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Re: Best Holley Book for 4150 Performance Tuning?
[Re: DrCharles]
#2229597
01/07/17 06:46 PM
01/07/17 06:46 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 293
Spanaway, Washington State
patosmith
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 293
Spanaway, Washington State
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I have Vizard's book (the "new" 2013 edition) and it is worthwhile reading  That is the one I'm leaning towards. I was able to see sample pages online without buying the book and it looked like it had a lot of good information. I wanted to check into the Emmanuel book first since a few members have mentioned it.
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Re: Best Holley Book for 4150 Performance Tuning?
[Re: DrCharles]
#2229618
01/07/17 07:27 PM
01/07/17 07:27 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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I have Vizard's book (the "new" 2013 edition) and it is worthwhile reading can you post a pic of it. My Holley knowledge is borderline & I'm read his stuff before & was impressed
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Best Holley Book for 4150 Performance Tuning?
[Re: patosmith]
#2229684
01/07/17 09:09 PM
01/07/17 09:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,080
Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,080
Benton, IL.
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Personally, I don't think there is a book that does a really good job. Probably because tuning the idle and transition circuits gets real complicated real quick. And because carb tuning is as much about sensing what needs attention as it is about reading the O2. Main jets, power valves and PVCRs are not hard to get a handle on. But bleeds, slots, and emulsions are another matter entirely. And just to further complicate things, all those circuits and items come and go with most overlapping each other making it extremely difficult to understand what is causing what. It takes an enormous amount of time experimenting with different tweeks to see how your particular combo responds. That is AFTER a good amount of reading books and studying the different circuits of your carb. The best thing to do is to start with a carb that has a tune in it that is as close as possible to the correct tune that your combo wants. The farther off the initial tune is, the more circuits or items that will have to be corrected making the job just that much more difficult. Or you could contact someone like ThumperDart to get the tune close enough that you can tweek it on in without having to understand the entire low speed design of your carb.
Master, again and still
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Re: Best Holley Book for 4150 Performance Tuning?
[Re: patosmith]
#2229696
01/07/17 09:24 PM
01/07/17 09:24 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 287
PA
Harry's Taxi 2
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 287
PA
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I would suggest also exploring this site in addition to the book mentioned above. http://racingfuelsystems.myfunforum.org/index.php
'86 Maple Grove KOS Mopar low qualifier......true street legal with no power adders.
NOS-used when losing since 1940.
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Re: Best Holley Book for 4150 Performance Tuning?
[Re: patosmith]
#2229712
01/07/17 09:44 PM
01/07/17 09:44 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
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...
I seen a post on here recommending Emmanuel's book but I also found one by David Vizard.
Any recommendations?
I'm looking for one that will tell me what steps to take for tuning for performance.
I understand about jets, air bleeds, power valves ..
Normally I recommend starting with Urich and Fisher's Holley Carburetors and Manifolds because it provides a good foundation without being overwhelming. Its better than Emanual's version in my opinion because Urich was a Holley engineer so his descriptions are more accurate. Also the HP Books format allows more to get packed in. However in your case, neither probably have enough depth for what your looking for. Vizard's new Holley book is probably a better choice if you just want one. If you can get a used copy of Urich and Fisher in addition, you'll find a few gems in there. For example, the sidebar on throttle to transfer slot relationship is very clear on why and what to do to get it right. As noted above, Vizard's new Super Tune and Modify Holley Carburetor book is more thorough. Just be careful with generalizing too much from a specific example. Been there; done that. ouch. A specific area I'm not sure he gets into the subtleties of how an airbleed can do the opposite of what you think it will. StepsNot sure any one book will quite cover this. Generally start with the ignition curve and then work the idle circuit (including transition) first. Then the pros like to go next to the primary mains at cruise followed by WOT. However that can result in the primary mains being a bit lean for the WOT pass. In any event do the steady state conditions first and be prepared for several rounds as one system effects the next. Starting with idle - transition minimizes this because it will effect the mains more than the mains will effect the idle. One real difficulty most of us have to overcome is fully accepting that the engine is on "idle" for most street driving except interstates. Search here for threads on carbs like yours. These are also useful and the books they come from are cited. AFR Relationship to Throttle Opening (Load) Importance of Position of Idle Feed Restriction editPS. I agree with all the posts above from Dave, Oscar and DrCharles which I didn't see until after posting. As far as rich at idle, as you dig deeper you'll be able to determine whether this is a problem or not.
Last edited by Mattax; 01/08/17 11:00 AM.
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Re: Best Holley Book for 4150 Performance Tuning?
[Re: patosmith]
#2231404
01/10/17 03:37 AM
01/10/17 03:37 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
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I would like to get mine dialed in close enough so I can get it to a performance shop that has the know how and a possibly a dyno. The Dyno is good for WOT. If the dyno has a load cell and the owner is pretty sharp, the dyno can be used for some other stuff. But the low throttle position stuff you'll do off the dyno. Since you have the interest, don't be surprised if you become the guy with the know how. Anyway, get the idle and street stuff running cleaner. Your plan is good. Just be prepared for a journey.
Right now the plugs are sooty. I have it close on idle around 12.5 AFR or so but just off idle (around 1500 RPM) it goes fat. About 10.8 to 11.2 on my AF gauge. The carb is out of the box 950 street HP without any tweeks. I haven't checked manifold vacuum yet so could part of the problem be the power valve?
Not likely. The idle restriction is much smaller than the main jet. It doesn't matter if there is more fuel available (power valve opening) because the main jets are not restricting. See post here for link to video. Bruce 'Shrinker" Robertson outlined the situations where the main well pressure is effected. But the simple version is that carbs aren't normally that way. What is probably happening is that the manifold vacuum is under 14" at idle and then going up as the throttle is opening. The carb will need to deal with this - its pretty common on modified engines. Vacuum gage will be a big help. Its a good indicator of load and therefore an indirect way to estimate throttle position. Lots of things effect the idle mix. Idle air bleed, idle restriction are the ones we'ld like to use. But transition slot acts as a variable feed and air bleed, so throttle position comes into play. Fuel level effects pressure so that can make a difference. Also whether it is two corner or four corner idle. I'd poke around the racing fuels website and see if anyone has mapped out that same exact carb (list number). If not, then add that to your todo list. With that you might get a sense of what probably needs to be done to start moving in the right direction.
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Re: Best Holley Book for 4150 Performance Tuning?
[Re: Mattax]
#2231543
01/10/17 12:51 PM
01/10/17 12:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,080
Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,080
Benton, IL.
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 with Mattax. The transitions before main jet actuation is absolutely the most complicated and difficult area to tune. And is the area most likely to need attention out of the box. Depending on how far off it is will determine how much attention. Most of the time, the main jets and their bleeds are not far off and can usually be brought in by testing at the track. In order to clean up your low speed, you have 3 routes to choose from; A)have someone else re-calibrate it, B)have someone else try to tell you how to re-calibrate it, or C)buy the drill bits, taps, bleeds, jets, and books and start experimenting. I will offer a shortcut that has worked well for me. Strip out some individual strands from some electrical wire. Mike them and assort them by diameter. Since your carb is too rich, you probably need to reduce fuel flow somewhere. You can try a wire in the T-slot restrictions and then a wire in the idle restrictions to see how it responds. Now wires in restrictions is a bit like using and axe for a scalpel job, but will quickly show you what needs attention. Then you can buy the drill bits, taps and bleeds to fine tune those areas.
Master, again and still
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Re: Best Holley Book for 4150 Performance Tuning?
[Re: patosmith]
#2231606
01/10/17 02:11 PM
01/10/17 02:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,094
central texas
krautrock
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,094
central texas
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poke around the racingfuelsystems website or just google holley idle feed restrictions. assuming you have yr prim thorttle plate in the right spot, leaning out the 1500 rpm range probably only will involve a smaller idle feed restrictor (or sometimes called idle jet, or IFR). do the metering blocks have replaceable IFR's ? they will be up high most likely, in the upper outside corners. you probably want to go down in size about .002, so say .035 to .033 you can also hone in on the afr's some by going larger on your idle bleed which should be adjustable on that carb. this is just a page i pulled from a websearch, it shows the IFR location in most holley blocks. http://tmpcarbs.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html
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Re: Best Holley Book for 4150 Performance Tuning?
[Re: krautrock]
#2231632
01/10/17 02:53 PM
01/10/17 02:53 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
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this is just a page i pulled from a websearch The pictures are nice but be careful with anything from Troy  He won't acknowledge what he doesn't know but continues to argue ad infinitum. It got so bad he was tossed from Speedtalk forum. Isn't an idle AFR of 12.5:1 fat to start with? It depends greatly on the specifics. Considering the OPs combo, its ballpark. See link to AFR-Throttle Position/Load in my earlier post.
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Re: Best Holley Book for 4150 Performance Tuning?
[Re: patosmith]
#2232020
01/11/17 12:42 AM
01/11/17 12:42 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 587
IL . usa
cjs69mope
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 587
IL . usa
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Question IS your carb a true 950 size or a 750 size bowls?
I ask this because alot of people don't realize that the 950 is actually smaller than a good 850.
a 750 size would be causing you more trouble.
I would start by enlarging the idle air bleeds and see what your air fuel is at idle i would shoot for 13.0 afr.
then restrict the idle feed to around .028 or.026 and see where you are .
my car used to run like yours and i did this and now i am 12.5 pretty much all the time cruising.
make sure you are idling on the idle circuit that is a must and most important thing.
I would also start with 84 primary main jet and 90 secondary main.
jetting affects the whole picture.
You have a A/F so you will see the improvements or not and then know which way to go.
Don't put a very low opening power valve like 4.0. run vac gauge into the car and tape to dash.See what the motor wants. I bet it would be good with a 8.5 opening point that motor needs fuel enrichment asap after you are off the T slot or transition.
measure the size of the pvcr and most likely open to min .070in
the bigger the pvcr the smaller the main jet can be the cleaner the idle will be to a point.
this is just a suggested starting point you will see real quick if the changes made are improving things,
1969 Dodge Charger
1969 Dodge Superbee
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Re: Best Holley Book for 4150 Performance Tuning?
[Re: cjs69mope]
#2232219
01/11/17 12:19 PM
01/11/17 12:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,080
Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,080
Benton, IL.
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Question IS your carb a true 950 size or a 750 size bowls?
.... What are you saying here?
I ask this because alot of people don't realize that the 950 is actually smaller than a good 850.
a 750 size would be causing you more trouble.
.... Why would a 750 cause more trouble? It is the tune in the carb not the size that is what the OP needs to address. The process would be the same no matter the CFM.
I would start by enlarging the idle air bleeds and see what your air fuel is at idle i would shoot for 13.0 afr.
then restrict the idle feed to around .028 or.026 and see where you are .
.... I would not start by opening up the IABs. That may have unintended consequences. Start by taking fuel out.
my car used to run like yours and i did this and now i am 12.5 pretty much all the time cruising.
.... If you are cruising at 12.5, you are probably WAY too rich. And there are very real consequences for a cruise that rich.
make sure you are idling on the idle circuit that is a must and most important thing.
I would also start with 84 primary main jet and 90 secondary main.
.... How can you know that when you say that he may not even have a true 950? It is way too early to start messing with the main circuit. You are suggesting too many changes at once. Keep it simple, one change at a time.
jetting affects the whole picture.
.... Leave the mains for later.
You have a A/F so you will see the improvements or not and then know which way to go.
Don't put a very low opening power valve like 4.0. run vac gauge into the car and tape to dash.See what the motor wants. I bet it would be good with a 8.5 opening point that motor needs fuel enrichment asap after you are off the T slot or transition.
measure the size of the pvcr and most likely open to min .070in
.... Again, too many changes at once. Leave the main and enrichment circuits alone until the transitions are close.
the bigger the pvcr the smaller the main jet can be the cleaner the idle will be to a point.
.... No it won't. The IFRs will be somewhere in the .030 range while the mains will be somewhere in the .100 range. How do you see .100 impacting .030?
this is just a suggested starting point you will see real quick if the changes made are improving things, Suffice to say that I agree with almost nothing in this post and recommend that these suggestions be ignored. 
Master, again and still
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