64.8 % greater, now you guys can go back to talking about dry humping.

That was a great explanation. Makes me want to go out and buy one now

Makes me want to go out and buy one now [/quote]

You should buy one ,they are a simple bolt in and you end up with about the best steering you can get without changing over to a rack setup.
I would contact Peter at Bergman Auto Craft and talk to him directly, he is very good to deal with and if you need advice on installing it will help you out.

You should buy one ,they are a simple bolt in and you end up with about the best steering you can get without changing over to a rack setup.
I would contact Peter at Bergman Auto Craft and talk to him directly, he is very good to deal with and if you need advice on installing it will help you out. [/quote]I was asking a serious question. I'm going to upgrade, just wanted to know the actual benefits over it to the others I mentioned. Is it really worth dropping the $$$ for it?

The money part I can't answer for you, but it is a marked improvement over a factory box.

I suggest you talk to owners of FF boxes as well.

I'll take a stab at the money part.

I started with a Steer and Gear rebuilt box and it wasn't bad. I've driven cars with FF boxes too. FF does great work, but ultimately they're limited by the deficiencies of the factory box itself. The biggest drawback is the slop you get with the steering wheel at 12-o-clock before it starts firming up. The Borgeson box doesn't have this - it stays firm from lock to lock.

Advantages:

• 15lbs lighter
• 2/3 the size
• built-in 14:1 ratio, vs 16:1 of a stock box
• No 12-o-clock slop

Firm Feel

• Box: $360
• Core: $200
• Fast Ratio Pitman: $200
• Fast Ratio Idler: $90

With the fast ratio hardware you'll get a better 12:1 ratio, but it can interfere with some headers.

Total: $850 or $650 if you have a box to send back

Borgrson (Bergman priceing):

• Kit: $860

Honestly, whether or not it's worth it is completely dependent on what you're doing with the car. It is physically a much better box, but if all you're looking to do is firm the steering up with none of the other bits or worries of header clearance and weight then the FF box is half the price.

That being said though, even at the extreme end of the pricing differences, I would order a Borgeson box again without thinking twice.

Ok, thanks. That was a pretty good explanation.

Money aside both Firm Feel boxes I ran were sloppy again after a couple of years of driving...just like the factory boxes.

I installed my Borgeson box this weekend, the install wasn't perfectly smooth as I needed some additional header clearance and some 10ga shims on the right side of the box in order to achieve a reasonable steering column angle.

It's in, as long as it doesn't leak and feels better, I will be content.

Goody, your an engineer.

How difficult would it have been to engineer the box to fit at least as well as the stock box?

Do you have any steering geometry issues with the centering and tie rod length?

Is the coupling center line in line with the steering column? Can't really tell from the picture.

A 10 gauge shim is how thick? Where again? Show us

Why are fast ratio arms needed on 16:1 box?

It's difficult for to understand why spending a lot of money on better hardware that doesn't fit without compromise is a wise choice. As far a the firm feel boxes loosening up complaint. Try something called steering sector shaft adjustment. It's in the book [FSM].

Mine fits like a glove.

For how much adjustment is available within the factory column and what misalignment it can take, it would likely not be very difficult. I would be curious to see what a random population of K-frames look like on a 3D scanner, I bet they vary substantially based on 70's quality control. Not that it's an excuse, but I bet many would be surprised.

I believe Borgeson could simply include some shims and people would complain a whole lot less. For example, Hotchkis includes pretty substantial shims on their front sway bar kit to accommodate factory K-frame variance, I believe my chassis mount shims are around 1/2". While obviously these shims are on much less of a critical component, the theory still applies.

Do people complain? No, they don't. Why? Because the shims are right there in the box and it seems to have been a forethought, they put the shims in and keep on living their lives. It's all in how one wants to spin it.



The car has not had an alignment yet.



Yes.



10 gauge is approximately 0.14". The passenger side two bolts have shims behind the box, a picture isn't really necessary here, it's quite simple.



No applicable to my post. I will, however, consider the 1.5:1 steering quickener I have on hand if I find the steering not fast enough for an autocross course.


The sector shaft adjustment is typically not an acceptable method of adjusting a box, with longevity in mind. Here is how my potential costs stacked up:

Firm Feel Stage 3 Box: ($379)
Shipping Core to Firm Feel: ($70)
Shipping Firm Feel Box Back: ($70)
Total: ($519)

Borgeson Box: ($566)
Shipping: $0
Borgeson U-Joint: ($117)
Selling Old Box: $90
Total: ($593)

It would have been $74 cheaper to use a Firm Feel box. I have a 15# lighter box and, from what I hear, excellent road feel once it is up and running.

It's not a life changing decision if it does not work out, but it's not like my alternative was hundreds of dollars cheaper. The numbers are there and are not sensationalized.

Aren't the hoses in need of an adapter?

My plan has always been custom with the Hemi, shouldn't be any real cost increase there worth mentioning. To me.

In your case maybe not.

Other cases who knows. Nothing sux worse than starting a quicky weekend project only to find out you do not have every thing ready to go as you though and it's 2am Sunday morning when you find that out.

all "easy", half hour jobs take at LEAST three plus hours and a couple of runs to the parts store to do. then, you of course do this on the weekend, only to find out the things you need are "out of stock", or the only available store that has what you need is conveniently closed. then, after finally getting your needed items, you find out things need modified to fit which takes another hour or so with the grinder, mill, or lathe. this, you find out around wednesday of the following week, so by the weekend, you can FINALLY get the job done. half way to completion, you chop your finger, which requires an ER visit for stitches, then, you feel real crappy when you get home, so rest and beers later, it is monday morning and time for work. the following weekend, you almost feel up to finish the job, but get unexpected company for the weekend. monday morning arrives all to soon after the "fun" visit, then another week passes, during which your stitches get removed from your "slight hack". finally, you complete the "easy, half hour" FUN job sunday afternoon about supper time. supper, snooze time, and it's monday morning AGAIN.......... [and we ARE having fun ! - i think ? right ? that's why we do this, right ? it's SO relaxing to tinker in the garage. ]

Moparx -- very well said!

Bergman already scienced this out and has everything you need in his kit.