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Re: Flow Testing on 273 or 318 Heads
[Re: mr_340]
#2196796
11/15/16 03:29 PM
11/15/16 03:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,513
So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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Wow, #6 Nick Reiter is from div one. That's quite a haul to go to that race.
That's a real nice running 440-6 '71 Charger he's got.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Flow Testing on 273 or 318 Heads
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2196859
11/15/16 05:09 PM
11/15/16 05:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,505
DFW
mr_340
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Wow, #6 Nick Reiter is from div one. That's quite a haul to go to that race.
That's a real nice running 440-6 '71 Charger he's got. They had a nice write up in the National Drugstore about Nick's Charger. He bought it brand new. It was in the issue they handed out at the races. I mailed it to a friend of mine that has several Chargers. He doesn't live near a speed shop or track that would have a copy. I think Nick's gotten the Charger sorted out. The stocker guys flog their cars for decades.
Floyd Lippencott IV
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Re: Flow Testing on 273 or 318 Heads
[Re: mr_340]
#2196863
11/15/16 05:14 PM
11/15/16 05:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,513
So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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What's the valve lift for the combo you're planning?
Solid lifters I assume.
I would do all the seat R&D on some scrap 318 head to figure out what works.
While the 920's are a little better than the later stuff, the port layout is very similar, so whatever you find works on the later head should also work on the 920 head.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Flow Testing on 273 or 318 Heads
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2196955
11/15/16 09:27 PM
11/15/16 09:27 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,272
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
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Bend,OR USA
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NHRA, depending on the division and the current NHRA leadership, uses a lot of politics in their decision making on who gets torn down a lot and who doesn't in most sportsman classes  I've seen a illegal stock class car get protested at a national event and the then head of NHRA tech allowed the racer to stay in quoting the rules on protest and he offered a sorry excuse that his tech. people should have caught the problem in tech. so the racer and his father could fix it to make it legal  (I'm sure it was legal when it went through tech.  ) I found out later from a NHRA office worker that the father regularly took a lot of the NHRA brass out to dinner and a night on the town In Hollywood  I remember a very successful NHRA SS racer back in the early 1970s saying "It ain't cheating until you get caught"
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Flow Testing on 273 or 318 Heads
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2197052
11/15/16 11:28 PM
11/15/16 11:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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DFW
mr_340
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What's the valve lift for the combo you're planning? Solid lifters I assume.
I would do all the seat R&D on some scrap 318 head to figure out what works. While the 920's are a little better than the later stuff, the port layout is very similar, so whatever you find works on the later head should also work on the 920 head. Some Specs from NHRA I put together. 1966 Dodge Dart K/SA-L/SA Dodge Dart 270, 2 Door Sedan, 111” wheelbase 13.47 pounds/HP Minimum Weight = 13.47 #/HP*210 HP + 170 # =2999# Engine Specifications from NHRA 235HP 273 CP 10.50:1 CR 1-4BBL Cart AFB-4119S/SM, 4120S/AUTO 2536770 2536563 Carb sizes – 1437x1563/1063x1250 NOTES: B,6,14 6 - Alt carbs - 4121S/SM 4122S/AUTO 14 – Alt intake manifold 2535583, 2536536, 2533771, 2531915, 2836139 B = 2465315,2658920,2843675,3671585,3769973,4323302 Head Casting Nos. 235HP 273 Dodge Plymouth Deck Height .011 Dome .140”, 16.1 cc Valve Sizes 1780/1500 Valve Lift .420”/.430” Head Gasket Thick..020” Valve Spring Outer Only, Mechanical Solid Lifter, Rocker Ratio 1.5:1 Chamber Volume 57.3cc Cylinder Head Volumes Head # Intake CC's Max Exhaust CC's Max Manufacturer 302 162 70 Mopar 315 130 59 Mopar Pistons NHRA Legal 273 65-67 235HP Min. Compression Ht. 1.745”, Pin Diameter 0.984”, Ring Thickness 5/64, 5/64, 3/16, Top Ring to Quench Dist. 0.280”, Min. Piston Wt. 547G, Min. Rod Wt. 655G, Min. Pin Wt. 90G, Min. Ring Wt. 43g, Min. Rotating Assy Wt. 1335g ROSS 57989 CP PISTONS M14-CP I have a pair of 675 318 heads I can experiment with. My friend with the Chargers gave me a pair of them. I didn't see any port volumes listed for the 675 and 920 heads. I would think they should be close to the early 315 heads. Cab, I plan on running a legal car even if it's slower. Cheating to run fast doesn't prove anything. Having to pull the whole engine at Indy and have no engine stand doesn't thrill me at all. There was a post on Classracer about that happening. The guy had to pull the pan off with the engine on a pallet or something. You'd think they could afford some cheap engine stands.
Floyd Lippencott IV
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Re: Flow Testing on 273 or 318 Heads
[Re: mr_340]
#2197145
11/16/16 01:22 AM
11/16/16 01:22 AM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 608
TN
1DGEMAN
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 608
TN
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Get on Classracer.com register and use the classification guide that Dwight Southerland has there.
Use the 302 heads and the LD4B manifold they flow much better. Talk to other people running your combination.It will save you a lot of money. The Bushmakers have a very competitive 273 also Paul Wong. Unless you are building a killer car buying all those valves was a waste of money. Sorry to be so blunt. If on the other hand you just want to play on the flow bench you may learn something for the future.
Stock eliminator is a lot of fun and hard work. I have been doing it on and off since 1972 and set many records. Enjoy.
Real Men shift for themselves
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Re: Flow Testing on 273 or 318 Heads
[Re: mr_340]
#2197346
11/16/16 02:27 PM
11/16/16 02:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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DFW
mr_340
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I've been on Classracer for 15 years or so. I've been on Dwight's deal before but didn't think there was anything new there. Went back today and he's done a good job compiling all the info in one or two places. The Dart isn't in his classification page. He only has the Coronet and Charger from Page 1. The Dart info is on Page 3. I have already compiled all the info from the various NHRA pages (classification, engine blueprint, piston, rod, cylinder head volumes, etc.) into a Word document. Mine doesn't update automatically unlike Dwights.
I already bought two LD4Bs, one from Terry Dye and one from Tony's parts from an ad on Moparts. Dwight had some port volumes on the other heads that are legal (675, etc), just not sure they are accurate. They had them down as the same volumes as the X head, 915/587 head volumes. Not sure I believe that. I hadn't planned to flow those 675 heads, but I might as well drag them along to my engine/machinist guy in Tampa. If I find some 302s, I'll buy a set to check them out.
As far as all the valves, in any testing of variables, only one data point is best. This applies to any variable in tuning an engine or car. If you test 1000 variables, only one combination is best. In essence, you wasted all that time and money on the other 999 variables. If you can get info from other racers, maybe they give you what they found to be the best. You have no idea what they tested previously. It's probably a very good starting point though. I figure the 1.78" intakes and the slightly larger 1.81" BBM exhaust valves I bought can be used for flow testing on the BBM exhausts. I may end up with a collection of odd ball valves for flow testing. The AMC 1.78" intake valve looks promising as it's more of a nail head valve. I'm sure we will have Manley make a custom valve for us. My machinist found some interesting results on the MP aluminum Magnum heads he did for another friend. They tested a bunch of valves on it and finally found one the heads liked.
I've talked to Paul a bit on Classracer. I didn't get much info out of him when I was thinking about a 318 2bbl combo for my 1969 Barracuda. This Dart already had a rollcage, so I didn't want to put a rollbar in an original 340 car. The 318 fit in a lower class that didn't need the rollbar. Some of my SS racer friends thought that was a bad idea with 160MPH CJs and COPOs and Drag Packs running in the other lane. I haven't connected to Bushmaker. I thought he was running a 1973/4 Cuda with the 340/360TQ combo. Didn't he have the Brown Sugar Cuda?
Floyd Lippencott IV
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Re: Flow Testing on 273 or 318 Heads
[Re: mr_340]
#2197349
11/16/16 02:39 PM
11/16/16 02:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,513
So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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The NHRA port volumes are really more used to determine the limit for how big they can be after porting in SS.
If you start checking the runner volume of unmodified 318 heads you find most are well under the 162cc limit.
Since you won't be porting them, they will just be whatever they are.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Flow Testing on 273 or 318 Heads
[Re: mr_340]
#2197356
11/16/16 03:07 PM
11/16/16 03:07 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 608
TN
1DGEMAN
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mopar
Joined: Feb 2006
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TN
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Bushmaker runs a Volare/roadrunner but he built his daughter Angela's 273 4bbl Valiant. They run pretty strong.
6273 K/SA Angela Bushmaker, Buckley WA, '65 Valiant 11.747 12.65 -0.903
If you really want to have fun put a stick in your car. Contrary to what all the sheep say it is cheaper and easier than a slush box.
Last edited by 1DGEMAN; 11/16/16 03:25 PM.
Real Men shift for themselves
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Re: Flow Testing on 273 or 318 Heads
[Re: mr_340]
#2197357
11/16/16 03:08 PM
11/16/16 03:08 PM
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DFW
mr_340
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NHRA shows the 315 head to be 130cc on the intake. For some reason NHRA shows the 302 and 308 heads to be in the 160cc range. The port volume will increase somewhat depending on the "valve job". We can always cut the intake and exhaust flanges back a little, but since NHRA doesn't post any volumes, I doubt that we will. It might depend on how much we deck the block and heads. Not really close to that point now. I bought three blocks last year, one was a short block. I have another 273 crank from my old Darts engine and another forged 318. I have a 5.2L Magnum crank. It's cast, but I've heard some stocker guys run the cast cranks since they tend to be lighter than the forged steel cranks.
My machinist didn't like the Ross pistons. He said they were too hard, so we will probably buy the CP pistons. Funny the old TRW pistons aren't legal anymore. Those are nearly impossible to find anyway. I think Badger used to have a legal piston too many years back.
Floyd Lippencott IV
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Re: Flow Testing on 273 or 318 Heads
[Re: 1DGEMAN]
#2197361
11/16/16 03:24 PM
11/16/16 03:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,505
DFW
mr_340
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Bushmaker runs a Volare/roadrunner but he built his daughter Angela's 273 4bbl Valiant. They run pretty strong. If you really want to have fun put a stick in your car. Contrary to what all the sheep say it is cheaper and easier than a slush box. 6 6273 K/SA Angela Bushmaker, Auburn WA, '65 Valiant 11.782 12.65 -0.868 That was from two years ago at the Seattle event. I'm glad they are on the west coast, and she's in K/SA. I thought Washington state would be in Division 7 instead of 6. Sounds like Bill has that combo well sorted. I'll see about trying to contact him. I think Paul always ran the 2bbl engine in B-body cars, mostly the R-U/SA contingent in wagons.
Floyd Lippencott IV
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Re: Flow Testing on 273 or 318 Heads
[Re: mr_340]
#2197367
11/16/16 03:34 PM
11/16/16 03:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,326
fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
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fredericksburg,va
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I've been on Classracer for 15 years or so. I've been on Dwight's deal before but didn't think there was anything new there. Went back today and he's done a good job compiling all the info in one or two places. The Dart isn't in his classification page. He only has the Coronet and Charger from Page 1. The Dart info is on Page 3. I have already compiled all the info from the various NHRA pages (classification, engine blueprint, piston, rod, cylinder head volumes, etc.) into a Word document. Mine doesn't update automatically unlike Dwights.
I already bought two LD4Bs, one from Terry Dye and one from Tony's parts from an ad on Moparts. Dwight had some port volumes on the other heads that are legal (675, etc), just not sure they are accurate. They had them down as the same volumes as the X head, 915/587 head volumes. Not sure I believe that. I hadn't planned to flow those 675 heads, but I might as well drag them along to my engine/machinist guy in Tampa. If I find some 302s, I'll buy a set to check them out.
As far as all the valves, in any testing of variables, only one data point is best. This applies to any variable in tuning an engine or car. If you test 1000 variables, only one combination is best. In essence, you wasted all that time and money on the other 999 variables. If you can get info from other racers, maybe they give you what they found to be the best. You have no idea what they tested previously. It's probably a very good starting point though. I figure the 1.78" intakes and the slightly larger 1.81" BBM exhaust valves I bought can be used for flow testing on the BBM exhausts. I may end up with a collection of odd ball valves for flow testing. The AMC 1.78" intake valve looks promising as it's more of a nail head valve. I'm sure we will have Manley make a custom valve for us. My machinist found some interesting results on the MP aluminum Magnum heads he did for another friend. They tested a bunch of valves on it and finally found one the heads liked.
I've talked to Paul a bit on Classracer. I didn't get much info out of him when I was thinking about a 318 2bbl combo for my 1969 Barracuda. This Dart already had a rollcage, so I didn't want to put a rollbar in an original 340 car. The 318 fit in a lower class that didn't need the rollbar. Some of my SS racer friends thought that was a bad idea with 160MPH CJs and COPOs and Drag Packs running in the other lane. I haven't connected to Bushmaker. I thought he was running a 1973/4 Cuda with the 340/360TQ combo. Didn't he have the Brown Sugar Cuda? Aren't those LD4Bs aluminum? Didn't know you could use those.
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Re: Flow Testing on 273 or 318 Heads
[Re: mr_340]
#2197376
11/16/16 03:58 PM
11/16/16 03:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Surprised me too. I thought the 340 AVS intake was great, but then looked up the other part number. I've got several 340 intakes, but gave my old LD4B I had to a friend for his 318 about 30 some years ago. I got rid of the 273 and 318 parts when I started collecting 340 pieces in the 1980s. Now I'm going back. Since NHRA defactored the 273-235 down to 210 HP, and we get the LD4B, it should run pretty decent. I figure it will take about 350 HP to get the Dart down to 12 flat (-.70 under). Seems like a lot to squeeze out of a 273. Maybe 300 HP to run the index, so need more than 300 HP to qualify.
Floyd Lippencott IV
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Re: Flow Testing on 273 or 318 Heads
[Re: mr_340]
#2197422
11/16/16 05:23 PM
11/16/16 05:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,513
So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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302 heads are way smaller than 308 heads. You won't need a burrett to figure that out..... Just put them next to each other.
Also, you don't have to run under the index to qualify.
You just can't dial any slower than the index.
When my friend went to his first event running in stock the car was just off the index.
Ran 12.10 on a 12.00.
Lost first round with the 12.00 dial when it wouldn't run the number.
After a bunch of testing and getting the car sorted out it ended up going 10.97 years later.
First GTO stocker in the 10's.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Flow Testing on 273 or 318 Heads
[Re: mr_340]
#2197466
11/16/16 06:34 PM
11/16/16 06:34 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 305
CA
David Lee
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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CA
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what do you all think about the two barrel setup for a 67 cuda?
Ah...so many pedestrians, so little time...
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Re: Flow Testing on 273 or 318 Heads
[Re: mr_340]
#2197489
11/16/16 07:16 PM
11/16/16 07:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,513
So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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You'd have to look at what it competes against in the same class.
If there are any combos running the same class with 4bbl carbs I'd probably go another route.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Flow Testing on 273 or 318 Heads
[Re: mr_340]
#2197533
11/16/16 08:36 PM
11/16/16 08:36 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 305
CA
David Lee
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There are very few cars running in R/SA and staying away from Paul wong who runs in Q/SA usually should not be that big of deal.
Ah...so many pedestrians, so little time...
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Re: Flow Testing on 273 or 318 Heads
[Re: David Lee]
#2197639
11/16/16 11:31 PM
11/16/16 11:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,202
Park Forest, IL
slantzilla
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
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Park Forest, IL
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what do you all think about the two barrel setup for a 67 cuda? Mike was helping a guy with a 318 2bbl combo. They finally got it to run about .3 under and then the NHRA hit all the indexes .3 and killed him. The 2bbl carb is a tough one. It is small.
"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
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Re: Flow Testing on 273 or 318 Heads
[Re: mr_340]
#2197659
11/16/16 11:44 PM
11/16/16 11:44 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 608
TN
1DGEMAN
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Feb 2006
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TN
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There is a reason they run the 1965 273 2bbl it has a larger carb.
Bushmaker is the person that got the LD4B manifold approved by NHRA.
Real Men shift for themselves
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Re: Flow Testing on 273 or 318 Heads
[Re: slantzilla]
#2197716
11/17/16 12:38 AM
11/17/16 12:38 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 305
CA
David Lee
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this going to be the 273 with the two barrel. i wish the compression was the same for both so i could use the same short block. The pistons for the 4 barrel are now only available from ross and cp at $175 per piston. And findinhg an original set, i think would at but impossible.
Ah...so many pedestrians, so little time...
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