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Re: Lets talk AFR's for high speed cruise in a 496... [Re: 67Charger] #2311290
05/25/17 11:25 PM
05/25/17 11:25 PM
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Phila. Pa.
Mattax Offline
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Timing and fuel go together. Changing the density changes the burn rate.
Drop the vacuum advance (or equivalent) when the load gets high enough to start adding fuel back in. see the link I posted above for the curve.

Consider putting the carb back on. Then use your MAP, TPS, rpm and WBO2 to log the characteristics. Since that was a reasonably decent setup; from that should be able to make baseline that can be converted to tables when you go back to EFI.

Re: Lets talk AFR's for high speed cruise in a 496... [Re: Mattax] #2311342
05/26/17 12:58 AM
05/26/17 12:58 AM
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AFR's that high would scare me on an endurance application with out knowing what the EGT's are doing.

Been around a lot of high performance marine engines for years and I don't know how long any of them would live that lean. I'm sure the load on a boat engine is higher but 4500rpm at 125mph I bet engine load is still substantial.

Re: Lets talk AFR's for high speed cruise in a 496... [Re: 67Charger] #2311372
05/26/17 02:18 AM
05/26/17 02:18 AM
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I looked at the table we used on my 514 dyno mule and everything below 60 kpa was 40 degrees of timing. That is with 15:1 compression.

Re: Lets talk AFR's for high speed cruise in a 496... [Re: AndyF] #2311384
05/26/17 05:38 AM
05/26/17 05:38 AM
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Erda, UT
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Now THAT makes me feel better/more confident throwing timing at it. I've never used vac advance, and always set timing curves for idle timing, WOT, and get it in as fast as possible. Now, I need it for this type of racing.


11.33 @ 118.46 on motor
10.75 @ 125.35 w/ a little spray
Now, high Speed Open Road Racing - Silver State Classic Challenge, Nevada Open Road Challenge, Big Bend Open Road Race
Rocky Mountain Race Week 2020, 2022 2.0, Sick Week 2023
Re: Lets talk AFR's for high speed cruise in a 496... [Re: 67Charger] #2311411
05/26/17 08:27 AM
05/26/17 08:27 AM
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You are hardly adding any 'vacuum' advance at all in your table.
I'm seeing just 0 to 2 degrees of vacuum advance.


Did you enter the initial and max. mechanical advance numbers based on your engine's dynosheet?
Do you have a copy of that to post here?

I presume the 609HP was made with a known timing advance curve and rpm.
That advance number could/should safely be put in the corresponding 100% kPa load field.

The porting afterwards would vary the numbers but a dynosheet should still provide a good lead to modify your ignition map in TunerStudio.

Re: Lets talk AFR's for high speed cruise in a 496... [Re: 67Charger] #2311421
05/26/17 09:17 AM
05/26/17 09:17 AM
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Phila. Pa.
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13.5" Hg is a pretty good indicator the load is moderate. Consider the highest power valve is 10.5" and more often the engines don't need to go richer until less that. On a carb, that vacuum would also be helping p/t distribution, with the TBI I'm don't know. This is important to the extent that the tune has to accmodate the worst cylinder.

This is one instance where to some extent two changes will have to be made together (timing and fuel). From RFS...
Quote:
You need to use a vacuum gauge with the A/F gauge when you road test and keep an eye on, compare, the A/F to the vacuum level as you crowd the throttle in part-throttle acceleration when the PV is not open. You want the A/F to be as lean as it will run well at a cruise and any mid-pedal acceleration when the vacuum is above the PV opening point. As you crowd the throttle harder the engine will tolerate leaner A/F, and that may be as lean as 16.5 or even 17.5 on some engines which have good or better than average vaporization and A/F distribution characteristics. Use as lean a main jet as will accelerate at part-throttle without balking. In fact, the part-throttle torque and response usually improves with the leaner A/F up to the balking point.

Understand that the leaner it is, the more unburned Oxygen there is in the exhaust residual, so the successive combustion cycles have the advantage of hot Oxygen from previous cycles. It should come as no surprise that hot Oxygen improves combustion more than Carbon Monoxide. Also, leaner than 14.7/1 (stoichiometric) the temperatures drop off faster and more than an equal percentage on the rich side. In other words, from 15/1, 17/1 is cooler than 13/1, however the lean A/F burns slower and so needs more timing, AKA vacuum advance. The highest temperatures occur near and slightly rich of 14.7/1.

from Steady cruise AFR and pressure at WOT posted by Tuner bottom of page 2.

Re: Lets talk AFR's for high speed cruise in a 496... [Re: 67Charger] #2311556
05/26/17 01:55 PM
05/26/17 01:55 PM
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Metro Detroit
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With my TBI, I am running 15:1 AFR at cruise at ~45 degrees of timing at 50kPa. I could lean it out 16:1, but coolant temp would start to creep up gradually.

I crank with 20 degrees, have 30 at idle, 32 at WOT, and 45 at cruise

For Ref...cal table from Holley for 650HP 496"

Holley EFI V4 - [Spark Base Timing__496 650HP.hefi]_2017-05-26_12-53-13.png
Last edited by OUTLAWD; 05/26/17 01:56 PM.

Faster, Faster until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death...

71 Swinger - slowly collecting dust/parts
66 Belv. II - just a streetcar
88 Mustang - turbo LS beater
Re: Lets talk AFR's for high speed cruise in a 496... [Re: BigBlockMopar] #2311577
05/26/17 02:10 PM
05/26/17 02:10 PM
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Erda, UT
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Originally Posted By BigBlockMopar
You are hardly adding any 'vacuum' advance at all in your table.
I'm seeing just 0 to 2 degrees of vacuum advance.


Did you enter the initial and max. mechanical advance numbers based on your engine's dynosheet?
Do you have a copy of that to post here?

I presume the 609HP was made with a known timing advance curve and rpm.
That advance number could/should safely be put in the corresponding 100% kPa load field.

The porting afterwards would vary the numbers but a dynosheet should still provide a good lead to modify your ignition map in TunerStudio.


Here's the dyno sheet. The timing was setup to maintain 18° idle (crisp, clean) and max power at WOT using pump gas. Timing was all in by 2200. The dyno sheet here is a test run on C-12 the picked up about 10 HP with 34° total instead of the 30° that pump 91 liked. NOte the BSFC's from 3700 to 4700. This thing was built with mid-range efficiency in mind. This was also using a 3.5" PV.



11.33 @ 118.46 on motor
10.75 @ 125.35 w/ a little spray
Now, high Speed Open Road Racing - Silver State Classic Challenge, Nevada Open Road Challenge, Big Bend Open Road Race
Rocky Mountain Race Week 2020, 2022 2.0, Sick Week 2023
Re: Lets talk AFR's for high speed cruise in a 496... [Re: 67Charger] #2311588
05/26/17 02:25 PM
05/26/17 02:25 PM
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lancaster,california
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Hey Dan, need to change your profile pic for the new look '67


1970 'Cuda,Lime Light,499 Indy S/R's 10.70's @125,street driven ALOT!
1966 Barracuda 360,now a 5spd,Hemi Orange,Hot Rod Air,
New daily driver-2003 Ram 2500 Cummins 5.9
'69 Valiant 2-dr, sleeper!
New project---1938 Dodge truck, plan is a 360 with a A500, AC, Calvert rear susp., rack and pinion front with coils.
Re: Lets talk AFR's for high speed cruise in a 496... [Re: OUTLAWD] #2311589
05/26/17 02:27 PM
05/26/17 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted By OUTLAWD
For Ref...cal table from Holley for 650HP 496"



Who's "reference table" is that?
Looks pretty stoneage to me.
Good luck starting an engine with 31° advance without idle/starting compensation.


Re: Lets talk AFR's for high speed cruise in a 496... [Re: 67Charger] #2311620
05/26/17 03:38 PM
05/26/17 03:38 PM
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Did you go from 36° to 30° advance in one go, without checking in between advance numbers?
Efficient head chambers, amongst other things, can make an engine need less advance. But 30° still feels kinda low. I would think 32-34 would be more inline with expectations.
What heads are on the engine anyway?

I agree that putting the car on the dyno (again) and having a plan on what to achieve is better/quicker than trying to come up with a good map by trial and error.
But ofcourse, the dyno-operator needs to be on par with your goal, and not just go for the most power @ WOT.

In short, I think the dyno-session would be done by holding the engine at 4500rpm and have the dyno provide a load so the engineload is at 55 kPa.
Then vary timing advance in the corresponding cell(s) and play with the fuel-table, to see if you can lower the engine load.

A knock-sensor would be a great help and pretty much a necessity when doing this.

Looking again at your ignition table, I would first make sure all the RPM-ranges in your table step up equally (Re-Map).
Now every column goes up either by 200, 300 or even 600 rpm.


As for the 18° advance at idle;
I always like to put the transmission in Drive and then check how much advance the engine wants when idling.
On my current/daily engine it's 24° @ 550rpm where the engine load is the least. It idles with 20-21" vacuum.



Originally Posted By 67Charger

Re: Lets talk AFR's for high speed cruise in a 496... [Re: BigBlockMopar] #2311634
05/26/17 04:11 PM
05/26/17 04:11 PM
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Metro Detroit
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Originally Posted By BigBlockMopar
Originally Posted By OUTLAWD
For Ref...cal table from Holley for 650HP 496"



Who's "reference table" is that?
Looks pretty stoneage to me.
Good luck starting an engine with 31° advance without idle/starting compensation.



One of the pre-loaded Holley cals for a 496" BBC


Faster, Faster until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death...

71 Swinger - slowly collecting dust/parts
66 Belv. II - just a streetcar
88 Mustang - turbo LS beater
Re: Lets talk AFR's for high speed cruise in a 496... [Re: 67Charger] #2311690
05/26/17 05:58 PM
05/26/17 05:58 PM
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Rich at Fast Man EFI up in Sonora can sort the combo out for you. I suppose it is a bit of a drive but he is one guy that should be able to tell you what table to use. You might also see if you can get ahold of Eberg. Rick has been sorting out the table on his B body. He has a Holley system but the basic timing and fuel curves should be fairly similiar.

Re: Lets talk AFR's for high speed cruise in a 496... [Re: 67Charger] #2318653
06/09/17 08:19 PM
06/09/17 08:19 PM
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Erda, UT
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I actually got in contact with Rich through FBBO and the short version, per his advice, is I went to 25° at idle and continued fiddling with it until I found peak vacuum and a good AFR. I've now got it at 29° at 1000 rpm, sitting at 64 kPa (11"Hg vacuum) and 13.7 AFR. The 700 RPM column is set at 32° to help stabilize the idle. Cranks at 15°. That's 10 kPa better than it was before. I'll see how it does tomorrow on another cold start.

I also moved everything at 45 kPa and lower to 40°, and tapered back to my 30° as it approaches the mid 80's kPa. I revved the engine in neutral to 2500 and toggled back and forth from 30° to 40°. The audible difference was significant. That flat, muffled tone disappeared with the increase in timing. I'll have to keep working on the table, but there is DEFINITELY a lot in there to be improved. I'll get a screenshot of the current version tomorrow after I get home.

Drive-testing will have to wait until I figure out the fuel leak off the top of the tank when it is full...


11.33 @ 118.46 on motor
10.75 @ 125.35 w/ a little spray
Now, high Speed Open Road Racing - Silver State Classic Challenge, Nevada Open Road Challenge, Big Bend Open Road Race
Rocky Mountain Race Week 2020, 2022 2.0, Sick Week 2023
Re: Lets talk AFR's for high speed cruise in a 496... [Re: 67Charger] #2318693
06/09/17 09:31 PM
06/09/17 09:31 PM
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Sounds like you are making progress. I think at cruise you'll be surprised at how much timing it will want and how lean you can run it. Maybe as much as 50 degrees and somewhere around 15:1 or 16:1 on the AFR. Just keep tuning it and watching the coolant temp. If you don't want to hook up an EGT then maybe rig up an IR gun so you can take a shot of the header tubes while driving.

Re: Lets talk AFR's for high speed cruise in a 496... [Re: 67Charger] #2318739
06/09/17 10:55 PM
06/09/17 10:55 PM
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Erda, UT
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So.... Port EFI time.

I bought the tools for my CNC to drill out rails and machine the manifod and bungs for my Mopar M1 single plane. Knowing what my intended usage is, here's what I'm looking at:

-EV6 injectors, probably in the 45 - 50 lb range
---bungs as high and flat (tops leaned inward towards the centerline of the engine) as possible, or right in the flange aimed at the valve?
-Keep the FAST throttle body on there for now since it has all my sensors built in, just not use the injectors
-Batch fire the injectors (MS2 won't support sequential)
---What is the typical batch configuration Even/Odd, 1458/2367, etc?

Last edited by 67Charger; 06/09/17 10:56 PM.

11.33 @ 118.46 on motor
10.75 @ 125.35 w/ a little spray
Now, high Speed Open Road Racing - Silver State Classic Challenge, Nevada Open Road Challenge, Big Bend Open Road Race
Rocky Mountain Race Week 2020, 2022 2.0, Sick Week 2023
Re: Lets talk AFR's for high speed cruise in a 496... [Re: 67Charger] #2318754
06/09/17 11:48 PM
06/09/17 11:48 PM
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Pattison Texas
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I have just used bank fire, if not doing sequential.


1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: Lets talk AFR's for high speed cruise in a 496... [Re: CSK] #2318781
06/10/17 01:21 AM
06/10/17 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted By csk
I have just used bank fire, if not doing sequential.


I just went full sequential on mine(Holley HP)
wave

Re: Lets talk AFR's for high speed cruise in a 496... [Re: CSK] #2318796
06/10/17 02:57 AM
06/10/17 02:57 AM
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Bend,OR USA
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Originally Posted By csk
I have just used bank fire, if not doing sequential.
iagree scope


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Lets talk AFR's for high speed cruise in a 496... [Re: 67Charger] #2318824
06/10/17 08:54 AM
06/10/17 08:54 AM
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Downtown Roebuck Ont
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You want the injector aimed at the back of the intake valve.

Kevin.

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