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Cone or clutch? #2266232
03/09/17 03:33 PM
03/09/17 03:33 PM
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HP2 Offline OP
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1971 Sport Fury 440" 727 with an 8 3/4", 489 housing and 2.76 gears, the tag is still on. It locks up on dirt and snow but not on asphalt so it needs rebuilt.
From what I've heard all Sure Grip's from 1969 are cones, it this correct?
Is it possible to rebuild a cone style differential, and if so where do I find the parts?


70 W100 Power Wagon. 318 4-spd
70 Sport Fury 440 2dr HT
71 Duster 340
71 Charger Super Bee - 383/727
72 Charger "Sabotage" - 440/727 - Street/Strip
78 Warlock in beautiful patina
Re: Cone or clutch? [Re: HP2] #2266240
03/09/17 03:49 PM
03/09/17 03:49 PM
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Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
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You're better off converting over to a Power Lock (powr lok) clutch unit, and a solid spacer instead of the collapsible spacer while you're at it.

"Rebuilding" a cone unit is a shade tree bandaid.

Re: Cone or clutch? [Re: HP2] #2266258
03/09/17 04:17 PM
03/09/17 04:17 PM
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RSNOMO Offline
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You won't know what you have until it gets pulled down...

Plenty of Auburns out there alive and well...

Re: Cone or clutch? [Re: HP2] #2266312
03/09/17 05:51 PM
03/09/17 05:51 PM
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U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
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That will have a Cone type if it's original still.

Cone types are GARBAGE by design. If you are going to take it apart to do a backyard hack fix you might as well just replace it. I'd get a Grizzly Locker from Yukon and swap the spring out of the center to a lighter one , there is a road race roundy round shop that sells lighter springs if this is going to be a mostly street car.


running up my post count some more .
Re: Cone or clutch? [Re: HP2] #2266322
03/09/17 06:10 PM
03/09/17 06:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 523
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HP2 Offline OP
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I'm going to use an other third member I have, restored and ready to drop in. I just wanted to know what options there are. It would be nice to have a 2.76 SG as a spare but I don't want to spend a fortune. .


70 W100 Power Wagon. 318 4-spd
70 Sport Fury 440 2dr HT
71 Duster 340
71 Charger Super Bee - 383/727
72 Charger "Sabotage" - 440/727 - Street/Strip
78 Warlock in beautiful patina
Re: Cone or clutch? [Re: HP2] #2266351
03/09/17 07:11 PM
03/09/17 07:11 PM
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northeast ohio
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mkdart Offline
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Most people will tell you it's junk.
But if you want to fix it on the cheap.
Disassemble the unit and put the cones
on a surface grinder. And take some
material off. So the cones don't bottom out.
It works, I've done it.

Mike

Re: Cone or clutch? [Re: HP2] #2266682
03/10/17 11:23 AM
03/10/17 11:23 AM
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IL, Aurora
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ademon Offline
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My cone works fine behind my 400hp, hi stall engine, when it gets bad I will replace with a clutch type. In the mean time I change the gear oil every other year to get rid of the metal the cone creates.

Re: Cone or clutch? [Re: HP2] #2267255
03/11/17 09:19 AM
03/11/17 09:19 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
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HP2 Offline OP
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That's what I wanted to hear! Cheap quick fix works for me most of the time smile


70 W100 Power Wagon. 318 4-spd
70 Sport Fury 440 2dr HT
71 Duster 340
71 Charger Super Bee - 383/727
72 Charger "Sabotage" - 440/727 - Street/Strip
78 Warlock in beautiful patina
Re: Cone or clutch? [Re: HP2] #2267313
03/11/17 12:13 PM
03/11/17 12:13 PM
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Minn
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SportF Offline
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Gosh, this is my favorite subject. I always feel obligated to comment.

According to many here, simply owning a cone type sure grip may be the worst thing you could do in life. Any of you nay sayers care to tell me how or why this thing works (which is the same principal as the clutch of course)?

I never had trouble myself, but from what I hear here, my car has no value because of it (I might add my splines don't line up on my steering shaft either).

You can grind some off the cones as stated, and if you wish, get the pre-load back by adding a big diameter washer in there about the thickness you take off.

If you are worried about the metal, put a magnet on the housing somewhere at the bottom. Chrysler never worried about it and they warranted them for 50K miles. I have never seen an excess of metal in the oil even after one of these was wore out. Must go somewhere though.

This unit also has much bigger sypder gears than the clutch type, which are prone to breakage in the clutch type, but nobody ever mentions that.

Have fun, don't believe every thing you hear here.

Re: Cone or clutch? [Re: HP2] #2267317
03/11/17 12:20 PM
03/11/17 12:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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What is the application? General use the cone is fine. If you are going to be doing some racing then you'd be better with the clutch style.


[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/pui5j.jpg[/IMG]
Coming soon!!!!
Re: Cone or clutch? [Re: SportF] #2267341
03/11/17 12:52 PM
03/11/17 12:52 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,819
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
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Originally Posted By SportF
Gosh, this is my favorite subject. I always feel obligated to comment.

According to many here, simply owning a cone type sure grip may be the worst thing you could do in life. Any of you nay sayers care to tell me how or why this thing works (which is the same principal as the clutch of course)?

I never had trouble myself, but from what I hear here, my car has no value because of it (I might add my splines don't line up on my steering shaft either).

You can grind some off the cones as stated, and if you wish, get the pre-load back by adding a big diameter washer in there about the thickness you take off.

If you are worried about the metal, put a magnet on the housing somewhere at the bottom. Chrysler never worried about it and they warranted them for 50K miles. I have never seen an excess of metal in the oil even after one of these was wore out. Must go somewhere though.

This unit also has much bigger sypder gears than the clutch type, which are prone to breakage in the clutch type, but nobody ever mentions that.

Have fun, don't believe every thing you hear here.



If the cone was our only option, we'd run it. THANKFULLY it's not. I disagree that the spiders are any more prone to breakage in the clutch, in fact they are subject to fail in the cone because of the cones spreading apart as they wear. This increase in distance decreases the engagement of the spiders-to-side gears. That's a major reason it's a very good idea to shim the cones if your gonna do the backyard cone grinding fix...

The clutch unit can hold more torque, and is fully rebuildable. It's just a better unit.

I'd rather have a cone than an open, but that's the best thing I can say about it.

Re: Cone or clutch? [Re: SportF] #2268664
03/13/17 03:36 PM
03/13/17 03:36 PM
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U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
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Get out the waders it's getting deep in here ...

You need to add MORE than the amount you take off the cones , if the cones are already bottomed out then the spiders already have increased backlash.

All that metal in the oil is not a myth ... the cones are wearing out because they are grinding away EVERY time the car turns ... spiders will weld themselves to the spider pinion when the cones bottom and you keep doing burnouts, it can even happen to a peg leg after 2 many one wheel burnouts.

If one hasn't seen the damage they are either Helen Keller blind or inspecting the parts from across a dimly lit football stadium. ...just look at the gear teeth, and the bearing rollers and races with a magnifying glass to see all the little pits.


running up my post count some more .
Re: Cone or clutch? [Re: JohnRR] #2268675
03/13/17 03:51 PM
03/13/17 03:51 PM
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Irving, TX
feets Offline
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Originally Posted By JohnRR

All that metal in the oil is not a myth ... the cones are wearing out because they are grinding away EVERY time the car turns ... spiders will weld themselves to the spider pinion when the cones bottom and you keep doing burnouts, it can even happen to a peg leg after 2 many one wheel burnouts.



I had a cone in the hot rod. The car didn't see too many burnouts but it would sometimes spin the tires when rolling, even on a hit above 50 mph. That's likely as hard on it as a burnout or more so.

One of the side gears stuck itself to the cross pin. That cross pin ate the differential assembly.

There were no outward signs of the failure. I only found it when I swapped diffs with the Imperial.

I went with a True Trac replacement.


We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: Cone or clutch? [Re: JohnRR] #2268681
03/13/17 04:05 PM
03/13/17 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Get out the waders it's getting deep in here ...

You need to add MORE than the amount you take off the cones , if the cones are already bottomed out then the spiders already have increased backlash.

All that metal in the oil is not a myth ... the cones are wearing out because they are grinding away EVERY time the car turns ... spiders will weld themselves to the spider pinion when the cones bottom and you keep doing burnouts, it can even happen to a peg leg after 2 many one wheel burnouts.

If one hasn't seen the damage they are either Helen Keller blind or inspecting the parts from across a dimly lit football stadium. ...just look at the gear teeth, and the bearing rollers and races with a magnifying glass to see all the little pits.




Free yourself...

EVERY BLESSED TIME THIS COMES UP...


Buy a Camaro...

Re: Cone or clutch? [Re: HP2] #2268682
03/13/17 04:05 PM
03/13/17 04:05 PM
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Minn
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SportF Offline
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Well, see, it is true, the cone is the worst thing you can do.

You should actually add shims to the cone to get you back to the torque spec, but why do that when its the worst thing you can own. Darn, now I am going to lie awake at night worry about my cars rear.

Now, with this established, we should know the principal behind how it works, any one care to share?

Re: Cone or clutch? [Re: HP2] #2268693
03/13/17 04:26 PM
03/13/17 04:26 PM
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Currently using worn cone style in my lower power car Yes it does want o go single at times but I found by jacking around the shocks in the rear I can cheat the bad unit make it think its always sure grip just like the open rear's I used. By the way back in the 60's and 70's all the Chrysler mechanic's I knew said the cones lasted forever In my case 55 years old cone and clutches were all junk units, boy do times thinking and tech change

Re: Cone or clutch? [Re: HP2] #2268697
03/13/17 04:33 PM
03/13/17 04:33 PM
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Phila. Pa.
Mattax Offline
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Originally Posted By HP2
1971 Sport Fury 440" 727 with an 8 3/4", 489 housing and 2.76 gears, the tag is still on. It locks up on dirt and snow but not on asphalt so it needs rebuilt.
From what I've heard all Sure Grip's from 1969 are cones, it this correct?
Is it possible to rebuild a cone style differential, and if so where do I find the parts?

'69 should still be Dana, see here http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/axle/21.html and if you want more original source, then look at the FSM and bulletins from '69 and '70 (Hammtramck Historical and Imperial Club are a couple of on-line libraries of service bulltins and similar factory lit)

'71 should be cone type. If you want to keep it, Rick E had an article (probably in Mopar Action) showing the step by step for checking if there is enough left and how to machine it. Auburn made replacements.

If you prefer the Dana style, it will always be rebuildable. And if you already have one, then that's the ticket.

Re: Cone or clutch? [Re: SportF] #2268703
03/13/17 04:41 PM
03/13/17 04:41 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,819
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
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Originally Posted By SportF


Now, with this established, we should know the principal behind how it works, any one care to share?


Pretty simple. The spider/side gears are cut fat at the base, and narrow at the top. This means that they WANT to separate, Spider gear from side gear as torque is applied. More torque, more side force.

This side force is transferred to the cones, which attempt to wedge themselves against the case. When this occurs, you have lockup and each axle will spin the same RPM.

If there is not enough force (including when the cones eventually bottom out in the case) the differential will, well, differentiate---good for corners, not so good for acceleration.

Re: Cone or clutch? [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #2268862
03/13/17 08:57 PM
03/13/17 08:57 PM
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SportF Offline
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Minn
Originally Posted By Pacnorthcuda
Originally Posted By SportF


Now, with this established, we should know the principal behind how it works, any one care to share?


Pretty simple. The spider/side gears are cut fat at the base, and narrow at the top. This means that they WANT to separate, Spider gear from side gear as torque is applied. More torque, more side force.

This side force is transferred to the cones, which attempt to wedge themselves against the case. When this occurs, you have lockup and each axle will spin the same RPM.

If there is not enough force (including when the cones eventually bottom out in the case) the differential will, well, differentiate---good for corners, not so good for acceleration.


Bingo, we have a winner!

Re: Cone or clutch? [Re: SportF] #2268869
03/13/17 09:05 PM
03/13/17 09:05 PM
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Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
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I have a cone 7&1/4 sure grip & its totally open now (before I got it), not sure how that happened!. I have another 7&1/4 clutch sure grip rear end that will be a good addition for snow/ice in a low po Dart daily driver when I get to it.


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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