Harland sharp or T+D rockers for 440-1 heads...

What rockers do you like the best and why ?

Do not want to go with the cost of jessel so it is T+D or Harland sharp.

T&D with a bushing, not the bearing.

They'll make them, you just have to ask.

I have both and have had zero issues with either sets and I love the bearings in both

Love my T&D rockers. Why the bushing? I run the bearings

Are you wanting to buy the single shaft systems from both? If so either one will work, I've had and used both
I have two motors now with Harland Sharp 1.6 ratio and one set of heads with a set of T&D single shaft system with 1.7 ratio and another untested motor with Jesel 1.55 ratio paired shaft system on it
The motor with the Jesel rockers rotate a lot easier once broken away than any other motor I have built or tested
I am gathering parts now for a all out go fast motor with B1-MC heads and I will probally buy a set of the stainless steel(chrome moly maybe?) T&D 1.7 ratio paired rocker arm set up from them for this motor

Unless the HS setup is a lot less expensive and there's a budget issue, IMO the T&D is a better designed and machined rocker.

The T&D paired are the nicest rocker system I've ever used. Nice to be able to remove them a pair at time if needed. In my experience they will wear the shaft before they hurt a bearing. I replaced the bearings in mine last year. I have no idea how many passes they had before me but I'll bet they were somewhere around 1000. Cost $96 to replace all 32 bearings. All looked and felt fine. I had 3 shaft that showed brinelling. They were $25 a piece.
Doug

The short answer is never run a needle bearing on a reciprocating shaft. GM had a system so [censored] that the needle bearing was actually a step up. And the industry followed right along and the rest of us get the same garbage.

If you're going to run springs that are larger than about 1.580, and installed heights taller than about 1.950....... And the T&D system you're considering is the "single shaft" set-up, then you'll more than likely have to do some relieving of the rockers to clear the springs/retainers.

The HS rockers clear 1.625 springs with no issues.

If I remember right Harland Sharp will also clearance the rockers for more if asked to do so.

T&D will do a spring relief on the rocker arm as an option. I had that done on the T&D rockers for my Trick Flow heads.

I've used both T&D and Harland and there isn't any power difference between them. T&D rockers are smaller and lighter and work with pushrod oiling. The Harland rockers are big and beefy and designed to work with shaft oiling.

T+D hands down............ive broke HS with a solid flat tappet never any breakage with T+Ds

I have both and did break a HS once. It took about 700 runs though. I bought the T&D's for my -1 setup and haven't had an issue in three years. The LSM tool is golden for proper torque and adjustment.

Harland Sharp can be ordered with pushrod oiling and cup adjuster as an option at no extra charge. Just remember the HS do not come with mounting bolts or studs. T&D come with all mounting hardware. Best price for HS was found thru Don at FBO.

Thanks for all the input looking for the best in my budget regretfully paired rockers may be a little out of reach right now.

I was leaning toward T+D I have heard good about them I have also had good luck with harland sharp but never used them on 440-1 heads.

Thanks for the heads up on spring diameter. How they fit clearance and geometry wise was another question....

Now to price them.

I've owned and raced both T&D and Harland Sharp single shafts set ups on Indy heads, I'll buy another set of Harland Sharps for my next single shaft Indy headed motor build

As was posted on another site....
Quote "with all the steel rockers available today, why would anyone run aluminum?"

I'd also add why would any one run needle bearings. They are so 1977.

And which bushed steel rocker system do you recommend to use on the OP's Indy 440-1 heads?

He is probably stuck with aluminum but he could at least use a bushing instead of needle bearings.

I'd be surprised if Jesel didn't have something.


This is why no one runs chryslers. If someone made a steel rocker, would any one buy it? I doubt it. When I begged for a set of Norris stainless rockers people made fun of me.

Aluminum was only good for the manufacturers.


So, my point should have been if I ever do another race car, it will have other than a Chrysler in it. You can only cobble junk along so much and then you just say [censored] it.

No one runs Mopars. Give me a break and come to Ohio or Pennsylvania and see how many Mopars run at our tracks. Lol. And we run the crap out of our aluminum roller bearing lifters. 40 years and never broke an aluminum roller bearing rocker but I don't run crap either. Harland Sharp or t&d rockers for me

Great. Using 30 year old stuff.


Keep doing wha you are doing. Sounds like you are happy.

Very happy and so are lots of other guys

Let's see a show of hands of guys on this board running n/a 800+hp combos who aren't running T&D, Jesel, or HS rockers that have bearings in them.......

Just because it's being done doesn't make it right. You can sit here and try and make me think that you agree with the way other guys do things. But I'd bet you don't.

Needle bearings on a reciprocating shaft is wrong, no matter who does it or for how long.

Could you explain why it is wrong to use needle bearing shaft rockers vs. a bushed shaft rocker?

T+d offer single shaft rockers for -1heads.....ran em on mine.

If your shafts are reciprocating, you're doing it WRONG!

Needle bearings need to roll, not reciprocate.

But it's been done forever so it's now correct.

Dirt bikes used to have bushings in the swing arm pivots. Then they figured it was cheaper to use a bearing and out went the bushing. The bearings never last very long.


So, I just don't do it, specially if you have a choice.

And a bushing will carry more load. Just lie in a roller lifter. Clean oil and a bushing is better than a needle bearing any day.

It's pretty safe to say that "most" of the higher hp mopar bb builds will be running solid roller lifters.

If you think about what's really happening with regards to whether the bearings are "rolling" or not....... Then you'd see it's really not as "wrong" as some seem to think it is(at least not in my mind).

IMO, for 95% of the builds people are doing....... Needle bearings in the rocker fulcrums are a non-issue.

As far as bushed or extruded aluminum or ductile iron or any other material that rides on a single shaft with no caged needle bearing rocker arms I would( and have ) use a torque wrench and measure the differences in rotational torque needed to turn the motor over with no spark plugs in it and then use a decent set of caged needle bearing roller rockers with everything else remaining the exact same on the motor and see how much loss of force is found, how much less rotational drag with the race rocker arms used today
I have four different motors in my shop now and one in each of the cars I own and race, one street motor has Crane extruded aluminum roller tip rocker arms on a single shaft stock type, two have sets of ductile iron single shafts, one race motor has a set of Harland Sharp roller rocker single shaft set up, the other race motor has a Jesel paired shaft steel roller rocker on it. The Jesel set up motor uses a noticeable less amount of force needed to keep it rotating over once it is spinning, it has 340 lbs of seat pressure and around 870 lbs open.
The street motors with the non roller rocker arms have the most resistance to keep rotating over with 140 to 160 lbs. on the seats and less than 400 lbs open pressure, they are flat tappet cam motors also
Bushed or non bushed rocker arms have a lot more contact surface on the shafts than the caged needle bearings do Pay me now or pay me later, later always cost more

Could the type of oiling...ie. external feed, full groove cam journal, pushrod oiling (constant feed) vs. standard half rotation via the stock cam journal (pulse/splash feed) to the rockers have a bearing (no pun intended) on a preferred rocker type?

Do you think pressurizing or pumping oil through the bushed rockers would change the rotational torque required to any measurable degree?

Either will work, even no bushing, just the rocker itself. Go for what has good service life, geometry, resonable cost, and what is availible for your combo. For what it's worth my roller tappets were changed from needle bearing to bushing. There was zero difference in performance.
Doug

I've tested this twice. Once on my engine, once on a customer engine who didn't mind funding it and sold what he didn't use.

On my engine I used 2 sets of T&D rockers, one with bearings and one with bushings. The other was a set of HS rockers a customer bought and a set of Cranes he had sitting there. Both roller engines. I had 340 on the seat and almost 900 over the nose. He had about 300 on the seat and 750ish over the nose.

I ran my engine on the dyno with the bearing rockers. Flogged the hell out of it. Then the bets started. How much power would I lose with no bearings. Since it was the same brand of rocker the swap was simple. Started pulling on it. Absolutely ZERO power loss. None. In fact in mid RPM it made 3-4 HP but it never lost. All the way to 8800. We put the bearing rockers back on the verify.


The customer engine was a bit more tricky. Between the different brands we had to correct geometry and the cranes were actually a bit more ratio when loaded. Crane measured about 1.58 and the HS were 1.51 and again, the results were the same. No power loss. None. His Cranes were up a small amount everywhere, but we felt that was possibly due to the ratio difference and the Cranes, when all said and done had a bit better geometry.


That's the only time I've ever tested it. That's the results. The interesting thing we both learned was that when running needle bearings, we had to chase the lash a bit. No bearings and the lash was much more consistent and didn't require adjusting as often.


As I looked into it more and more I realized I would never do bearings again if I had the choice. I know T&D will send them out bushed and T&D will send them out without a bushing.


Just what I found.

I will continue to use rockers with bearings in them, and not lose any sleep over it.

Most do. I'm not surprised.

Tens(hundreds?) of thousands of racers, running in every type of series imaginable, are all wrong, not to mention all the engineers that design the rockers, working for the most respected names in the industry....... And only you are correct.

Oh, like open chamber IRON heads and flat/mushroom tappet cams?? Pot calling the kettle black there Tim

Thanks for posting your test results.

Look it up for yourself.
It was a bandaid for Chevrolet junk.
The trend is AWAY from needle bearing rocker arms.
You can do what YOU want it doesn't make it right.


So, I'll say it again. I avoid needle bearings on reciprocating shafts because it's not a good option.

Just because Tens(hundreds?) of thousands of people do something doesn't make it right.
I know guys who never measure a crank and damper. They just heat it up and bash it on. I've never seen one fail but that doesn't make that right either.


I posted some test results from my testing. My dyno sheets went with that engine when I sold it. If the customer who did the other testing wants to joint MoParts and post his dyno results, he can.


Have you ever tested rockers?

Damn let it go already. You aren't going to change the minds of guys that have been running them SUCCESSFULLY for years with zero issues. You do it YOUR way and we will do it OUR way. Stick with good name brand products like Jessel, T&D, and Harland Sharp and not the cheapie import junk.

Not trying to convince YOU of anything.

Some of you get your panties tight when your convention is tested.

Looks like the "WE's" have it.

Heck I already sold off all my purple shaft cams, replaced my Super Stock spring with junk-yard springs, turned my pinion snubber into a boat anchor, and now you want me to trash 12 sets of Jessel, T&D rockers, and Harland Sharps that I have accumulated. LOL. Man this racing is getting expensive.

Bushed vs roller for power differences? Nope.

But I wasn't one of the people posting about that.

My comments were more directed about the impending doom of every motor in operation that's running aluminum rockers with roller bearing fulcrums.

Wow you guys make [censored] up as you go. Never said doom or anything like that.

What I said was, and still say and will always say don't put needle bearings on a reciprocating shaft. It's bad engineering. I'm not the engineer who developed that but it's an engineering fact. Have trouble with facts?

I don't care what any other builder does. Have tested it and know, for a fact, it was zero power. If all the friction was what all the hero's say it is, there would have been some power there. But no.


So, you can use what you want. But the less rockers sold by companies I really don't personally care for the better.

I know all the super tuners on here also want me to believe that stud mounted rockers are still the [censored] today. Unreal.

Junk is junk at any price.

I didn't tell you to do anything.

But it's evident that when you can't post facts you post [censored] I didn't say.

Later dood.

You mention at least 3 times how you should never run a roller bearing in a reciprocating application.

If you're not worried it's going to fail, then why all the warnings?

So, your position is that your typical rocker arm that has a needle bearing in it, that there is no rotation for the bearing?

And that's the reason why they are "wrong" for the application?

How about if the rocker arm is being run with clearance at the valve?(lash)

I seriously think somebody needs a Snickers Bar

Unreal.

Show me where it is acceptable to use a needle bearing on a reciprocating shaft other than a rocker arm? It's not the way to do it. GM had no choice but to do SOMETHING because they had a [censored] system. It was cheap and that's all that was good about it.


Keep doing it because you like it. I think it's a piss poor way to make a rocker arm. Yes, I have used aluminum rockers. And I will again but never with a needle bearing. I only had two chances to dyno them, but the bearing didn't do [censored]. All marketing hype.

Believe the hype.

Seriously think you need your diaper changed.

If anyone is interested in the real engineering design guidelines for needle bearings you can find it here:

http://www.ntnamericas.com/en/website/do...13-e_lowres.pdf

What you'll find is that needle bearings work just fine for oscillating shafts as long as the angle of oscillation is greater than the distance between the bearings. If you look at a Jesel rocker arm you'll see that they are properly engineered. Some of the super cheap Chinese crap rocker arms use large diameter needle bearings and if you use them with low lift cams you might have a lubrication problem. There shouldn't be a problem with any of the high quality vendors such as T&D or Jesel.

I want to thank all of you again for your advice that comes from years of hands on real world knowledge.

Having a place like Moparts where we can share this knowledge and sometimes disagree is a great asset for the few of us that still love our Mopars.

There may be better or cheaper options for a fast car but no one can argue Mopar has and still makes the most interesting cars with attitude and power.

It is good to have networking with others that share the same passion.

That is also a fact.............

Thanks Guys

Thanks Andy

Most high end equipment uses needle bearings in oscillating configurations. I used to work plant maintenance at a Monsanto plant on very complex and precision fiber tow and drawtwist machinery. Bushed parts can't be machined to close enough tolerances to maintain alignment. While that may not truly matter on something like a rocker arm, it damn sure can't hurt. Bottom line..........it's BETTER

So basically you disagree with the engineering principle of using a needle bearing on a reciprocating shaft but have never seen any ill effects from doing so? What are your engineering credentials?
The anti body roll bar on my truck has needle bearings and is most certainly a reciprocating shaft, did I fudge up?? Do I need to knock them out and install bushings in their place? Bottom line, there are variables to be considered when using needle bearings on a reciprocating shaft which you are obviously not accounting for in your view, as long as the rotational distance on the reciprocating shaft is great enough to properly work the bearing there is no problem.
As far as a bushing costing more than a bearing, not sure how that is possible, any half azzed semi-skilled person with a lathe can make a bushing in minutes (only seconds if the process is fully automated) where a needle bearing requires high precision grinding and then assembly.

There have been billions of them in service, run for trillions of miles for trillions of hours, for over a century....... It's called a universal joint.

T&D and be done.

Was thinking the same thing...

It seems there are several different choices when it comes to moving or rotating parts, bushings, ball bearings, tapered bearings, needle bearings and caged needle bearings, pick your poison

Jesel makes their endurance rockers from steel with bushings.

What else can I say?

Do you have them on your race car and if so for what head. How was the geometry

Im not sure you can't machine a bushing to close enough tolerance, the question is, is it profitable.

There are things such as down time etc and also making parts to repair a machine that will is 50 years old.

Needle bearings have a place. Typical of the Internet world, some people have to fabricate [censored] and make up [censored] I didn't say. The man who taught me to never use needle bearings on a reciprocating shaft wan an engineer who designed machines for industry. Not one that I know of ever went out with needle bearings.

To compare a rocker arm with a ujoint is silly.

There is more to it that how far the rocker rotates. But I'll leave it here.

Do what you want. But 99.999% of the [censored] you buy is compromised because it's easier to do something then to do it right. It's about money.

What difference does it make if I have them?

If they stopped making aluminum bodied rockers and did them all in steel, the price would come down to where they would be more affordable. Simple isn't it? The other issue is, especially with cheap ass mopar guys who still think a stock block is a great deal won't buy any rocker over the cost of a set of HS, my least favorite rocker there is. Broke enough of them to know it's nearly impossible to get the geometry close for 8800 RPM without issues.

You can make it for a Chrysler but the cheap asses won't buy it. Guys still [censored] about W-2 rocker costs.


My current engine runs Norris stainless steel rockers. No needle bearings. Rocker geometry is pussy good.

FWIW my old B1MC deal had T&D rockers on it and still does. They have seen over 1000 passes at this point with right at 1100lbs of open pressure and never seen a failure. Oh yeah they have needle bearings too

The late winter peeing contest is in full force - must mean the racing season is just around the corner!

Just for what it is worth I am an Engineer and I run needle bearings!

Well them it must be right.

Again, why does Jesel make their endurance rockers out of steel? With bushings?

We all know that dirt bikes went to needle bearing because of cost. That was in print many times. Just like Honda using aluminum frames. They did it because aluminum was cheaper and more available than steel. They marketing guys had to sell it and they did.

It's the same thing with rockers. It's all marketing.

And, if your getting 1K plus passes from a set of rockers, are you give up performance? Would you expect aluminum rods to have that many life cycles? If the did, they'd be so big as to be worthless.

I'd bet there isn't a top ten PS car with needle bearings. Probably not many with aluminum rockers either.

On your last statement here you would be wrong

Originally Posted By DoubleD
The late winter peeing contest is in full force - must mean the racing season is just around the corner!

Just for what it is worth I am an Engineer and I run needle bearings!


Well them it must be right.

Again, why does Jesel make their endurance rockers out of steel? With bushings?



Maybe because they did not want to jump in the same market as everyone else and to make their product unique? Maybe it's not the best but it is different so they will get a different following. Does not PROVE that their design is better but different.

Move on - next subject please this one is getting boring.

That is clearly not a Snickers bar!!

So you know this for fact? That the top PS guys are using aluminum rockers?

I know what a nascar guy says on speed talk about what they run.

Would seeing them be good enough for you.. yes
I seen them when I was in the pits being in AJs
pit in Norwalk... and I actually picked one up
after asking if I could

My Hendrick sb2.2 stuff that I ran in a super dirt late model, had roller bearings on the valve tip wheel even.

According to the guy at Jesels 1-800 cam tech line that I talked to late last year they don't make the Jesel paired shaft 1.55 ratio rocker arms in any steel material at all that I already have on my 440-1 headed motor, aluminum only
T&D will make what I want in steel or aluminum, my choice The steel lead time and total costs are more but I will probably have them make my 1.75 ratio paired shaft rockers for my B1-MC heads in steel, with needle bearings on the shafts any ways

as was i, but the drive shaft has an angle built in, be it pinion angle [ ] or an offset to the left or right to promote the bearings to fully rotate around the shaft discouraging brinneling [sp ?] of the shaft. independent rears [think corvette] for a good last few years are back to a torque tube type of driveshaft because u joints are not needed for connection from engine to differential. good discussion, but you guys are confusing my old, confused mind more and more. keep this going, please.

I doubt he has them, feel free to post a pic if you do have them because the following taken directly from Jesel website for standard and optional features for their PRO STEEL SERIES SHAFT ROCKERS

Heat Treated Alloy Steel Body-STANDARD
Tool Steel Cup Adjuster-STANDARD
Tool Steel Ball Adjuster-OPTIONAL
Adjusterless Bronze Pushrod Seat-OPTIONAL
ARP 12pt Adjuster Nut-STANDARD
Needle Shaft Bearings-STANDARD
Centerless Ground .561” Shaft-STANDARD
.250” Wide Needle Nose Roller-STANDARD
MoHawk Beam-STANDARD
Profiled Rocker Tail-STANDARD
ARP Mounting Hardware-STANDARD
Custom Stand Configurations-STANDARD
Zero-Thrust Stand Assembly-STANDARD
Zero-Thrust Box Style Stand-OPTIONAL

My 99 Hemi, IE PRo Stock Hemi had needle bearing. We were just on the dyno Wednesday at a Pro Stock shop and they have needle bearing rockers as well, so I guess I know this for a fact. This is a team that has won including in 2016. As with mine they were WW Rockers and all had needles, they seem to be the rocker many teams run from what I've seen anyway. These were engines from Johnson(hemi) and Elite(drce). I have seen some steel rockers on Dodge stuff to but usually only on one side and they had needle bearings as well. So I guess the statement about pro stock not using them is not quite 100% correct.

Well then keep doing what you are doing.

I was going to call a few people but why bother? You guys are doing it so it must be right.

All I've said is I have never had an issue with a GOOD rocker with a bearing. And that MY 99 Hemi as well as a few other I know of are using them as well. I juts know what I have seen and done.

Someone just needs to take their ball and go home.

Unlike some on here who just blow smoke and talk [censored], I'll do some research. I no longer have the paper that discussed why not to use needle bearings on a reciprocating shaft, but it was more than just getting the needles to roll.

I realize the majority is always right.

Since I have done some actual testing, I don't give a shot what most guys do. There was ZERO power when I tested it. It would be nice if someone else tested it

Mad you are mad if you really believe manufacturers use bearings because are cheaper than bushings

What do you think about lifters with bushings? Once they figured out a material and how to get it oiled, many people switched, even though many gurus thought it a bad idea?

I also said it was marketing.

What did I miss??? I had to go change my diaper. Lol.

Completely wrong and has nothing to do with cost. Just your speculation same as your view on needle bearing rockers

with a guy who's handle is "Mad Scientist" I got to admit that's some quality trolling- unless he really believes his rants. Just got to his profile, click "ignore this user", and miss nothing.

Damn! Through all of this opinionated BS did the OP's question ever get answered? I'll say that I bought the T&D's for my -1 setup with a .690 lift cam and they have been flawless for three years on the division trail. Quality product and they PAY!

First set of roller rockers I ever saw were on a 331 SBC back in 1972. I asked the guy what the advantage was and his answer was so he could restrict the oil flow to a trickle to the top and keep more in the bottom where it was needed. That doesn't sound like a band-aid to me.