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fried harness wires. Why? #2363757
09/01/17 09:56 PM
09/01/17 09:56 PM
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eightlitermopar Offline OP
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71 RR with 383, AT. This car has been sitting for 3 years, finally got new tires, registration, new gas, etc. I drove it over 100 miles in the last 2 months. I take out the battery when not driving it.

Today, hook up the battery and it starts "crackling" like the the lights or on or something. Then I see the smoke from under the hood. Disconnect the battery. I thought a mouse may have chewed a wire or something. After fixing a few wires at the starter relay (hot side was fried), hooked up the battery again. No more crackling. Whew!

The passenger side park light is constantly on now, and I have no power to the coil. I can turn the motor over but no spark. Wires cooked, and from what I can see, some wires melted under the dash too.

So now my question. Why did it all of a sudden fry?

How do I fix it? I know very little about electrical so where do I start? harnesses will have to be replaced, but I seriously don't know where to start.

eightlitermopar

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2363759
09/01/17 09:59 PM
09/01/17 09:59 PM
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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2363761
09/01/17 10:07 PM
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I am guessing based on the car you called out and the pics.
Black wire burned out.
Traces back to the alt.
So your main power circuit feed ate itself.

Either your amp meter died, alterator died with a dead short, or that was melting all along from not being maintained/cleaned and finally burned through this last time.

the light and not being able to start are burned wiring or connections.

you need a new engine harness and dash harness if you can't trouble shoot the wiring yourself.

http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=27

will give you the diagrams you need to see where the wiring goes and wire in new ones or pop out the harnesses and start again with new connectors.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Andrewh] #2363776
09/01/17 10:32 PM
09/01/17 10:32 PM
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somewhere in the main circuit from battery positive post to FL to bulkhead inside dash to ammeter to welded splice to bulkhead & out to alt there was a dead short to ground (plus from welded splice under dash it goes to the fuse box/steering col (ign sw)/headlight switch. everything is hot all the time like the wall sockets in your house which is why it smoked when you reinstalled the battery without turning anything on. it smoked under the hood so start by tracing from the battery to the firewall & see if you can decipher where/how it got shorted to ground. NAPA has new brass "Packard 56 type" 1/4" male/female terminals for 99 cents ea (725147/725145) tho with the bulkhead damage you may have to run em straight thru. I think you can have someone replace the damaged circuits but first we gotta find that dead short.


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: RapidRobert] #2363800
09/01/17 11:21 PM
09/01/17 11:21 PM
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Thanks for the replies. The starter relay "hot" wire was the one that was completely fried/melted. My original theory was a rodent had been chewing on the wires which caused them to short?

But it's impossible to tell now because its melted. Other than that, are there common culprits to check first? As mentioned, the alternator or something like that?

I would hate to go through all this and just fry my next fixed (or replaced) harness.

thanks again!

eightlitermopar


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2363844
09/02/17 12:58 AM
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that is a strange one as the main circuit from batt to SR/SR to starter/SR to bulkhead are large wires & I wouldn't think a rodent would chew thru something that large but I dont know animals so I am speculating & if it chewed thru & severed a wire then that hot end would have to fall down & make contact with ground to effect a dead short. I'm thinking more a mechanical shift of something that grounded. However my new therapy cat that I adopted from CL, within a week it chewed thru the ph cord (a real thin one) & the next day it was relocated to the Humane Society.


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2363950
09/02/17 09:53 AM
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most of the major pieces can be taken out and tested at the parts store.

as for the rest, I would guess a test light to the wiring.

wire up the ground to the battery like normal but leave the hot off.

then probe each line with a test light hooked to the pos of the battery.

if it lights up something on the other end is grounded.
Just have to find what it is.
The wiring diagram should help figure that out.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2363982
09/02/17 11:33 AM
09/02/17 11:33 AM
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That's the alt wire running to ammeter. TIpical Mopar failure due the low output alts used from factory ( believe it or not ) which overheats the contacts ( unable to hold the extra load ) when reving up the engine... all along these years up to the final failure.

Check this thread.

How it works the Charging circuit system and how to upgrade or fix



Last edited by NachoRT74; 09/02/17 11:39 AM.

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: NachoRT74] #2363999
09/02/17 12:13 PM
09/02/17 12:13 PM
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thanks! this gives me some information I was not aware of. Given The fried bulkhead, I was wondering if my starter relay wire was bad as stated -OR- something under the dash causing the problem; ie ammeter

From what I can see, some wires under the dash appear melted too. My theory now is some melted wires that are now touching so the hot wire is now feeding a park/turn light instead of my coil.

First step today would be to remove the steering column and take out the instrument cluster to gain better access and see what I am doing. Does this sound like a good starting point in my position?

I may be able to repair some wires instead of buying a whole new harness, but we will see once I get in there.

Thanks!

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364041
09/02/17 01:48 PM
09/02/17 01:48 PM
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so take your cell phone and record the hold downs as you remove it.
The routing is a bit odd and tight in places for the few I have pulled.
I would start with the bulkhead connector and work my way back. Start in the engine compartment and pull those on that side.
the whole box comes out from the passenger compartment side and then you have to start finding where it is held down from there.

Unfortunatly the underdash is going to go to a lot of things, vs the engine side one that has only a few items per plug.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Andrewh] #2364049
09/02/17 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted By Andrewh
so take your cell phone and record the hold downs as you remove it.
The routing is a bit odd and tight in places for the few I have pulled.
I would start with the bulkhead connector and work my way back. Start in the engine compartment and pull those on that side.
the whole box comes out from the passenger compartment side and then you have to start finding where it is held down from there.

Unfortunatly the underdash is going to go to a lot of things, vs the engine side one that has only a few items per plug.


So just to clarify, starting under the dash is the best place to start? I figure removing the steering column and instrument cluster will make a difficult task a little bit easier?

I am doing this in baby steps because its my first time and I don't want to screw anything up more than it already is.

Last edited by eightlitermopar; 09/02/17 02:05 PM.

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364055
09/02/17 02:09 PM
09/02/17 02:09 PM
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Having a 71, I can say it would be easer pulling the column and seats, rotating the dash down so you can get to everything and put the new back where the old was. Be sure to check the wires that run through the column cause that is where the voltage regulator gets its signal from. Be sure to buy a can of Dioxit 5 to clean all the terminals that get reused.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: 71birdJ68] #2364092
09/02/17 03:08 PM
09/02/17 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted By 71birdJ68
Having a 71, I can say it would be easer pulling the column and seats, rotating the dash down so you can get to everything and put the new back where the old was. Be sure to check the wires that run through the column cause that is where the voltage regulator gets its signal from. Be sure to buy a can of Dioxit 5 to clean all the terminals that get reused.


Thanks for the suggestion, I did just that. I am not as small as I used to be 20 years ago when I bought this car in high school.

Sure enough, fried wires to ammeter. I will try to cut out the melted portion and rewrap, but if not I will just get a whole new harness and go from there. If there is another way to save this harness, I am open to suggestions. Thanks!

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364093
09/02/17 03:09 PM
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I was just commenting on how to start on the harness.
not the procedure to get to it.
I would listen to the poster above that owns one.

Though I personally would try to pull as little as possible as I know how tough it is to get it back.

But yes you are right, it is much easier if you can see instead of working by braile. With all the dash compoents removed you can see where the routing is and what needs to be un twisted etc..

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364094
09/02/17 03:09 PM
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right at the back of the cluster

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364105
09/02/17 03:24 PM
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ugh.
till you peel it apart, no way to know how much is melted together.

I had one issue that burned 3 inches of insulation both ways and vaporize about an inch of copper. 10 gauge wire.

you can't trust you got it with just the ends as much as that tape burned away.

once you get deeper into it, you may find most of the insulation is damaged on the remaning line and you can't pull it apart.

you could still salvage the harness if you want to take the time to rewire it.

cost vs time is where you are at now.

looks like a dash harness is around 500 depending on rally gauges or not.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364146
09/02/17 05:09 PM
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Also, on a 71, the gauges are almost impossible to get to with the dash installed, so if anything needs done to them, do it now. I would buy one of the electronic voltage limiters from Real Time co, and replace the old one, cause if it goes bad it can stick either open, or closed, if it sticks open that will fry the gauges. On the harness, buy one from Year One cause they are the best. If you need any more help, just holler.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: 71birdJ68] #2364156
09/02/17 05:34 PM
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Keep digging (unwrapping) till you find out where it dead shorted to ground.


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: 71birdJ68] #2364165
09/02/17 05:53 PM
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Some great advice for tracing.

I find it much easier to work with pictures and diagrams.
Feel free to download any of the diagrams off this page as starting points.
http://www.heritech.org/cuda/Charge.html
Modify it to match your 71, or do your own from scratch using screen shots from the shop manual. You can see I did that for my '67 (at bottom of page linked).
MS Paint will do pretty much everything needed.

Why?
This will be easier to figure once you've ID each damaged wire.
The wire that should have protected all the rest from too much current from the battery is the fusible link.

A rodent chewing partially through the Battery + to Relay would reduce its current carrying capicity but wouldn't explain the damage at the bulkhead and behind the dash. A connection to ground (such as bare wire touching the body due to chafed insulation) would draw as much as the battery can deliver.

If you're going to replace individual wire yourself, you'll need:
Packard 56 terminals for a range of wire sizes.
Small flat terminal removal tool makes it easier.
A good crimper - Compound action and exact fit makes it easier.
A good wire stripper.
Electrical contact cleaner.
Correct wrap - or the wrap of your preference.
Wire with the correct insulation. I like to go to the marine supply because they stock many different colors and sizes that can be purchased by the foot. Also know that most wire at auto parts stores are for chassis. Engine compartment insulation has better oil and heat resistance.

That's all for later, if you go that route.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: RapidRobert] #2364167
09/02/17 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted By RapidRobert
Keep digging (unwrapping) till you find out where it dead shorted to ground.


If he still has the fuse link, this failure is not a short, because fuse link should blown.

ALTHOUGHT, wiring looks fried like a short and not overheated! Interesting!

Amm studs look healthy


Wondering what it was the reading on ammeter when it happened!

Last edited by NachoRT74; 09/02/17 06:05 PM.

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: RapidRobert] #2364194
09/02/17 07:00 PM
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I have had a rodent issue before and found online that it is a pretty common problem with newer wiring. Apparently the manufacturers are using a soy based component on the "plastic" insulation that attracts hungry critters. If it was a newly manufactured harness, it may have been nibbled on exposing bare wire. Probably not what happened here but an interesting FYI

Last edited by Dr Dave; 09/02/17 07:05 PM.
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Dr Dave] #2364232
09/02/17 09:21 PM
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Update: I spent the day ripping apart melted wires. I took the steering column and cluster out completely allowing me free access. Someone had mentioned a fuseable link. The fuseable link at the starter relay was still intact but the wire was melted. Bizarre.

Red and Black were the cooked wires. The others around it were collateral damage with red and black melted goo on it but they are still intact. As I took the time to peel them carefully apart, I inspected the other wires and so far so good.

I was hoping to try to replace just the black and red wires for now and see if that would work. Being an original harness, I wonder if those two wires had somehow worn and shorted within the harness? The red wire is completely out, but the black appears to be spliced to several other circuits so I will just cut and splice the new ends (see photo).

Could the ammeter be had causing this? If so, how do I test it before I put it all back together?

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364234
09/02/17 09:23 PM
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As you can see, the only two fried wires in the harness and at the bulkhead are red and black. As I replace these two wires, what gauge should they be?

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364240
09/02/17 09:31 PM
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Do you have a service manual? If not you really need to get one. Are you done checking the harness?

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: 71birdJ68] #2364244
09/02/17 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted By 71birdJ68
Do you have a service manual? If not you really need to get one. Are you done checking the harness?


Today I just took it all apart and visually checked everything and completely removed the red wire which had barely any insulation on it.

The black was better but not by much. If the red or black was the culprit, its impossible to tell now based on their messy suicide.

I do not have a service manual (if I do, its buried in my shop since we moved 3 years ago).

I was thinking to test the harness with the test light as mentioned, but I would need the red and black wires replaced before that would work, right?


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364246
09/02/17 09:44 PM
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Quote:
I wonder if those two wires had somehow worn and shorted within the harness?
wiring goes bad from: excessive flexing that work hardens and breaks the copper strands (rare)/pinched insulation that breaks thru the insulation & allows copper strands to dead short to ground (fairly rare)/ poor or no continuity at the terminals/connections over time due to moisture causing corrosion and poor crimping/poor or no soldering when it went together (fairly common over a period of time). lastly open & burnt terminals/burnt insulation/sometimes melted copper strands if enough amperage is flowing which is what happened here either from a dead short to ground (likely) or a near dead short to ground in an electrical component. the flimsy ammeter insulating washers may have let it ground into the ammeter mounting bracket. visual & ohm it, neither terminal should have any continuity to the mounting bracket. Otherwise keep digging. I had a reg full field to where the insulation was melted (not near as bad as your deal) cuz your dead short is worse & the fusible link NEVER opened. A guy suggested one of those colored plastic fused with the 2 male lugs (& carry spares) is a good move, a 30 amper tho other than that on my '66 dart I have had no issues with dead shorting or full fielding.


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364253
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While you have everything apart, I would take all of the nuts, and so forth on the gauges and clean everything with a brush and Deoxit.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364254
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so that splice could be factory.
I set a link for the wiring diagram from the service manual at the top post I made.
Check it out, it will show if that is the case.
IT doesn't look melted rather clamped.

maybe yes, maybe no on the test light.
Those do provide power into the car and back out. The splices go to other circuits to power them up.
But even without them, it would show dead shorts to ground.
If every circuit is dead then you know those were the only damage.
If something lights up then it is time to trace that circuit.

No damage to be done as the test light is the only load and would prevent further damage.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Andrewh] #2364255
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That looks like the factory welded splice in the dash.

Last edited by 71birdJ68; 09/02/17 10:04 PM.
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Andrewh] #2364256
09/02/17 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted By Andrewh
so that splice could be factory.
I set a link for the wiring diagram from the service manual at the top post I made.
Check it out, it will show if that is the case.
IT doesn't look melted rather clamped.

maybe yes, maybe no on the test light.
Those do provide power into the car and back out. The splices go to other circuits to power them up.
But even without them, it would show dead shorts to ground.
If every circuit is dead then you know those were the only damage.
If something lights up then it is time to trace that circuit.

No damage to be done as the test light is the only load and would prevent further damage.


FYI: Just checked ammeter ohms and it has no continuity. As far as the test light, let me make sure I am doing it right. Thanks in advance for patience, electrical has never been a strong point for me.

battery ground on.
Leave positive battery off.
attach long wire from + battery to + side of test light.
Start checking circuits (at bulkhead connector?)
Do I need to ground my test light to the chassis as well? or will the negative battery cable do this for me?


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: 71birdJ68] #2364257
09/02/17 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted By 71birdJ68
That looks like the factory welded splice in the dash.


I agree, it had the old mopar cloth tape around it. I will fix the black wire ends and retape when done.

Last edited by eightlitermopar; 09/02/17 10:11 PM.

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364267
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I am not sure how to explain that simply.

so test light to positive on the battery. should only have 1 wire on it.
not a meter, but test light.

the ground connected to the battery on your harness. no positive cable connected.

Now you should be able to touch the test light to the positive cable and say with the key on or a door open, (assuming your switch works) and the light should light up. It completed the circuit and is drawing power, but limited to your test light.
Your interior lights shouldn't have enough power to come on. (at least I think) worst case you pop your test light.

Doing this with a meter might burn it out. or blow the fuse and I think you would have to do amps.

Anyway, now if you check any other circuit it should do the same.
Anything that completes the circuit to ground, either by dead short or a switch turned on to ground, will cause the test light to come one.

But you have to be sure you have enough of the circuit there to test.
As long as the engine to body ground is there it should work on any dead shorts to ground no matter where they are.
You can test it by touching the test light to the body or bare block and see that it lights up too.
That means any wiring exposed and touching the body or block will cause it to light up too.

IF it doesn't then you don't have a complete ground circuit and you will have to find out why.
I can't imagine that won't work, but let us know if it doesn't.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364269
09/02/17 10:30 PM
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Quote:


Could the ammeter be had causing this? If so, how do I test it before I put it all back together?

That appears to be a factory junction, probably the main junction.
Start by looking at the diagrams showing how the power flows .
Then look at the damaged wires and see what they connect to.

Quote:
The fuseable link at the starter relay was still intact but the wire was melted. Bizarre
.
Take a picture there as well.
Not neccessarily strange at all. It depends on where the short was, where the power came from (was the engine running?) and where the highest resistance was in the path back to ground. We know there was enough heat at bulkhead to break at least one connection.

It is important to get the electrical diagram for your vehicle. If you don't want to buy, take a look around the web, people have posted portions electrical diagrams here as pictures and there's even some pdf floating around out there. I know that 'cause I was looking at an early 70s Dodge diagram within the past month or so.
The diagram will show the wire gage. It will show the insulation colors. It will show where the wires are supposed to connect. It will show the fusible link or links and there locations.

Again you can use my simplified factory diagram as a starting point. Much of it will be the same or similar. (Differences will be the bulkhead numbers, link location, and of course the alternator will have a ground wire to the regulator.) Another difference may be the wire sizes and some of the colors.



Last edited by Mattax; 09/03/17 12:40 PM. Reason: fixed link
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364274
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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364280
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Its interesting that the ammeter does not show signs of damage at its connections. The only concern will be if the shunt was damaged.

I think an ohmeter may be the best way to look for high resistance and poor continuity in the wiring. You can also use it to check for shorts to ground.

PS. Figure out what #18 on the bulkhead connects too. It's melted insulation suggests it got too much current. If yes, I'm seeing that right. Then its a clue where that excessive current was flowing too, depending on if the engine was running or not.
If the engine was running, then that will explain things too.

Last edited by Mattax; 09/02/17 10:47 PM.
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364288
09/02/17 10:59 PM
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Andrew, Thanks. Then the big question is whether the engine was running.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Mattax] #2364301
09/02/17 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted By Mattax
Andrew, Thanks. Then the big question is whether the engine was running.


engine was not running. I just hooked up the battery and the smoke show started. No key in the ignition, nothing.

#18 on the bulkhead is connected to the alternator.

#16 was the red wire coming in hot from the starter relay.


Mopar or no car
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364318
09/03/17 12:18 AM
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OK. There you have it. Now you know where to look. Right?
If not, look at the diagram and ask yourself why would power be flowing through #18 to the alternator.
I'll see if I can hot-link it direct, but my host service may not allow it. If not I'm refering to Nacho's diagram in this link.
http://www.heritech.org/cuda/Charge.html

(yes. they've made it hard to hot-link)

Last edited by Mattax; 09/03/17 12:23 AM.
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Mattax] #2364330
09/03/17 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted By Mattax
OK. There you have it. Now you know where to look. Right?
If not, look at the diagram and ask yourself why would power be flowing through #18 to the alternator.
I'll see if I can hot-link it direct, but my host service may not allow it. If not I'm refering to Nacho's diagram in this link.
http://www.heritech.org/cuda/Charge.html

(yes. they've made it hard to hot-link)


Ok, I am looking at the link and I see the path is should take. But, shouldn't the alternator be hot all the time with battery connected? What would cause it to draw that kind of power with nothing turned on.

The ammeter is a link in that circuit. So what would be the weak link that would cause that to fry? headlight switch, ignition switch, or something with the fusebox..... Would a faulty ammeter cause something like this? The wires were cooked to and from the ammeter, but not the ammeter itself.

I should also add: after I replaced the wire from the starter relay which was fried (at the time I thought thats all is was), I was able to turn the headlights on and off. The key worked by turning over the starter, but no spark to coil. With the battery connected, the R side park turn signal was on continuously (not blinking) as well as the blinker indicator (also not blinking) on the dash.

I have to work tomorrow but I will do some more investigating and wire repair on Monday. Thanks so much for all the help, I really appreciate it guys!

eightlitermopar

Last edited by eightlitermopar; 09/03/17 12:41 AM.

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364351
09/03/17 01:09 AM
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I'm going to have to think about that (what you just wrote) too.
While you were writing that, I was marking up one of the drawings.

To the first question. shouldn't the alternator be hot all the time with battery connected? Yes.
The wire to the alternator will be at the same voltage as the battery.
But, there will be no power flowing in that wire because there is no place for the current to go. The power only flows when there is a lower voltage, idealy ground, zero voltage.

So my first guess (illustrated here) is that the alternator wire was somehow connected to ground. This could have been touching a ground wire, the chassis, or internal to the alternator. Use an ohmeter (or a test light) and see if that wire is grounded.

1Route_of_Power_that_Fried_wires.jpg
Possible route of current flow causing failure.

Last edited by Mattax; 09/03/17 01:10 AM.
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364370
09/03/17 01:46 AM
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Quote:
What would cause it to draw that kind of power with nothing turned on.

A short to ground. The battery can deliver a lot of current; 400 to 600 amps delivered at 12 to 13 volts eek The starter is the only item that normally asks for a lot of current.

Quote:
The ammeter is a link in that circuit.
Yup. In this case, it was not the weakest link. It should have indicated a roughly how much current was flowing before things fried.

Quote:
So what would be the weak link that would cause that to fry?
It appears in this case the weakest link was the terminal for the alternator wire in the bulkhead connector. In your photo I see nothing remaining there. Several others show some damage. I don't know if that's from this event or previous heat during use. Oxidation, dirt, anything that makes it harder for the electricity to flow creates resistance which creates heat when lots of current tries to go through.

Quote:
headlight switch, ignition switch, or something with the fusebox.....

Doesn't appear to be unless you find evidence that it went toward one of those.
Quote:
The wires were cooked to and from the ammeter, but not the ammeter itself.
The ammeter itself is not a problem. Inside are two parallel paths. One small and drives the meter; the other is a big wire called the shunt. Most of the power goes through the shunt. The meter is another link and set of connections. Same deal, they must be clean and snug. As someone mentioned, it would be reasonable to check and make sure it wasn't internally damaged from the current.

edit:
Quote:
I should also add: after I replaced the wire from the starter relay which was fried (at the time I thought thats all is was), I was able to turn the headlights on and off. The key worked by turning over the starter, but no spark to coil. With the battery connected, the R side park turn signal was on continuously (not blinking) as well as the blinker indicator (also not blinking) on the dash.


If I understand correctly, first the wire from the battery to the starter relay failed.
Then after this was replaced, you were trying to figure out why it would not start. I think this can be figured out. It will help to draw out the wiring to include the voltage regulator and the ignition. I still think its likely alternator or alternator wiring related.

PS. Those Mymopar wiring diagrams didn't seem to quite match what I'm seeing in your photos. Turns out those are not factory diagrams. I have no idea where they got them from - something aftermarket like Chiltons or Mitchels I guess. If its the same as the late 60s, the real diagrams are probably in '71 Plymouth service manual (which is also on that website).

Last edited by Mattax; 09/03/17 02:02 AM.
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Mattax] #2364451
09/03/17 11:13 AM
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I'm gonna go (way) out on a limb & suggest that the alt main batt threaded stud internally dead shorted or near dead shorted to ground.


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Mattax] #2364492
09/03/17 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted By Mattax

Start by looking at the diagrams showing how the power flows .
Then look at the damaged wires and see what they connect to.





Bud there is not link there

Last edited by NachoRT74; 09/03/17 12:24 PM.

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: NachoRT74] #2364503
09/03/17 12:37 PM
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Fixed it Nacho! Thanks

On the no spark question:
The disconnected wire with blue with white trace may be the Ignition 1. If so, that's why power to the coil if the key was in the Run position.

But in Start position, Ignition 2 supplies power to the coil.

This charge & start colored wiring diagram may make that clearer.


Last edited by Mattax; 09/03/17 12:53 PM.
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364508
09/03/17 12:45 PM
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ok, I read over all the replies... from what I can remmeber here is what I have got, some of these already posted.

-The splice is original one, is the main one posted on diagrams. Reds in that splice are ign key source and BATT buss bar on fuse box, rest are headlights source and the bulkhead and ammeter sections. It is spot electrically welded and not lead welded because lead can cause somehow a resistance over a thik splice like hat

-as mentioned, the bulkhead burnt wires are alternator and batt, bot 12 gauge

-I'm still wondeting how these wires can get that damage and the fuse link which is barelly 16 gauge not to blown, even less with an engine not running.

-I can see REALLY healthy amm studs and nuts, clean and right color. I can't see any sign overheat there.

-No need to replace the full harness, just replace those wires ( 12 gauge ) and terminals ( packard 56s ). Get a new bulkhead block ( which is available around, same than E bodies ) and new engine harness plug ( also available ). Check the forward light harness plug too. Probably its stuck due the red wire overheat and plastic melt. That plug is also available. Red wire is pretty much easy to replace since is just one way from bulkhead up to ammeter. Black gets two sections... from splice up to ammeter stud and from splice up to bulkhead. Then retape the underdash harnes... piece of cake job. Packard 56 terminals are available around

-After the fix and before plug back the battery make a continuity check with ground. Will need to unplug dome light and ANY bulb which operates with batt source ( if you have map light and ign key courtesy light, unplugg them too ) since withthose bulbs conected you CAN get an ohm reading with chassis due the bulbs. Remember a Bulb is a "controlled short" what makes to glow the filament resistor, so will read a short.

-Ammeter should show a 0 or close to that Ohms reading between them and no continuity with chassis.

so... lets beging to replacing the damaged parts and then track the posible failure

Once again, I can't get a fuse link not blowing here. Even with engine running, the alt won't source the short enough, like the batt is able to, that's the reason why the fuse link is just on batt side. With an engine running selfpowered by the alt and no batt, the engine will stall with a short



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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364523
09/03/17 01:02 PM
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Brown wire on cav 22 is ballast bypass on ign2 ( cranking )... it seems the cover just a bit melt due the black wire heat. Just clean the melted cover and apply some tape over the wire

The same with wire on cav 12 which is parking lights circuit as far I recall

I can't recall the violet traced wire loose end on pic arriving anywhere to bulkhead... maybe Horn relay source what came off from the fusebox cavity ? maybe you'll find there the terminal still into the cavity

Violet wire on cav 21 is temp sender. Seems it got some heat over the cover... same procedure, clean and tape it


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364526
09/03/17 01:09 PM
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A picture of the wiring at the relay may help.

Nacho while you're covering repair. Battery to starter relay should be 10 gage (or is it larger on the B-bodies?) and have insulation for engine compartments.
GPT insulation is OK inside the car, not for the engine side.
Marine is OK and has heavier wire and is tinned.
Insulation marked TXL, GXL, SXL, & TWP is OK for engine area as is battery/starter cable.

Last edited by Mattax; 09/03/17 01:16 PM.
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364531
09/03/17 01:13 PM
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aside the wires and terminals what should be available anywhere locally at a parts shops, here the related parts to a nice fix

bulkhead
http://www.megapartsusa.com/proddetail.asp?prod=104%2DBH7074

forward light harness which maybe will get broken if you try to remove to check the red wire terminals condition
http://www.megapartsusa.com/proddetail.asp?prod=MP%2DQ8&cat=749

they had the engine harness plug too, but maybe they are out of stock at this moment ? contact them just in case. Couldn't find any other on ebay, but just in case this is a full engine bay side set:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wiring-Connector...nc2&vxp=mtr



With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Mattax] #2364538
09/03/17 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted By Mattax
Fixed it Nacho! Thanks

On the no spark question:
The disconnected wire with blue with white trace may be the Ignition 1. If so, that's why power to the coil if the key was in the Run position.

But in Start position, Ignition 2 supplies power to the coil.

This charge & start colored wiring diagram may make that clearer.



You know that I made a similar thread at DC.com about how the power flows on Start and run looong time ago ? maybe at the same time I posted about the alt and wiring upgrade. will search and post


EDITING, I recall both wires being 12 gauge...

EDITING 2...10 gauge on engine bay side ( between bulkhead and fuse link ) for red one, but still 12 on cab side. I just talked about cab side because engine bay side looks still in good conditions. I don't get why 10 gauge just in that section

Last edited by NachoRT74; 09/03/17 01:26 PM.

With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: NachoRT74] #2364541
09/03/17 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted By NachoRT74
will search and post

I copied your other diagram and will snag this one too.
Very helpful thank-you. up


I have mechanical Aptitude.
I can screw up anything.
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: NachoRT74] #2364545
09/03/17 01:28 PM
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Here's a picture from the CJ forum of the crimper jaws for open the open barrel terminals.
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/basic-wiring-101-getting-you-started-1340134/

Some of his links are dead but the pictures are useful.
Some On-line/mail order sources for Packard or Delphi 56 terminals and connectors:
Terminal Supply Co
Waytek Wire
The Electrical Depot

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364546
09/03/17 01:29 PM
09/03/17 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted By bboogieart
Originally Posted By NachoRT74
will search and post

I copied your other diagram and will snag this one too.
Very helpful thank-you. up


I have the diagrams at my PC, but searching the thread

Last edited by NachoRT74; 09/03/17 01:29 PM.

With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364551
09/03/17 01:33 PM
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found it!

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,35199.0.html

must to say, BOTH ign circuits are actually hot in both stages ( Ign1 and ign2 ) because BOTH are spliced into the ballast together, thats why the brake light on cluster dims a bit while CRANKING ( ign2 ), because this light is sourced from RUN ( ign1 ) circuit but on a decayed power through the ballast, HOWEVER I ilustrated just how it works FROM ign switch


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: NachoRT74] #2364555
09/03/17 01:38 PM
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Again thank you very much. beer


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I can screw up anything.
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364556
09/03/17 01:39 PM
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Nacho - I don't think I've seen one you've done with ignition circuit.
Every car is a little different so I needed to make a detailed one for mine anyway.

Quote:
10 gauge on engine bay side ( between bulkhead and fuse link ) for red one, but still 12 on cab side. I just talked about cab side because engine bay side looks still in good conditions. I don't get why 10 gauge just in that section

Maybe the larger size is to account for heat in the engine bay.
From the Battery to the Relay makes is probably because it supplies current to the relay at the starter solenoid.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Mattax] #2364590
09/03/17 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted By Mattax
Nacho - I don't think I've seen one you've done with ignition circuit.


kinda off, just posted it.

yeap, every car is diff. my diagrassm are of course based on 3rd gen Chargers.

and yes, definitelly I can get 10 gauge between batt and relay, but not between fuse link and bulkhead... well whatever it is the reason, the wire is there smile


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2364667
09/03/17 04:01 PM
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Not certain if appropriate for this issue this late in the game, but have found this tool very helpful in shortening analysis time on some of my own tough electrical issues.

https://www.google.com/search?q=short+bu...p;client=safari

Main downside is that is designed to use with blade type fuses, but with a bit of creativity can work with older cars using glass type fuses

Best to check out reviews for further info.

Once had a very random blowing of brake light fuse on our 71 Vette,,,,had spent days sorting it out. Used this tool and found the problem in short order.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Sxrxrnr] #2365310
09/04/17 05:20 PM
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eightlitermopar Offline OP
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Wow! I was gone for one day and I have all these responses! Thanks for the information. I will go through all of the posts later this evening.

Today I am currently replacing the fried Red and Black wires from the harness. After those are repaired, I will move forward to replacing bulk head connectors and such.

For amusement, here is a picture of the fried Red wire from the bulk head to the ammeter taken today.

IMG_0636.JPG

Mopar or no car
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365313
09/04/17 05:24 PM
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Only time I ever saw this happen was when the output wire from my alternator got up against the exhaust manifold and melted thru. That smoked a lot of wires.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Supercuda] #2365317
09/04/17 05:36 PM
09/04/17 05:36 PM
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eightlitermopar Offline OP
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Originally Posted By Supercuda
Only time I ever saw this happen was when the output wire from my alternator got up against the exhaust manifold and melted thru. That smoked a lot of wires.


I am replacing/ repairing what I can, but I haven't found the culprit yet. This was a high and dry desert car for all its life until 18 months ago when I shipped it to our new place here in Florida.

So far the only thing I can guess is those old, corroded connections became more corroded by sitting in a humid environment which led to the straw that broke the camels back.

A few weeks ago I was driving and it started backfiring and sputtering bad. It has OLD gas in the tank so I flushed the lines and put new, ethanol free gas in the tank and ran it for a while. The problem seemed to go away until I parked it. Now I am second guessing the bad gas and wondering if the electrical was starting to short at that point.

I am glad I took out the battery or it could have burned my small shop and car to the ground! panic

Anyway, will update later.


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365318
09/04/17 05:40 PM
09/04/17 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Wow! I was gone for one day and I have all these responses! Thanks for the information.
We love ya brother! We got your back. I'm looking forward to finding out exactly WHAT/WHERE it dead shorted.


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365397
09/04/17 08:20 PM
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Robert, I think made a pretty good guess. Based on the info so far, I'd start with checking the alternator's battery stud for a short to ground and work back from there.

8liter - Could have been fuel and yes poor running could have been dirty or looseness on a connector leading to the coil. But the poor connection is just where the heat builds, not why its drew so much current.

Lets see a photo of the battery and relay wiring when you have a chance.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Mattax] #2365479
09/04/17 10:33 PM
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Ok, ran out of daylight but here are some photos that may be able to help us out. First picture is the battery compartment in the trunk.

Aluminum open box with stick welder copper wire (bought new) for the lead. Runs through the passenger compartment into the engine bay where the tray used to sit. Battery was placed in trunk when I first got the car in 1998.

IMG_0640.JPG

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365480
09/04/17 10:34 PM
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Battery connections are clean (probably the only clean thing on this car right now)

IMG_0641.JPG

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365481
09/04/17 10:36 PM
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Wire comes to engine compartment. The red wire is spliced into this large copper wire and wrapped/insulated where it then goes to the starter relay.

IMG_0643.JPG

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365482
09/04/17 10:37 PM
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Insulated welder lug inside the wheel well.

IMG_0645.JPG

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365484
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Another view of the welding lug from up top.

IMG_0647.JPG

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365486
09/04/17 10:43 PM
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So in the meantime, I need to gather some things for repair until I figure out exactly what I need to do. This is my shopping list so far, correct me if I need something else or am buying the wrong things.

Crimping tool: https://www.amazon.com/Delphi-Packard-Fi...AQXYK9REDVGY0F4

Male terminals: https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NW_725145

Female terminals: https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NW_725147

Bulkhead connector: http://www.megapartsusa.com/proddetail.asp?prod=104-BH7074


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365500
09/04/17 10:57 PM
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https://www.amazon.com/50-Female-Terminals-2084421-2962447/dp/B0040CU11M

https://www.amazon.com/Packard-Male-Gaug...9BYT9ED6A1SXCMY

cheaper than napa if you are ordering on line.

or del city or
probably a few other places.

I only use napa when I need 1 or 2 and have to have it today.

not sure I would order a new bulkhead connector.
you can patch up or by pass the one you have.

taking it apart and redoing all the connectors is good enough.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Mattax] #2365503
09/04/17 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted By Mattax


If I understand correctly, first the wire from the battery to the starter relay failed.
Then after this was replaced, you were trying to figure out why it would not start. I think this can be figured out. It will help to draw out the wiring to include the voltage regulator and the ignition. I still think its likely alternator or alternator wiring related.

PS. Those Mymopar wiring diagrams didn't seem to quite match what I'm seeing in your photos. Turns out those are not factory diagrams. I have no idea where they got them from - something aftermarket like Chiltons or Mitchels I guess. If its the same as the late 60s, the real diagrams are probably in '71 Plymouth service manual (which is also on that website).


To answer this question, the red wire from the battery lug to the starter relay did not fail.

The wire from the starter relay to the bulkhead connector did fail. The fuseable link wire insulation melted off but did not sacrifice itself in this case.


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365505
09/04/17 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted By Andrewh
https://www.amazon.com/50-Female-Terminals-2084421-2962447/dp/B0040CU11M

https://www.amazon.com/Packard-Male-Gaug...9BYT9ED6A1SXCMY

cheaper than napa if you are ordering on line.

or del city or
probably a few other places.

I only use napa when I need 1 or 2 and have to have it today.

not sure I would order a new bulkhead connector.
you can patch up or by pass the one you have.

taking it apart and redoing all the connectors is good enough.


Ok cool, I will try to get by without having to get the bulkhead connector first.

Also, a question in response to a recent suggestion from mattax,

"Based on the info so far, I'd start with checking the alternator's battery stud for a short to ground and work back from there."

how would I go about doing this? Would all of the wires have to be hooked up first, or just take off the alternator and have it bench tested?

Sorry for so many questions, this is a weak area for me and I am learning a lot, thanks!

Last edited by eightlitermopar; 09/04/17 11:09 PM.

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365519
09/04/17 11:37 PM
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the 147/145 terminals are the right ones (packard 56 1/4" brass male/female). I would get the bulkhead as it would be to your advantage to have everything fresh to start with but with that being said it might be a good plan for you to purchase a complete harness which may or may not already include the bulkhead halves (wait for advice on that & the harness replacement itself). It just might be much easier for you to drop in a new harness. I rewired a 65 dart from scratch piece by piece wire by wire! & I would not want to do it again & it was a bare bones machine compared to later stuff! under hood was easy/under dash was extremely time consuming. An alt main stud to short to ground is rare but it kinda seems like/appears that there was a dead short or near dead short (very high draw) in the main large wire circuit from batt to inside/to ammeter/to welded splice/to bulkhead again/out to alt but maybe it did not go that far & the farthest reach of the burned wires away from the power source (the battery) is where it grounded but it seemed to be progressing pretty far along that main wire circuit (that'd be something for you to check). to check the alt main stud, take off the round terminal from it & ohm the stud to the alt case & should be no continuity. EDIT I set the old harness on the kitchen floor & started the new one right next to it. I duplicated one circuit then cut it off of the old one till the new one took shape & the old one dissappeared & I crimped/soldered every terminal & used larger wires on some circuits.

Last edited by RapidRobert; 09/05/17 12:09 AM.

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365540
09/05/17 12:07 AM
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The NAPA terminals you linked to shows them to be for 14-16 gage. You'll need the next size up, 12-10 gage.
Also, my personal preference has been for one that are coated with tin.

I bought mine from Waytek Wire. More than I thought I'd ever need. Then this past winter-spring I ended up going through the entire harness on my '85 Grand Wagoneer. I was glad to have most of what I needed.

I'm not 100% sure on the crimper. It looks right but check to be sure its for "open barrel terminals."

Quote:

Ok cool, I will try to get by without having to get the bulkhead connector first.
If you do this, make sure the terminals click in place. (I chased a charging problem for a couple years on that wagoneer until I found the culprit was the alternator terminal not retaining in the connector.)

Quote:

"Based on the info so far, I'd start with checking the alternator's battery stud for a short to ground and work back from there."

how would I go about doing this? Would all of the wires have to be hooked up first, or just take off the alternator and have it bench tested?

Sorry for so many questions, this is a weak area for me and I am learning a lot, thanks!

Leave the alternator on for now. Just check what's there.
If there's no connection to ground, as it should be, then see if any of the remaining wires short to ground. If nothing, then you'll have to come back to checking for shorts to ground after repairs.

Do you have multi-meter? Measure the resistance between the alternator's output (Bat) terminal and ground. The alternator casting or any engine bolt will do for ground.
If you have test light, see if there is continutity.
In both cases, touch one lead to the Bat terminal and the other to ground.
If the circuit is closed (light goes on, or there is a low resistance reading) then there is a ground short.
If so, disconnect the Heavy Wire from the Bat terminal.
Test the alternator alone with one lead on the Bat terminal and the other to ground.

Last edited by Mattax; 09/05/17 12:11 AM. Reason: improved response :)
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Mattax] #2365559
09/05/17 12:36 AM
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Let me see if I understand the sequence.

First you install the battery and before even turning the key, the wire attached to the fusible link fails. (Not the one with the ? mark.)

You replace the failed wire with the red wire the arrows are pointing to.
When the key was turned to start, the starter turns over but it won't start. The lights do work. Then maybe you put it in run and jump the starter while checking for spark from coil wire to ground?

During this testing, you notice smoke and find the battery and alternator feeds have burned.

IMG_0643-question.jpg
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365577
09/05/17 12:57 AM
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An alternative to the bulkhead repair is not using it for the alternator and battery feeds. Run those wires straight through the firewall using a grommet.
Shown in the diagram below originally from NachoRT.

8 gage wire is probably overkill for your situation. With 10 or 12 it will be easier to make good connections.

Rewire69RT-spliced.jpg
Last edited by Mattax; 09/05/17 01:37 AM. Reason: add comment on the 8 gage
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Mattax] #2365588
09/05/17 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted By Mattax
Let me see if I understand the sequence.

First you install the battery and before even turning the key, the wire attached to the fusible link fails. (Not the one with the ? mark.)

You replace the failed wire with the red wire the arrows are pointing to.
When the key was turned to start, the starter turns over but it won't start. The lights do work. Then maybe you put it in run and jump the starter while checking for spark from coil wire to ground?

During this testing, you notice smoke and find the battery and alternator feeds have burned.


Since the battery is in the trunk, it took a moment for me to realize there was a smoke show coming from the front of the car.

I thought it was the single wire from the starter relay as indicated. Once I replaced that wire from the starter relay, there was no more smoke but no spark.

Last edited by eightlitermopar; 09/05/17 01:25 AM.

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365592
09/05/17 01:34 AM
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OK. It all makes sense now. The connection to the battery was fixed, and that was good enough to trip the starter relay and turn on lights.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Mattax] #2365596
09/05/17 01:42 AM
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Quote:
The NAPA terminals you linked to shows them to be for 14-16 gage. You'll need the next size up, 12-10 gage.
Correct, some of the circuits need to be the bigger size.


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365658
09/05/17 09:34 AM
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My suggestion about replace the bulkhead is because I can see more damage than just the burnt cavity itself, Several areas broken due the age, not related with this short.

Since you got burnt the cavities and these terminals are weak no matter what AND the original Mopar alts are poor output level at iddle I would advice consider upgrade the alt for a better output unit ( able to source around 45-50 amps iddling ). This is a tipical failure from stock disposition, poor alts what burnt these packard terminals and overheats everything around. Run the wires straight through the firewall will save the weakness of the packard terminals for the charging loads when reving up a pooor iddle output alt

If you make that you can:

-Forgett the packard terminals since we are telling to buy to replace the ones burnt... no need to buy them. Remove the old wiring from the old bulkhead clean terminals and relocate them on the new one,

-despite the new engine harness plug. If just got damaged the black wire location just forget about that. Clean the rest of terminals thought. Remove the existant black wire at engine harness.

-No need to splice two new wires into the man splice inside the cab. Just run the section between the main splice and ammeter with the same 12 gauge wire or maybe 10 straight to the solice if you want. The new wire to the alt can be attached straight to the ammeter stud. You'll be getting two terminals on black side of ammeter, the one from the main splice and the one from alt. This make just one splice job and also a straight recharging path ( if batt got discharged ) between alt and batt without need to go through the splice, Splice will suck just what needs from amm stud.

This is just if you decide to run wires straight through the firewall instead using the stock disposition. On my thread about the alt upgrade ( the first one I posted here ) I suggest the parallel path to this just because if the stock disposition is still good no need to remove them and you could use smaller gauge in parallel path ( 12 or 10 ) , BUT if the original wiring disposition is already burnt these can be removed and just use the paths out of the bulkhead using thicker wires... ( 10 or 8 )


And I still don't gett how is the fuse link wired on starter relay and I can see it in good conditions not burnt! It should burnt way before this damage was done. A fuse link takes its time to burnt, and allways gives time to some damage thought, but not like this!


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: NachoRT74] #2365662
09/05/17 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted By NachoRT74
My suggestion about replace the bulkhead is because I can see more damage than just the burnt cavity itself, Several areas broken due the age, not related with this short.

Since you got burnt the cavities and these terminals are weak no matter what AND the original Mopar alts are poor output level at iddle I would advice consider upgrade the alt for a better output unit ( able to source around 45-50 amps iddling ). This is a tipical failure from stock disposition, poor alts what burnt these packard terminals and overheats everything around. Run the wires straight through the firewall will save the weakness of the packard terminals for the charging loads when reving up a pooor iddle output alt

If you make that you can:

-Forgett the packard terminals since we are telling to buy to replace the ones burnt... no need to buy them. Remove the old wiring from the old bulkhead clean terminals and relocate them on the new one,

-despite the new engine harness plug. If just got damaged the black wire location just forget about that. Clean the rest of terminals thought. Remove the existant black wire at engine harness.

-No need to splice two new wires into the man splice inside the cab. Just run the section between the main splice and ammeter with the same 12 gauge wire or maybe 10 straight to the solice if you want. The new wire to the alt can be attached straight to the ammeter stud. You'll be getting two terminals on black side of ammeter, the one from the main splice and the one from alt. This make just one splice job and also a straight recharging path ( if batt got discharged ) between alt and batt without need to go through the splice, Splice will suck just what needs from amm stud.

This is just if you decide to run wires straight through the firewall instead using the stock disposition. On my thread about the alt upgrade ( the first one I posted here ) I suggest the parallel path to this just because if the stock disposition is still good no need to remove them and you could use smaller gauge in parallel path ( 12 or 10 ) , BUT if the original wiring disposition is already burnt these can be removed and just use the paths out of the bulkhead using thicker wires... ( 10 or 8 )


And I still don't gett how is the fuse link wired on starter relay and I can see it in good conditions not burnt! It should burnt way before this damage was done. A fuse link takes its time to burnt, and allways gives time to some damage thought, but not like this!


My picture is an updated one, that is a new fuseable link. The picture is how it the old one looked. The insulation was cooked off.

I was thinking, I may replace the bulkhead because it is over 40 years old and pretty brittle and abused. Regarding a new bulkhead, do I just pull out the old terminals and push them into the new one? I guess I can destroy the old one to get them if they are melted in there.

IMG_0631.JPG
Last edited by eightlitermopar; 09/05/17 10:15 AM.

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365728
09/05/17 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted By eightlitermopar
Ok, ran out of daylight but here are some photos that may be able to help us out. First picture is the battery compartment in the trunk.

i am NOT a fan of those battery terminals that just sandwich the cable between a strap and the terminal. they promote corrosion to wick into the cable, plus only provide connection [properly] to the top and bottom of the cable. you need to source a crimp style, solder style, or a furl style set of terminal ends, then protect the connection with a good quality heat shrink, preferably the marine grade with the built in "sealant". plus, in doing so, it will look more professional. just my opinion, but nothing bothers me more than seeing those cheap battery terminals on an otherwise super nice engine bay. i have cured many an electrical gremlin by replacing that kind of terminal in my 50+ years of playing with cars.
beer

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365735
09/05/17 12:41 PM
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Updated the probably route of short.

Wires can oxidize and even corrode under the insulation. My guess is this happens due to moisture wicking along the strands under certain conditions. Electricity travels on the surface of the wires so oxidation and breakdown on the surface would cause resistance to flow.

1Route_of_Power_that_Fried_wires.jpg
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365747
09/05/17 01:02 PM
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You problem is not oxidation or corrosion.

That would cause a localized overheating problem.

It's a short.

Find the short.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Mattax] #2365750
09/05/17 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Regarding a new bulkhead, do I just pull out the old terminals and push them into the new one? I guess I can destroy the old one to get them if they are melted in there.


The big bulkhead connector has the female terminals. They are released with a small flat tool. I've used cotter pins, small screw drivers and finally bought the correct tool.

Again borrowed from the Civilian Jeep forum..
This shows the locking tab that must be released.


This shows the tool in action:


I have the multi-tool shown in that picture. Disadvantage over a single prong tool is that the extra prongs sometimes get in the way. My '67 bulkhead is a little different but similar enough I think the double prong gets in the way with the bulkead.

These came from Basic Wiring 101 page 1.
If you go there and have a slow connection, just know that site has lots of ads etc. No-script is one way to minimize the extra graphic downloads.
CJ wiring is a little different than SJs and our mopars so you can skip the CJ specific stuff. He mentions Packard 59 connectors for the bulkheads. I don't know if that applies to any of our mopars, but if you see slightly larger terminals, then that's what they are.

Nacho suggested an alternative to butt connector splice is crimping two wires onto the ammeters ring terminal. This avoids extra connections. Done properly, it will look like this.

At least on my '67 Barracuda, that's how Chrysler joined the voltage regulator wire to the Ignition Run wire at the ballast resistor.
To do this will require an ring terminal (for the ammeter) with large enough wire capacity. If you have trouble doing this well, then butt connector is better. Basically, use whatever method you can accomplish that provides good a connection. Every connection is location for problems, so generally the strategy is to minimize connections. But one bad connection is worse than two good ones.

Last edited by Mattax; 09/05/17 01:34 PM.
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Supercuda] #2365759
09/05/17 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted By Supercuda
...
It's a short.

Find the short.


Yes. That is the source of the problem. I should have made those ? bigger. Whether its chafed insulation on a wire or internal to something, somewhere was a path to ground. Electricity is always seeking to find a way to lower voltage.

With respect to the alternator output that Nacho mentioned. This may or may not be a longer term issue depending on how you use the car. The ammeter will show whether the alternator is providing sufficient power at idle. If you drive a lot in situations where the car is idling at lights on, or with AC, or heater fan runnng, that's when the situation he was describing most commonly happens.

Last edited by Mattax; 09/05/17 01:28 PM.
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Mattax] #2365760
09/05/17 01:20 PM
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X3, we need to find the smoking gun here.


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365770
09/05/17 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted By eightlitermopar

My picture is an updated one, that is a new fuseable link. The picture is how it the old one looked. The insulation was cooked off.


amazed how it took so long to burnt giving time to burn the ammeter wires

Originally Posted By eightlitermopar

I was thinking, I may replace the bulkhead because it is over 40 years old and pretty brittle and abused. Regarding a new bulkhead, do I just pull out the old terminals and push them into the new one? I guess I can destroy the old one to get them if they are melted in there.


yes that's my advice, using or not the original ammeter paths through the bulkhead

Mattax already explained how to remove the terminals, but destroy the old bulkhead is an option too LOL... maybe faster and won't be dealing with the tabs, being still on original angle to get them inserted on the new one.

Terminals can be cleaned from grease and then soak them on a vinegar and salt solution for couple of hours. Then clean and soak in again on baking soda to eliminate the acids of the vinegar. This will clean the sulfating areas and rust

As explained before, you can reuse your old engine and forward lighting harnesses plugs if you won't be reinstalling the original ammeter paths running through the bulkhead.

If you will reinstall the original paths, will need the engine harness plug and mostly sure the forward lighting one too.

Last edited by NachoRT74; 09/05/17 01:53 PM.

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Mattax] #2365771
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Originally Posted By Mattax
Originally Posted By Supercuda
...
It's a short.

Find the short.


Yes. That is the source of the problem. I should have made those ? bigger. Whether its chafed insulation on a wire or internal to something, somewhere was a path to ground. Electricity is always seeking to find a way to lower voltage.

With respect to the alternator output that Nacho mentioned. This may or may not be a longer term issue depending on how you use the car. The ammeter will show whether the alternator is providing sufficient power at idle. If you drive a lot in situations where the car is idling at lights on, or with AC, or heater fan runnng, that's when the situation he was describing most commonly happens.


agreed... find the short, but can be found after the wiring fixing just not hooking the batt after the fix, but making an ohm testing to ground on these wiring net

aaand, well, I'm looking forward on the alt upgrade as Mattax mentioned to be safe on regular use with the equipment on car

Mattax made the draw splicing the alt wire out of the bulkhead straight to the splice section, then an extra splice from there up to amm. If running the wire out of bulkhead ( not making a stock disposition ) I'd just make one splice between main splice and amm, and run the alt wire straight to the amm. This will save the batt recharge load from run through three splices on its run, will go straight through the ammeter... but, that's me.

( although the main one original wasn't a splice but actually a one piece run with peleed of cover and spliced the rest on it )

you can also disassembly the main splice and run the straight wire, peel off the wire without cut and attach the headlights ( black traced ), fuse box and ign switch ( Red ones ) from the existant splice into a brand new splice like factory did

Last edited by NachoRT74; 09/05/17 02:00 PM.

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: NachoRT74] #2365848
09/05/17 03:40 PM
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Ok, I have most of the dash wires buttoned up and fixed. The ammeter wires are attached but obviously not to the bulkhead connector.

Could a short on the engine side of the harness cause this kind of short? If so, wouldn't the black wire to the alternator be cooked as well? Are we guessing the short is on the engine side?

I am trying to figure out what my next step would be. As far as tracing wires for a short. I will use my test light, hook up the battery ground and my light to positive and start tracing from my "battery stud" under the hood back.


Last edited by eightlitermopar; 09/05/17 04:11 PM.

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365876
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Originally Posted By eightlitermopar


Could a short on the engine side of the harness cause this kind of short? If so, wouldn't the black wire to the alternator be cooked as well? Are we guessing the short is on the engine side?



Looks to me in your pictures that the black wire is melted too, it may not be melted all the way back to the alternator, but that wire is not hooked only to the alternator It feeds the fusebox as well.

In order for it to melt the current had to flow thru it, so yeah, your problem is somewhere on the engine side of the ammeter, assuming stock wiring setup.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365880
09/05/17 04:29 PM
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There are people waaay smarter than me responding to this post, if I'm wrong maybe someone will correct me... but a method I have used to chase shorts is to disconnect the positive battery terminal and hook the test light clamp to the cable then touch the positive post with the test light probe (with the key off, doors shut, trunk shut, in other words, anything that would draw power has to be de-energized) if the test light illuminates you still have a short somewhere, for fused shorts I remove fuses one at a time until the test light no longer illuminates, thus at least isolating the system with the short, in your case I would leave the positive cable disconnected and hook up the wires in the engine compartment, hook the test light clamp to the positive cable then touch the positive post of the battery with the test light probe if it illuminates you still have a short, then one at a time disconnect the wires you just connected in the engine compartment until the test light goes out. Hope this helps. up


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Supercuda] #2365898
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Ok, I am making little progress. thanks for your patience everyone, seriously I appreciate it.

So this is where I am. My battery is in the trunk, and I didn't want to drag wires to the front of the car, so I got a lawnmower battery and placed up front on the radiator support. I hooked jumper cable (negative) and clamped the other end of the cable (negative) to a bolt holding the radiator.

IMG_0651.JPG

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365902
09/05/17 04:53 PM
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positive side got the test light, but now.....naturally anywhere I touch on the engine block or frame.....the light turns on.

At first I got excited because it lit up with the starter wire from the relay.....until I realized it was just completing the circuit through the engine block, starter wire, back to the starter relay.

The key is to just trace and check the WIRES and see if they light up, correct?

IMG_0652.JPG
Last edited by eightlitermopar; 09/05/17 04:58 PM.

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365907
09/05/17 05:14 PM
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If I'm thinking right...with the positive cable disconnected from the battery the test light should be between the positive cable and the positive post, everything should be de-energized...the light should not come on, if it does disconnect one wire at a time until it goes out, when the light goes out that would indicate your power drain/shorted circuit.


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: RapidusMaximus] #2365910
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Originally Posted By RapidusMaximus
If I'm thinking right...with the positive cable disconnected from the battery the test light should be between the positive cable and the positive post, everything should be de-energized...the light should not come on, if it does disconnect one wire at a time until it goes out, when the light goes out that would indicate your power drain/shorted circuit.


Are you talking about disconnecting one wire at a time along the wire harness? Here is where I am. The engine side harness is not connected to the firewall bulkhead at all, yet I am getting light when probing the ballast resistor, the horns and the alternator wire. I disconnected them from the actual devices to so the power is through the wires.

I also probed the bulkhead for kicks and giggles and have SEVERAL that light up.

EDIT and UPDATE: Started checking wires from the furthest away from the firewall and started probing. Horn wires lit up, alternator wires lit up, etc.

Long story short. One little wire from my tachometer had burned through and was exposed against the intake manifold. this is connected to the coil which was lighting up. Short story: Tachometer is now gone. I have been meaning to do that for a while anyway.

However, a wire to the distributor still lights up. See picture. The female end that connects to the ignition control box on the firewall.



IMG_0658.JPG
Last edited by eightlitermopar; 09/05/17 06:51 PM.

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365952
09/05/17 06:54 PM
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The ignition control module on the firewall.

When removed, the pin indicated still lights up. Perhaps this is a ground and is supposed to light up for this test?

IMG_0657.JPGIMG_0659.JPG

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365953
09/05/17 06:56 PM
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Ignition control module removed and visually inspected. Looks good initially, back is not melted or bubbled like it got hot. I have had several of these fail over the years.

IMG_0662.JPGIMG_0661.JPG

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365955
09/05/17 06:58 PM
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now the voltage regulator. There is a pin that I am getting a weak light from. Perhaps this is also a ground and is supposed to light up for this test?

IMG_0660.JPG

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365966
09/05/17 07:27 PM
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Here is my voltage regulator test. I think it is shot, reading only 0.55 ohms. I think normal is 1.75 ish? The other picture is the back side which appears it got a little hot and bubbly?

Could this be part of the smoking gun?

IMG_0663.JPGIMG_0665.JPG

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365986
09/05/17 07:54 PM
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Quote:
The key is to just trace and check the WIRES and see if they light up, correct?
It sounds like you are checking for wire continuity. Really what you want to look for is short to ground. I did explain that (or tried) on the previous page https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbt...tml#Post2365540 but that assumed a self powered light.
So one lead on the Battery Plus, Other lead on the Alternator Bat terminal.*
I beleive that's about all that can be tested until repairs are made.

As far as the various wires go, even when everything is perfect some will show continuity and some won't. It depends on whether they are switched or not. Download the shop manual and if its easier, start with Nacho's or my '67 diagram. Draw in or erase whatever is different.

Since you have some modified stuff there, such as the Chrysler electronic ignition, you can draw that in too. If its too messy or confusing, drawing the ignition circuit seperate from the charging circuit. That's why my posted '67 diagram shows points. I have a seperate diagram for the ignition circuit with the modifications I made for the MSD 6T.

This will help both trouble shoot and making repairs. After all, why is that terminal holder empty (20). What is the blue wire with trace? What is the heavy pink wire with trace?
For chasing questions about whether something should light up, the diagram will show what circuits are from the main junction, and which ones are only on when ignition switch is in start, run, or accessory. Most will have fuses. A few won't but have circuit breakers.


*edit: Gosh since you have a multimeter, just use that. There should be infinite resistance between alternator output (Bat) and ground.


Last edited by Mattax; 09/05/17 08:02 PM.
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Mattax] #2365991
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Originally Posted By Mattax


*edit: Gosh since you have a multimeter, just use that. There should be infinite resistance between alternator output (Bat) and ground.


I am still figuring out the multimeter too whistling I really am a hot mess LOL!

So, just like I checked my voltage regulator, just check alternator battery stud to ground and it should have infinite resistance, is this correct?


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2365996
09/05/17 08:10 PM
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DONT check batt positive to ground with an Ohmmeter!!! You'll fry meter or blow it's fuse.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2366003
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Voltage Regulator.
Here's how it works.
Inside the alternator there is an electo-magnet which creates a Field.
The voltage regulator controls the power going to the electro-magnet. If you look at the '67 Charge Circuit, you'll see just one wire from the Voltage regulator power to the Field. The circuit is completed by the negative grounded to the alternator body. This style voltage regulator controls power on the hot side.

Now take the '67 diagram and remove the field's negative connection to ground. Instead run a wire to the Voltage regulator. This is what your Voltage Regulator is controlling. It's comparing the voltage at the ignition wire, but controlling the ground.

The Alternator
Current is induced by the spinning magnets. It flows out when there is a lower voltage anyplace the alternator's output wire may be attached to. It should not be in contact with ground except through operating equipment.

I think that's all correct.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #2366008
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Originally Posted By Pacnorthcuda
DONT check batt positive to ground with an Ohmmeter!!! You'll fry meter or blow it's fuse.



There is no battery connected currently. That is something stupid I would probably do though.... runaway


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2366012
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Originally Posted By eightlitermopar

I am still figuring out the multimeter too whistling I really am a hot mess LOL!

So, just like I checked my voltage regulator, just check alternator battery stud to ground and it should have infinite resistance, is this correct?


Yes. That is correct!
PacNorth is correct that Ohmeters can not be used on a hot circuit. However your charge circuit seems rather disconnected! But yes, your best with the battery disconnected.

If you later want to check for voltage drop, that gets done on a hot circuit. The 1948 and '53 Master Tech booklets explain how to do volatge drop tests.

And as far as a mess, I dunno about that. Slow down if you need. Take notes, even if you toss 'em later, for most of us they help with this complicated stuff. For wiring, my notes are usually drawings. The messy versions I don't post, even when I keep 'em. wink

Last edited by Mattax; 09/05/17 08:30 PM.
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Mattax] #2366025
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Ok, so just to recap for the day before I take a break from all this.

-I checked for continuity on the engine side of the wire harness.

-I did find a small gauge fried tachometer wire that ran to the ignition coil. That tachometer and wire was eliminated.

-Checked the voltage regulator (which I assume is bad) possible cause of problem?

-Electronic ignition module wire that connects to distributor has continuity, probably a ground.

So for my next step, connect all the wires so I can check for ground to short? If I understand correctly, the wires have to be all connected in order to check that.

*Without simply connecting the battery and seeing what wire fries first, of course ozbbq


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2366119
09/05/17 11:24 PM
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so I guess either check works. multimeter or test light.

multimeter doesn't need the battery connected. So it might be safer.

they way I described gives you an instant read instead of having to look at the meter. so I prefer it as faster to check circuits.

you should get a light at the alt case, but not the big stud on the back.

unless it is grounded. then I would pull the alt and have it tested as well.

if you follow the circuit path, you have power at the test light to power. It would be like touching it back to the pos terminal on the battery. nothing should happen.
IF it lights, then you have a path back to ground.

In some cases, that might be correct, like I don't know about the 2 field vr or the electronic ignition.

in others this should not happen.

The relay stud that normally connects to the battery should not light up. again like touching the end of the test light back to the pos of the battery. it shouldn't complete the circuit.

if you pull all the wiring from the relay I would check each one to find which one causes it to light up.

my way you don't really need to plug it all back into the bulkhead. Just make sure the ends are connected to whatever they go to. touch each wire in the connector and see if it lights.
if it does trace it or disconnect the end and see if it still lights.
if it does the wire has a break in it and it is going to ground.
if it stops lighting, then check whatever was at the other end to see if it is supposed to be grounded.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2366279
09/06/17 10:21 AM
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Damn! Too lazy at this moment to read with datail every post LOL,

Think on this. EVERY device in car is indeed a controlled and potential short. A Bulb is a short, a regulator is also somehow a short etc, just at diff values what makes them more a Long than a Short LOL (j/k)... don't check the devices going to ground. The short you got is a direct wire to ground short. By the wires affected, you only could get a short on red and black wires or related items... this means, black wire between alt and bulkhead or alt stud, red wire between starter relay and bulkhead or starter relay stud, red and black wires between bulkhead and ammeter... or even Ammeter itself with cluster housing.

Any other short around will burnt that wire first.

A short like that where the big gauge wires where affected and none else, it means was a straight short to them. If none other wire was affected, then you didn't have a short anywhere but on those. A short on another wire was give you a burnt sign way before these two red and black. You got the short straight in there.

I'm agreed with has being posted about the short should come somewhere between ammeter and alternator because if it was between amm and fuse link, the black wire was never burnt.

Last edited by NachoRT74; 09/06/17 01:14 PM.

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2366298
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Aside that, all those devices are just energized with key in RUN, but not straight from batt. The short came into the batt source network.

There is a chance the short is now gone with all the wiring movement.


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2366301
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Originally Posted By eightlitermopar


However, a wire to the distributor still lights up. See picture. The female end that connects to the ignition control box on the firewall.




For your peace... it is on that way. Is a good signal the ECU is good. One of the pins of ECU is straight to ground and matches that wire, so with a test light, the light will light on

IMG_0878.JPG

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2366308
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And I'm positivelly toward to this.... the black ammeter wire was already damaged close to bulkhead on cab side, due the tipical mopar overheat fail over a poor iddle capacity alt. This overheat melted the wire cover allong the years until get it naked and SOMEHOW this naked wire section grounded around with anything on cab just right now... and this was the final result.

I wouldn't overthink more this. That's my conclusion.

The melted engine harness plug looks old enough to get this conclusion, not a fresh melt. The short was the next fail after this melt

Fix the wiring, get a better output alt and you are done.

Set the new wiring out of the bulkhead straight to amm studs through the firewall with a grommet, and replace the amm-splice path with a new wire. Forget about the splice to bulkhead wire section. The amm stud will become on a power junction... just need to be clean and tight.

You can use this kind of plugs ( picture attached ) to be able to disconect the main wires on engine side. Cut a long piece to reach the ammeter to engine bay side keeping the plug on engine bay side , and the short piece plug to splice in there the new engine side wires...

These quick disconect links are available on 10 and even 8 gauge wire, from 12" up to 24", 48" long. There are several vendors around and several setups you can match your needs, some are already cut to be spliced.

The pictured wire is the one ( in hands now ) I will be mostly sure using. 10 gauge I think 48". At this moment I don't have quick disconect plugs at this moment in my setup which I hate. i like the stock versatility to disconect everything, so this will be my next upgrade. Mostly sure will be eliminating also the stock engine bay side wires from starter relay and alt, but will keep in place the underdash wires section ( in my case no need to remove those actually ), or maybe just will remove the red wire betwen bulkhead and starter relay just to make easier the fuse link splice using just one 14 gauge fuse link, instead one fuse link for each wire, the parallel path amd the stock one. Two parallel fuse link can take FOREVER to burn in a short

Also have a 8 gauge I think 24" but not sure if 24" will reach the ammeter from the engine bay side. Couldn't find 8 gauge 48" quick link harness




IMG_0507.JPG
Last edited by NachoRT74; 09/06/17 04:43 PM.

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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: NachoRT74] #2366316
09/06/17 12:00 PM
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Yes. Agreed. This the other scenario. Without checking as we have suggested, the truth will be unknown. Can't really help any more at this point. All the information to solve the mystery and prevent future problems is here or in the links. It may take a a few rereads and some homework, but its all there.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2366325
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Just edited a bit my last reply, about the wire I will be using in my own car


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Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: NachoRT74] #2366355
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Good detective work there Nacho, that is a very good likelyhood, that it full fielded or near FF'd, enough to melt the insulation in that main circuit then it dead shorted. Now that I think about it when my '66 dart full fielded for awhile the insulation was badly shriveled & I did not notice a problem till I popped the hood later for something else & saw the carnage. I musta missed the ammeter reading. It ran fine & did not dead short but it didn't seem too far from it from the looks of things.


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2366368
09/06/17 01:18 PM
09/06/17 01:18 PM
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Valencia, España
NachoRT74 Offline
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just found this to make your own design and custom wires... IF you don't want to make them by yourself whcih is way cheaper as far yo0u get the toolings and materials

https://powerwerx.com/single-conductor-custom-cable

also dual

https://powerwerx.com/dual-conductor-custom-cable

you can make a new fresh wiring between alt and batt going through the ammeter with quick disconect wires in the middle meeting your needs.

separated wires

1/4" eyelet for ammeter ends

3 feets lenght 10 gauge, one red one black.

Black wire with 75 amps powerpole end
the red one with 45 powerpole end

one extra 45 amps powepole end and 3/8" eyelet terminal for the new 14 gauge fuse link

alt black wire with 75 amps powerpole end, 5 or 6 feet ( which ever the lenght is the engine bay need for the alt, I don't have the measure ) wire and 3/8" eyelet terminal

grommet on firewall...

done.

wrench up grin

just an idea

and of course A GOOD ALT!!!! if money is not a problem Tuff stuff 100 amps alt is my sugestion which is my dreamed alt ( which I can't afford by now )

EDITING ONCE MORE...

also the 1/4" eyelet terminal and bare end, maybe 1 feet long or a bit more, black wire ( 12 gauge is enough like factory ) to feed the factory splice into the underdash harness

and forgot you got a 71, where the starter relay is at a side of the batt... so will need the powerpole end extension to reach from firewall up to fuse link ( maybe 4 feet long ? )... or get the amm/starter relay section that long instead getting a powerpole plug leaving the firewall... maybe 6 feet long ?

Last edited by NachoRT74; 09/06/17 01:49 PM.

With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: RapidRobert] #2366377
09/06/17 01:30 PM
09/06/17 01:30 PM
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p d'ro Offline
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Originally Posted By RapidRobert
Good detective work there Nacho, that is a very good likelyhood, that it full fielded or near FF'd, enough to melt the insulation in that main circuit then it dead shorted. Now that I think about it when my '66 dart full fielded for awhile the insulation was badly shriveled & I did not notice a problem till I popped the hood later for something else & saw the carnage. I musta missed the ammeter reading. It ran fine & did not dead short but it didn't seem too far from it from the looks of things.

Great work guys. Hopefully this works for him.
So what will the ammeter show if it is starting to develop this issue? My battery shows normal voltage when running (between 13.7-14 V), but the ammeter rises far to the "plus" side on acceleration no matter how long the car is running.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2366388
09/06/17 01:52 PM
09/06/17 01:52 PM
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Valencia, España
NachoRT74 Offline
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p d'ro ( what kind of nickname is that ? LOL )

read the link about alt and wiring upgrades I posted first, or Mattax links which also takes to my thread about, with more information from him

have you got some extra accesory being sourced straight from batt ? thats a big NO tsk when you got ammeter. The charging reading can be due is sourcing the extra devides on batt pole and not really charging. That add strees on wiring and bulkhead terminals. EVERYTHING must be feeded from the alt side when you got an ammeter on a car


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2366432
09/06/17 02:52 PM
09/06/17 02:52 PM
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Phila. Pa.
Mattax Offline
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Mostly what I did was some editing of the English and diagrams.
P d'ro, Read the explanation and you should be able to figure out where the problem is. If you have questions, maybe start a new thread; we're happy to help. Understanding the Charge Circuit

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2366437
09/06/17 03:06 PM
09/06/17 03:06 PM
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Valencia, España
NachoRT74 Offline
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yeap, well... my english just need to get better LOL


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Mattax] #2366457
09/06/17 03:43 PM
09/06/17 03:43 PM
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p d'ro Offline
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Originally Posted By Mattax
Mostly what I did was some editing of the English and diagrams.
P d'ro, Read the explanation and you should be able to figure out where the problem is. If you have questions, maybe start a new thread; we're happy to help. Understanding the Charge Circuit

Will do guys. Not sure about the terminal draw. Will check.
I have been following this thread closely as I do have a new engine harness, but an original alternator and ammeter so the tips on proper crimping and the wiring bypass are excellent.
To the op, are you going to keep your ammeter or bypass and go with a voltmeter?
How hard was it to clean your bulkhead terminals with the doexit? Was it difficult to pull of the cowl bulkhead connection? I am afraid to torque on mine as it seems fragile.
Keep us up to date here as we are all interested. Can't wait until you ID this short.
I actually will use these crimping tools to update my original '70 Bronco wiring.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2366477
09/06/17 04:38 PM
09/06/17 04:38 PM
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NachoRT74 Offline
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just two 7/16" flanged nuts on engine bay side and the bulkhead will be loosen from firewall ( if we talk about 71/74 B or any E body )

earliers and all A bodies are clipped to the firewall, also easy to release from engine bay side


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: NachoRT74] #2366483
09/06/17 04:46 PM
09/06/17 04:46 PM
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North Central Florida
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eightlitermopar Offline OP
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thanks for all the help guys. My gut still tells me this was a short on the engine side OR under the dash just on the main circuit for some reason.

I have finally gotten a feel for the OHM meter and will do some more checking.

BUT I will probably go with what Nacho said, clean the terminals I have, make sure they are sound, and just wire the red and black directly through the firewall. I like that wire set up by the way! Very slick. I will probably do that.

I will keep you posted, but it may not be until next week sometime until there is an update. Apparently we have a category 5 rainstorm coming. My wife thinks that preparing for the storm is more important than chasing wires and electrical shorts in my shop. I will have to agree with her.

I will give updates as soon as I can. Thanks again guys!!! I have learned a lot already!


Mopar or no car
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2366488
09/06/17 04:58 PM
09/06/17 04:58 PM
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NachoRT74 Offline
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Originally Posted By eightlitermopar
Apparently we have a category 5 rainstorm coming.


Apparently ?




if rings your door bell, just to let you know ( and feel in confidence ), it calls IRMA

LOL


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: NachoRT74] #2366574
09/06/17 07:28 PM
09/06/17 07:28 PM
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North Central Florida
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eightlitermopar Offline OP
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Yeah, big storm coming. I work at the hospital so I may be sleeping there for a while depending on how bad it gets.


Anyway, in an effort to rule out any weak links, I may have found my "no spark" culprit? or at least one of them? What do you think of this Ballast Resistor?

IMG_0667.JPG

Mopar or no car
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2366593
09/06/17 08:04 PM
09/06/17 08:04 PM
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Andrewh Offline
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no, on start, it bypasses the ballast.
it would only be bad if it started then died when you released the key.

Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Andrewh] #2366642
09/06/17 09:47 PM
09/06/17 09:47 PM
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eightlitermopar Offline OP
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Originally Posted By Andrewh
no, on start, it bypasses the ballast.
it would only be bad if it started then died when you released the key.


Oh ok, got it. Thanks! up


Mopar or no car
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2366667
09/06/17 10:28 PM
09/06/17 10:28 PM
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Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
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Quote:
we have a category 5 rainstorm coming. My wife thinks that preparing for the storm is more important than chasing wires and electrical shorts in my shop.
Listen to the wife (just this once!). On removeing the brass terminals, the male ones, one leg is unsupported & it can be hard to see which one it is when they are installed in the bulkhead (tho comparing shapes of the new to old might ans that, not sure), so press on both legs & the one that gives, move it in a bit till you can easily pull the wire/terminal out of the back side of the bulkhead, no need to force it, when it is moved sideways in the right amt it will slide back out fairly easy. On the female ones, look at the bulkhead front cavity & on one long side of the bulkhead rectangle there will be a little hole & stick an eyeglass mini screwdriver in there & depress/flatten out the "tab" that you see in the pics of it (press the screwdriver sideways as opposed to leverageing it at an angle which can crack the bulkhead plastic) & same thing when the terminal is flattened flush it will pull out the back side pretty easy. when reinstalling the new female one, first lift up the tab a bit from flush so when installing & you pull the terminal/wire backwards into the bulkhead you will hear the "snap" when it locks into place. some paste for increased conductiveity might be a good idea, not sure what to recommend.


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: Andrewh] #2367868
09/09/17 12:36 PM
09/09/17 12:36 PM
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NachoRT74 Offline
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Originally Posted By Andrewh
no, on start, it bypasses the ballast.
it would only be bad if it started then died when you released the key.


actually if ballast is damaged won't spark either while cranking because when cranking, the ECU is sourced back through the ballast, not from key.

HOWEVER, a damaged ballast won't get any kind of read at ohmeter. will be INFINTE ohms.... just ------ on screen. It can be better or not, but should work

A ballast like that is mostly sure on 0.5 to 1 ohm rate. If you set the tester scale to 200 will get a more exact reading for the ballast oms rate. 20K is too much to read just 1 ohm

Last edited by NachoRT74; 09/09/17 12:38 PM.

With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2367873
09/09/17 12:43 PM
09/09/17 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted By eightlitermopar


However, a wire to the distributor still lights up. See picture. The female end that connects to the ignition control box on the firewall.




need to ask... is this the dist side plug or engine harness side plug ?

if dist side plug and is on car, thats a bad sign. Both ends must be isolated from chassis, and should get between 150-900 ohms reading, althought tipically goes between 250-320 ohms testing between both leads at plug

if is engine harness side plug, actually the terminal to ground ( 5th pin of ECU ) should be the male not the female. so Should get continuity with chassis being ECU plugged, good ECU, and good grounded.

I never have tested if with a test light the female terminal could get the light on... although very well could be with ign key in RUN. Don't take my words though

Last edited by NachoRT74; 09/09/17 12:46 PM.

With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: NachoRT74] #2370394
09/13/17 10:50 PM
09/13/17 10:50 PM
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North Central Florida
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eightlitermopar Offline OP
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Originally Posted By NachoRT74
Originally Posted By eightlitermopar


However, a wire to the distributor still lights up. See picture. The female end that connects to the ignition control box on the firewall.




need to ask... is this the dist side plug or engine harness side plug ?

if dist side plug and is on car, thats a bad sign. Both ends must be isolated from chassis, and should get between 150-900 ohms reading, althought tipically goes between 250-320 ohms testing between both leads at plug

if is engine harness side plug, actually the terminal to ground ( 5th pin of ECU ) should be the male not the female. so Should get continuity with chassis being ECU plugged, good ECU, and good grounded.

I never have tested if with a test light the female terminal could get the light on... although very well could be with ign key in RUN. Don't take my words though


Hello! We survived the storm and we have power at the house. I haven't been able to tinker with my car much but wanted to give an update. This photo is the wire harness side. I did not actually check the distributor side with the test light.


Mopar or no car
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2370669
09/14/17 12:55 PM
09/14/17 12:55 PM
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Valencia, España
NachoRT74 Offline
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Great you are fine!

the test light can be used on either way, to check for ground or for positive signal.

If checking against ground, on harness side the male end shouldn't light up since that pin goes to ground inside the ECU ( 5th pin )... so on a continuity test should read 0 ohms, but with a test ligh should remain off... of course testing against positive source ( batt pole or alt stud if still conected or any other ) will light on

on male lead... never have made that test nor with test light or multitester on ohms scale. It can get very well somehow a positive source and checking with a test light againts ground, could light up. Dunno if that woould be a good or bad signal.

On dist side plug... if testing with a test light against positive, NEITHER of both terminals should show a light on. That would mean the coil inside is shorted to ground. The pickup coil must be totally isolated from ground.

testing with a multitester on ohms scale between both leads, must read as previouslly posted


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: NachoRT74] #2373445
09/19/17 06:02 PM
09/19/17 06:02 PM
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North Central Florida
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eightlitermopar Offline OP
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Ok! Finally got some time with the Roadrunner. Long story short, it runs. I started by connecting/cleaning/fixing wires from the starter relay and along the path of electricity.

One step done, checked the wires, hooked up battery. I had jumper cables connected to the battery so I could disconnect them quickly if something started to fry.

I did this until I was at the end of the wire harness and power was present.

The only thing I changed was the voltage regulator. I just had a "gut feeling" to replace it. I am out $20. I am not sure if it would even contribute to my problem, but I changed it anyway.

Anyway, car runs great. battery will be disconnected or removed any time I am not driving it from now on. I will start another thread regarding upgraded alternators.

Thanks so much for all your contributions to this thread. I may not have narrowed down the dead short but I learned A LOT in the process. Thanks!

eightlitermopar


Mopar or no car
Re: fried harness wires. Why? [Re: eightlitermopar] #2373539
09/19/17 08:35 PM
09/19/17 08:35 PM
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Andrewh Offline
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glad you are back and ok.
Sorry you didn't find the actual problem, but glad it is all working now.

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