquid] #2361749
08/29/17 02:40 PM
08/29/17 02:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 16,094
Central Florida
larrymopar360 Offline
Stud Muffin
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Stud Muffin

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 16,094
Central Florida
Not a fan of K&N. Do some research and you will see that K&N lets too much dirt through. Their performance claims are in absolutely perfect conditions. In the real world you're lucky to see 2 to 3 hp gains. Not worth the minuscule gain of hp. I say if there is any restriction in air intake, it is the size of the filter, not the filter itself.


Facts are stubborn things.
Re: filters [Re: moparsquid] #2361811
08/29/17 05:34 PM
08/29/17 05:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
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dogdays Offline
I Live Here
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Do some back-to-back runs with filters and without. Have a friend time you, because the extra intake roar without filters will fool the butt dyno.

R.

Re: filters [Re: dogdays] #2361874
08/29/17 07:19 PM
08/29/17 07:19 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,107
Spring Valley ,Ca.
moparsquid Offline OP
super stock
moparsquid  Offline OP
super stock

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,107
Spring Valley ,Ca.
thanks and I totally agree

Re: filters [Re: moparsquid] #2361907
08/29/17 08:14 PM
08/29/17 08:14 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
RapidRobert  Offline
Circle Track
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Lincoln Nebraska
My I ask what is makeing you think the filters are restricting performance? One (at least) of the filter companies has a formula for the amt of filtering square inches of filter area you need for a given displacement (& RPM iirc) (It'd be a ballpark # I would assume) I looked for it but could not find the name. Yes avoid K&N. A good paper wix is fine.


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: filters [Re: RapidRobert] #2362275
08/30/17 12:33 PM
08/30/17 12:33 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,107
Spring Valley ,Ca.
moparsquid Offline OP
super stock
moparsquid  Offline OP
super stock

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,107
Spring Valley ,Ca.
the small round ones im using seemed to have a bit more response when removed it may also have been a sound thing and assumed a drop in performance was noted as previously stated thanks but id like a better one all the same
Originally Posted By RapidRobert
My I ask what is makeing you think the filters are restricting performance? One (at least) of the filter companies has a formula for the amt of filtering square inches of filter area you need for a given displacement (& RPM iirc) (It'd be a ballpark # I would assume) I looked for it but could not find the name. Yes avoid K&N. A good paper wix is fine.

Re: filters [Re: moparsquid] #2362509
08/30/17 08:40 PM
08/30/17 08:40 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax Offline
top fuel
Mattax  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Depends what you are aiming to do, but basically your gut analysis is correct; small air filters become restrictions.

How big is needed depends on a few things:
1. Volumetric Flow That is the volume of air the engine wants to consume over time. Any screen is a restriction and the higher the velocity of the air, a higher percentage gets blocked.
2. Mass Flow If there is a pressure drop across the air cleaner, then the air will be less dense. When the mass flow of air is changed, the fuel needs will change.
3. Pressure in the Fuel Bowls Yea. Really. The air needs to be directed so it goes past the bowl vents without creating extra pressure or suction. Well, some carbs take advantage of that on purpose - usually above the venturi, but that's getting off track.

Summary. Use a filter with enough area to provide enough flow for your engine.
Use a base and lid so the airflow is not disturbing the bowl vents. If using some sort of ram-air (scoop) or the hood clearance is an issue, then make up something like shown in this bowl vent discussion.

Air flow requirement = (CID/2)x (rpm/1728) x VE
from Urich & Fisher Holley Carburetors and Manifolds

Take the air flow required in cubic feet per minute (CFM) and then calculate how big your filter area needs to be.
Figure a clean paper element will flow 4 to 5 cfm per square inch (at 1.5" of H2O, which is a very small pressure drop)
from Vizard Performance with Economy p.24

Oiled cotton gauze filter may protect less from very fine stuff but is good for the last drop of efficiency in a racing motor. It's also better if the element is in situations where it will get wet, muddy or the like. Vizard's test only showed it to be slightly more more flow per inch than the best paper element he tested when both were new.
------------------------------------------------------

Maybe some ballpark examples would help.
A 400 cid engine with 100% VE will flow around 700 cfm at 6000 rpm.
Lets take the best paper element and figure it flows 5 cfm/sq inch at 1.5 "H20.
700 cfm divided by 5 cfm/sq in = 140 square inches.
Lets assume theres room for a 3" tall air cleaner.
140 sq inches divided by 3 inches = 46.7 inches

If the engine is getting a single round air cleaner, then the diameter will equal the circumfrance divided by PI.
46.7 inches divided by 3.14 = 14.8" diameter

In reality a 14" diameter cleaner is going to work well. Even a little smaller (like 12") is not going to be noticed unless racing. Obviously a higher rpm or more efficient engine will want more at its Hp peak.

Using same example but 2 round air cleaners.
46.7 " / 2 = 23.4"
23.4 / PI = 7.5" diameter

Finally, lets use the same example but there's only room for 2.5" tall air cleaners.
140 sq in / 2.5 in = 56 inches
56 /2 air cleaners = 28"
28 in / PI = 8.9"

Last edited by Mattax; 08/30/17 09:23 PM.
Re: filters [Re: Mattax] #2362938
08/31/17 04:56 PM
08/31/17 04:56 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,574
Lakeland FL
F
floridian Offline
pro stock
floridian  Offline
pro stock
F

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,574
Lakeland FL
Originally Posted By Mattax
Depends what you are aiming to do, but basically your gut analysis is correct; small air filters become restrictions.

How big is needed depends on a few things:
1. Volumetric Flow That is the volume of air the engine wants to consume over time. Any screen is a restriction and the higher the velocity of the air, a higher percentage gets blocked.
2. Mass Flow If there is a pressure drop across the air cleaner, then the air will be less dense. When the mass flow of air is changed, the fuel needs will change.
3. Pressure in the Fuel Bowls Yea. Really. The air needs to be directed so it goes past the bowl vents without creating extra pressure or suction. Well, some carbs take advantage of that on purpose - usually above the venturi, but that's getting off track.

Summary. Use a filter with enough area to provide enough flow for your engine.
Use a base and lid so the airflow is not disturbing the bowl vents. If using some sort of ram-air (scoop) or the hood clearance is an issue, then make up something like shown in this bowl vent discussion.

Air flow requirement = (CID/2)x (rpm/1728) x VE
from Urich & Fisher Holley Carburetors and Manifolds

Take the air flow required in cubic feet per minute (CFM) and then calculate how big your filter area needs to be.
Figure a clean paper element will flow 4 to 5 cfm per square inch (at 1.5" of H2O, which is a very small pressure drop)
from Vizard Performance with Economy p.24

Oiled cotton gauze filter may protect less from very fine stuff but is good for the last drop of efficiency in a racing motor. It's also better if the element is in situations where it will get wet, muddy or the like. Vizard's test only showed it to be slightly more more flow per inch than the best paper element he tested when both were new.
------------------------------------------------------

Maybe some ballpark examples would help.
A 400 cid engine with 100% VE will flow around 700 cfm at 6000 rpm.
Lets take the best paper element and figure it flows 5 cfm/sq inch at 1.5 "H20.
700 cfm divided by 5 cfm/sq in = 140 square inches.
Lets assume theres room for a 3" tall air cleaner.
140 sq inches divided by 3 inches = 46.7 inches

If the engine is getting a single round air cleaner, then the diameter will equal the circumfrance divided by PI.
46.7 inches divided by 3.14 = 14.8" diameter

In reality a 14" diameter cleaner is going to work well. Even a little smaller (like 12") is not going to be noticed unless racing. Obviously a higher rpm or more efficient engine will want more at its Hp peak.

Using same example but 2 round air cleaners.
46.7 " / 2 = 23.4"
23.4 / PI = 7.5" diameter

Finally, lets use the same example but there's only room for 2.5" tall air cleaners.
140 sq in / 2.5 in = 56 inches
56 /2 air cleaners = 28"
28 in / PI = 8.9"


Think I will have a beer after this... My head hurts and my eyes are blurry.... LOL

Re: filters [Re: moparsquid] #2363042
08/31/17 08:29 PM
08/31/17 08:29 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
M
mikemee1331 Offline
master
mikemee1331  Offline
master
M

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
i give, why are K&N on the bad list?
as a runner with a six pack my only other option is to pay through the nose for a repro or worse yet, a NOS.

Re: filters [Re: moparsquid] #2363047
08/31/17 08:52 PM
08/31/17 08:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda Offline
About to go away
Supercuda  Offline
About to go away

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
there is only one way to increase flow thru a given area, less restriction, which means less fine particulate filtration.

http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm

More of it out there. If you look at the K&N site for info they are very careful how they present their test data.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: filters [Re: moparsquid] #2363134
08/31/17 11:14 PM
08/31/17 11:14 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 270
Missouri
Big_E Offline
enthusiast
Big_E  Offline
enthusiast

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Posts: 270
Missouri

Re: filters [Re: moparsquid] #2363321
09/01/17 10:27 AM
09/01/17 10:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,740
Port Huron, Michigan
MI_Custumz Offline
master
MI_Custumz  Offline
master

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,740
Port Huron, Michigan
Has anyone contacted Wix to see if they would make a filter? Doesn't have to be exact looking, just fit since it's either an expensive repop, OEM, or K&N.

Re: filters [Re: Big_E] #2363330
09/01/17 10:42 AM
09/01/17 10:42 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,698
jersey
S
Spaceman Spiff Offline
master
Spaceman Spiff  Offline
master
S

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,698
jersey
Originally Posted By Big_E


That article is for stock type vehicles.
What about those of us with High HP engines that need a lot of airflow?


526 cubes of angry wedge, pushbutton shifted, 9 passenger killer!
Re: filters [Re: moparsquid] #2363375
09/01/17 11:41 AM
09/01/17 11:41 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,324
Ohio
J
jlatessa Offline
pro stock
jlatessa  Offline
pro stock
J

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,324
Ohio
If you have a hood scoop, you could stack two filters if space allows,
Permatex the two together for easier handling.

What we do...Joe

Re: filters [Re: Spaceman Spiff] #2363914
09/02/17 05:41 AM
09/02/17 05:41 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 270
Missouri
Big_E Offline
enthusiast
Big_E  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 270
Missouri
Originally Posted By Spaceman Spiff
Originally Posted By Big_E


That article is for stock type vehicles.
What about those of us with High HP engines that need a lot of airflow?


Still holds true. Filtration or HP. What do the big boys use? I've seen no filters on the strip to stock looking and K&N style on the high banks.







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