Re: Harland sharp or T+D rockers for 440-1 heads...
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2249856
02/08/17 07:12 PM
02/08/17 07:12 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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Tens(hundreds?) of thousands of racers, running in every type of series imaginable, are all wrong, not to mention all the engineers that design the rockers, working for the most respected names in the industry....... And only you are correct. Look it up for yourself. It was a bandaid for Chevrolet junk. The trend is AWAY from needle bearing rocker arms. You can do what YOU want it doesn't make it right. So, I'll say it again. I avoid needle bearings on reciprocating shafts because it's not a good option. Just because Tens(hundreds?) of thousands of people do something doesn't make it right. I know guys who never measure a crank and damper. They just heat it up and bash it on. I've never seen one fail but that doesn't make that right either. I posted some test results from my testing. My dyno sheets went with that engine when I sold it. If the customer who did the other testing wants to joint MoParts and post his dyno results, he can. Have you ever tested rockers?
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Harland sharp or T+D rockers for 440-1 heads...
[Re: madscientist]
#2249861
02/08/17 07:22 PM
02/08/17 07:22 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,205 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,205
PA.
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Damn let it go already. You aren't going to change the minds of guys that have been running them SUCCESSFULLY for years with zero issues. You do it YOUR way and we will do it OUR way. Stick with good name brand products like Jessel, T&D, and Harland Sharp and not the cheapie import junk.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Harland sharp or T+D rockers for 440-1 heads...
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2249886
02/08/17 07:54 PM
02/08/17 07:54 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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Damn let it go already. You aren't going to change the minds of guys that have been running them SUCCESSFULLY for years with zero issues. You do it YOUR way and we will do it OUR way. Stick with good name brand products like Jessel, T&D, and Harland Sharp and not the cheapie import junk. Not trying to convince YOU of anything. Some of you get your panties tight when your convention is tested. Looks like the "WE's" have it.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Harland sharp or T+D rockers for 440-1 heads...
[Re: madscientist]
#2249902
02/08/17 08:15 PM
02/08/17 08:15 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,205 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,205
PA.
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Heck I already sold off all my purple shaft cams, replaced my Super Stock spring with junk-yard springs, turned my pinion snubber into a boat anchor, and now you want me to trash 12 sets of Jessel, T&D rockers, and Harland Sharps that I have accumulated. LOL. Man this racing is getting expensive.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Harland sharp or T+D rockers for 440-1 heads...
[Re: voigtspeed]
#2249913
02/08/17 08:45 PM
02/08/17 08:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,515 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,515
So. Burlington, Vt.
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Have you ever tested rockers? Bushed vs roller for power differences? Nope. But I wasn't one of the people posting about that. My comments were more directed about the impending doom of every motor in operation that's running aluminum rockers with roller bearing fulcrums.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Harland sharp or T+D rockers for 440-1 heads...
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2249917
02/08/17 08:52 PM
02/08/17 08:52 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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Have you ever tested rockers? Bushed vs roller for power differences? Nope. But I wasn't one of the people posting about that. My comments were more directed about the impending doom of every motor in operation that's running aluminum rockers with roller bearing fulcrums. Wow you guys make [censored] up as you go. Never said doom or anything like that. What I said was, and still say and will always say don't put needle bearings on a reciprocating shaft. It's bad engineering. I'm not the engineer who developed that but it's an engineering fact. Have trouble with facts? I don't care what any other builder does. Have tested it and know, for a fact, it was zero power. If all the friction was what all the hero's say it is, there would have been some power there. But no. So, you can use what you want. But the less rockers sold by companies I really don't personally care for the better. I know all the super tuners on here also want me to believe that stud mounted rockers are still the [censored] today. Unreal. Junk is junk at any price.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Harland sharp or T+D rockers for 440-1 heads...
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2249918
02/08/17 08:53 PM
02/08/17 08:53 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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Heck I already sold off all my purple shaft cams, replaced my Super Stock spring with junk-yard springs, turned my pinion snubber into a boat anchor, and now you want me to trash 12 sets of Jessel, T&D rockers, and Harland Sharps that I have accumulated. LOL. Man this racing is getting expensive. I didn't tell you to do anything. But it's evident that when you can't post facts you post [censored] I didn't say. Later dood.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Harland sharp or T+D rockers for 440-1 heads...
[Re: voigtspeed]
#2249925
02/08/17 08:57 PM
02/08/17 08:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,515 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,515
So. Burlington, Vt.
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Wow you guys make [censored] up as you go. Never said doom or anything like that.
What I said was, and still say and will always say don't put needle bearings on a reciprocating shaft. It's bad engineering. I'm not the engineer who developed that but it's an engineering fact. Have trouble with facts? You mention at least 3 times how you should never run a roller bearing in a reciprocating application. If you're not worried it's going to fail, then why all the warnings? So, your position is that your typical rocker arm that has a needle bearing in it, that there is no rotation for the bearing? And that's the reason why they are "wrong" for the application? How about if the rocker arm is being run with clearance at the valve?(lash)
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Harland sharp or T+D rockers for 440-1 heads...
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2249942
02/08/17 09:36 PM
02/08/17 09:36 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,205 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,205
PA.
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I seriously think somebody needs a Snickers Bar
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Harland sharp or T+D rockers for 440-1 heads...
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2249993
02/08/17 11:15 PM
02/08/17 11:15 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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Wow you guys make [censored] up as you go. Never said doom or anything like that.
What I said was, and still say and will always say don't put needle bearings on a reciprocating shaft. It's bad engineering. I'm not the engineer who developed that but it's an engineering fact. Have trouble with facts? You mention at least 3 times how you should never run a roller bearing in a reciprocating application. If you're not worried it's going to fail, then why all the warnings? So, your position is that your typical rocker arm that has a needle bearing in it, that there is no rotation for the bearing? And that's the reason why they are "wrong" for the application? How about if the rocker arm is being run with clearance at the valve?(lash) Unreal. Show me where it is acceptable to use a needle bearing on a reciprocating shaft other than a rocker arm? It's not the way to do it. GM had no choice but to do SOMETHING because they had a [censored] system. It was cheap and that's all that was good about it. Keep doing it because you like it. I think it's a piss poor way to make a rocker arm. Yes, I have used aluminum rockers. And I will again but never with a needle bearing. I only had two chances to dyno them, but the bearing didn't do [censored]. All marketing hype. Believe the hype.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Harland sharp or T+D rockers for 440-1 heads...
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2249994
02/08/17 11:15 PM
02/08/17 11:15 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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I seriously think somebody needs a Snickers Bar Seriously think you need your diaper changed.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Harland sharp or T+D rockers for 440-1 heads...
[Re: voigtspeed]
#2250080
02/09/17 12:42 AM
02/09/17 12:42 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,114 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,114
Oregon
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If anyone is interested in the real engineering design guidelines for needle bearings you can find it here: http://www.ntnamericas.com/en/website/do...13-e_lowres.pdfWhat you'll find is that needle bearings work just fine for oscillating shafts as long as the angle of oscillation is greater than the distance between the bearings. If you look at a Jesel rocker arm you'll see that they are properly engineered. Some of the super cheap Chinese crap rocker arms use large diameter needle bearings and if you use them with low lift cams you might have a lubrication problem. There shouldn't be a problem with any of the high quality vendors such as T&D or Jesel.
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Re: Harland sharp or T+D rockers for 440-1 heads...
[Re: AndyF]
#2250163
02/09/17 03:07 AM
02/09/17 03:07 AM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 180 merrill, wisconsin
voigtspeed
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 180
merrill, wisconsin
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I want to thank all of you again for your advice that comes from years of hands on real world knowledge.
Having a place like Moparts where we can share this knowledge and sometimes disagree is a great asset for the few of us that still love our Mopars.
There may be better or cheaper options for a fast car but no one can argue Mopar has and still makes the most interesting cars with attitude and power.
It is good to have networking with others that share the same passion.
That is also a fact.............
Thanks Guys
ACCELERATION SPECIALIST
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Re: Harland sharp or T+D rockers for 440-1 heads...
[Re: AndyF]
#2250171
02/09/17 03:28 AM
02/09/17 03:28 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890 North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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If anyone is interested in the real engineering design guidelines for needle bearings you can find it here: http://www.ntnamericas.com/en/website/do...13-e_lowres.pdfWhat you'll find is that needle bearings work just fine for oscillating shafts as long as the angle of oscillation is greater than the distance between the bearings. If you look at a Jesel rocker arm you'll see that they are properly engineered. Some of the super cheap Chinese crap rocker arms use large diameter needle bearings and if you use them with low lift cams you might have a lubrication problem. There shouldn't be a problem with any of the high quality vendors such as T&D or Jesel. Most high end equipment uses needle bearings in oscillating configurations. I used to work plant maintenance at a Monsanto plant on very complex and precision fiber tow and drawtwist machinery. Bushed parts can't be machined to close enough tolerances to maintain alignment. While that may not truly matter on something like a rocker arm, it damn sure can't hurt. Bottom line..........it's BETTER
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Re: Harland sharp or T+D rockers for 440-1 heads...
[Re: madscientist]
#2250223
02/09/17 10:32 AM
02/09/17 10:32 AM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 403 Romulus, MI
GTS340
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 403
Romulus, MI
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So basically you disagree with the engineering principle of using a needle bearing on a reciprocating shaft but have never seen any ill effects from doing so? What are your engineering credentials? The anti body roll bar on my truck has needle bearings and is most certainly a reciprocating shaft, did I fudge up?? Do I need to knock them out and install bushings in their place? Bottom line, there are variables to be considered when using needle bearings on a reciprocating shaft which you are obviously not accounting for in your view, as long as the rotational distance on the reciprocating shaft is great enough to properly work the bearing there is no problem. As far as a bushing costing more than a bearing, not sure how that is possible, any half azzed semi-skilled person with a lathe can make a bushing in minutes (only seconds if the process is fully automated) where a needle bearing requires high precision grinding and then assembly.
Last edited by GTS340; 02/09/17 11:24 AM.
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Re: Harland sharp or T+D rockers for 440-1 heads...
[Re: voigtspeed]
#2250302
02/09/17 01:47 PM
02/09/17 01:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,515 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,515
So. Burlington, Vt.
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Show me where it is acceptable to use a needle bearing on a reciprocating shaft other than a rocker arm There have been billions of them in service, run for trillions of miles for trillions of hours, for over a century....... It's called a universal joint.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Harland sharp or T+D rockers for 440-1 heads...
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2250368
02/09/17 03:43 PM
02/09/17 03:43 PM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 485 Central California
MoParFish
mopar
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mopar
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 485
Central California
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Show me where it is acceptable to use a needle bearing on a reciprocating shaft other than a rocker arm There have been billions of them in service, run for trillions of miles for trillions of hours, for over a century....... It's called a universal joint. Was thinking the same thing...
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