I promised myself not to get into these discussions anymore cause I feel like I am just spinning my wheels. We have a difference of opinions. I am not sure where we have common ground other than we like Mopars. Your Watermelon Daytona is one of my favourite cars.

But where you see it as saved I see it as not only an A12 was lost but it ended up taking another Road Runner with it. I can't control what other people choose to do with their property but if you asked my opinion I would have rather seen the numbers to have stayed intact on the donor car and just the parts switched over. I could dig that and would have found the car interesting. With it now, not soo much.

Again I just don't see why switching over the numbers is important to you guys who claim not to be interested in numbers, investments, money etc...I must be missing something.

Dave

I'm reading that as the owner of the A12 wanted everything including numbers switched over.

I know of two very desirable Mopars close to me that have had everything including hidden vin's moved to donor unibodies many years ago. Both cars are truly awesome and a pro would be hard pressed to tell. Somewhere along the way, the truth about how they survived got left behind. None of my business and the cars are being enjoyed very much so I leave it alone. These cars are all over the place. I believe it's just the way things are headed to save some of them.

Rebodying has been around since man put wheels to an axle

Dave, for some they "need" the numbers, the "numbers" are their part of self satisfaction in a rebody/restoration I guess, for me, like I stated, the only numbers that matter are the ones the RMV/DMV "likes", or the ones that I have a clean title to, and or a vehicle they came with...

Someone on here once "challenged" me that I never used "numbers" from a /6,318 car on a vehicle of so called "greater value" numbers wise, I told them they lost that bet, I have used /6,318 numbers on some big blk higher end vehicles, because I truly don't care about the "numbers" in the sense that most restorer/investors/collectors do, if I buy a car much like the OP is interested in, my priority is a set of clean numbers to title/tag the vehicle, if "high end numbers" fall into my hand, so be it, usually my desired builds are already planned, long before the vehicle is found, personally I've never built a vehicle to "found" numbers, but I do know of plenty that have been built this way, often for personal reasons, not immediate resale

Mike

The only thing you seem to be missing Dave is the whole point of this thread. The OP has a car he wants to rebuild but it has no numbers.

This statement really doesn't make any sense. You/ya'll/he took another car and put his running gear in it and maybe the dash frame and the numbers, with an electrical fire significant enough to destroy a car, even in the trunk, smoked the interior so reasonable assumption that was replaced, reasonable assumption that it took out the gauges and all of the harnesses, he might have been able to move over the front fenders, grille and front suspension, maybe front rims but again if it destroyed the car from the rear the rear rims were probably warped. So what exactly of "his car" was left, really no more his car than the VW down the street.

Again to the original car of the thread, the reason the OP wants to save the car is he feels it's something special, EL1 4 speed, putting bogus numbers on the car loses all it's original identity.

It would be nice if these cars got a rebuilt/salvage title then they would be branded so unsuspecting buyers would know. I thini I would be more open to it if that was the case. If people were truly wanting to be honest about what they were doing they would report it to any applicable registry to hopefully avoid the truth getting lost.

The only reason to change numbers is to deceive someone, even if it's the DMV, there is an intention to deceive.

How bout moving your hidden stamped vins over to new replacement panels during a complete resto using framerails, upper and lower cowls, fender aprons, floor pans front and rear, trunk floor and drops, roof, quarters and tail light panel? Rebody or repairs? Intent to deceive or or not?

I personally wouldn't go to that extent on a car, almost any car. Granted if a trunk gutter is good I would reuse it along with any other part but I would not just move the number section over but that's me I realize it is done regularly. And yes when just the number section is moved over it is in attempt to deceive in my view.

Age old question, at what point is it no longer the original car. I have personally come to the conclusion that it is the passenger compartment/cage. Cowl, firewall, a-pillars, rockers, roof frame and rear quarter window structure area, you get my thought. Then I have to ask myself what if just one rocker needs replaced, or the cowl but the rear section is fine and then what about all the cars that were back halfed as a result of a collision and insurance repair early on. The water on that is very muddy, complete body replacement is not muddy.

I'll try to stay out from here but would like to know the opinions to my first questions.

Swapping VINs is not acceptable.


Slavery has been 'around' for thousands of years but it will never be 'right'.

So, your argument is invalid. Time spent doing wrong will never make the wrong right nor acceptable.

The OP wanted a solution for a car with no VIN - which can be done legally as suggested on the first page of this thread. Apply to the DMV / BMV for a state issued VIN & be done with it - legally.

Anyone suggesting otherwise is just damaging their own reputation worse than it already is.

Quite frankly, I am astonished that Tom allows members that encourage felonies over & over again.

Im not really sure but I dont think asking questions or voicing opinions on rebodying and moving vins over is encouraging felonies. Certainly not in this particular thread, but I believe its a topic that many of us Mopar enthusiasts should talk about. Its hard to really draw a definitive line about this. Maybe alot of hemicuda ex-race car restorers should be in jail right now. Were they doing the right thing? The wrong thing?

Actually the OP wants a dash tag and a title. The car has a VIN

Installing a dash and VIN from another and calling it good has been suggested in this thread.

I'm pretty sure that is illegal in all 50 States

I think I should have worded that a little different. When i say certainly not in this thread, I meant not talking about our questions and opinions on rebodying. We should take it into another thread. Sorry.

I just have alot of questions about the whole right and wrong of repairing and rebodying these cars in order to save them. Im actually taking it away from the original topic. I might start up a different thread about it. Sorry guys.

Why? They all revert to this thread. All the same cast of characters

Funny,factory has two bare shells,one gets tags for a lowly slant six,the other a Hemi and suddenly one is a highly sought after,the other just a low dollar turd yet they both started out exactly the same.

What if a guy at the factory accidentally put tags on the wrong car and later had to change them? Or stamped the wrong numbers? Factory error now worth tens times more?

The ONLY reason for VIN swapping and not using a state issued VIN after the original is gone is MONEY. Plain and simple. Your INTENT to defraud may not be there but 5-6 owners down the road when the story is neglected to be told, what happens then? A big, nasty lawsuit and Feds getting involved, that's what!

Some of you complain about red tape and the DMV, well that's just an excuse to take the easy way out. Have fun with court costs and legal bills when you get sued for misrepresentation.

Your quote sounds more like urban myth, or scare tactics employed by goody 2 shoer's to dissuade said action(s), your comparing the action of outright high dollar deceit vs placing some low end valued numbers to a low end valued vehicle, both long forgotten, where's this "money"?

Perhaps if someone took you for HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars or MILLIONS, you'd have the resources to recoup a judgement, but we're talking your basic overvalued Mopar junk here that everyone thinks is big bucks, even in the real world where high end collectors suspect they've purchased a vehicle that is "suspect" in some way, shape or form, it moves from their collections via trades, auctions, private sales, etc DAMHIK

No the two bodies are not the same. Some very specific Hemi only parts in the frame work of the Hemi car. They only made 50 of the Hemi's for example versus maybe 5000 of the slant 6 cars. Hence the difference in value. Moving the Hemi tags and numbers to the slant 6 body devalues the remaining 49 Hemi cars.

So I'll check back with you guys in a couple years to see where you are on this. Stay at it, I sure you can come to consensus !