Flow Testing on 273 or 318 Heads

Anyone do any flow testing on 273/318 heads? I picked up some "920" 273 heads for a Stock Eliminator project at a swap meet. I've ordered an assortment of valves to flow test the different shapes to see what works the best.

Some I got from Rock Auto, OEM replacement stuff, some Manley BBM 1.81" exhaust valves that I will cut down to the stock 1.78" size, also Milodon and MP valves in the same size. Ferrea had some 6000 series valves for the 318 sizes. I even found some GM valves with the 3/8" stems and 1.50" for the exhaust. I bought one each of the valves and so far I spent more money on the valves than I did on the heads.

I thought I'd see if anyone found a good valve in case I missed one. I can't go to the smaller stems (11/32", 5/16") in stock.

i am also building up a 273 stock eliminator to run in my 67 cuda. what combo are you going to run?

I haven't looked at the tech sheets for those motors, but on most Mopars, the heads get superceded, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if the "302" 318 heads are legal.

Edit: I just checked the sheet.....looks like 302's are legal.
I don't know if they're any better or not in that application though, but the better chamber might be worth something.

A friend was building a 1966 Dart for SS, then got a deal on a GM SS/GT car and moved to the dark side. He made me a deal on the Dart (the 1967 Barracuda is a better choice with bigger wheelwells in the back). It has a roll cage in it already and the 2800# SS springs. I'm hoping it can be a "dime rocket", but I'm sure it will cost more than a dime and may not be a rocket. Hopefully it will run decent.

The 302 heads are legal. I got the 920 heads cheap at a swap meet, but will buy some 302s if I can get them at a reasonable price. The 340 AVS intake and the Edelbrock LD4B are legal replacements for the flat 4bbl intake. I bought a 273 AFB carb off Terry Dye in MI. The Dart falls at the bottom of K/SA, but will most likely run in L/SA. I paid $50 for the heads and just spent $280 on an assortment of valves to flow test. I went through the Summit site and ordered one of every valve that was a 3/8" stem and around the stock 1.78"/1.50" sizes. Ferrea has some 6000 series valves and they were the most expensive.

I have some max effort 1.88 1.6 valve 302 casting heads from modern cylinder head that flowed around 220 CFM if I remember correctly. He said they were done for some kind of SS class or something, the rocker stands are milled flat, everything is CNC ported chambers and every thing... if someone needs em they should PM me, I bought em for a project that never got done.

Those would be good for a SS engine (318?). The NHRA spec for the 302 and 308 ports are the same for both heads (160cc on the intake if I remember right). They won't be legal for Stock though. I have to stick with the 1.78"/1.50" plus some tolerance (I think it is +.005"/-.015"). NHRA has opened up the valve job to "any valve job". I've tried to get a ruling on that, but nothing. I assume that means up to the guide now. If I could figure out how to do the valve job all the way to the intake face, those heads might be legal for stock.

Don't you still have to have a 45* seat?

No.

And........ Unless you set a record........no one will ever see it anyway.

He had any valve job in quotes. I'd have to see a rule book but I doubted they let stockers use other than factory seat angles.

I'm sure some have done it. Like you say, unless you set a record....

I've had some heads on my flowbench that were built for STOCK class and what they do would surprise most people. I know I was totally shocked.

Last I saw, the wording regarding the valve and seat angles remaining the same as factory had been removed from that paragraph in the rule book.
Now it's just "any valve job accepted".

The "valve angle" has to be stock...... This is the angle of the valve in the head(15deg, etc), not the angle of the seat on the valve.

The bottom line is, they want less stuff to inspect at tech.

There is definitely some ambiguity in that phrase!

From the NHRA Rulebook 2016:

"CYLINDER HEADS
Must be correct casting number for year and horsepower claimed,
per NHRA Technical Bulletins or NHRA accepted. Porting,
polishing, welding, epoxying and acid-porting prohibited.
Combustion-chamber modifications prohibited. Cylinder heads are
additionally restricted in that they must retain original-size valves at
original angles +/- 1 degree and must be able to hold original
cylinder-head volume per NHRA Specifications. Runner volumes
may not exceed the current Super Stock cylinder-head volumes as
listed on www.NHRARacer.com. Regardless of the poured volume
measurement, any modifications to intake or exhaust runners
prohibited. Any evidence of modifications from the original castings
will be grounds for disqualifications as determined by NHRA in
NHRA’s sole and absolute discretion. Any aftermarket steel valve
permitted, must retain stock head and stem diameters. Only
engines OEM-equipped with sodium-filled valves may use sodiumfilled
replacement valves. Titanium prohibited. Hardened keepers
permitted. Lash caps prohibited. Valve-diameter tolerance: +.005-
inch or -.015-inch from NHRA Specs. The following are prohibited:
spark-plug adapters; any grinding in ports or combustion
chambers; removal of any flashings; sandblasting or any other
modification to cylinder head; any film coating of intake and
exhaust runners; any film coating of combustion chamber. Runners
and combustion chamber must retain OEM appearance. Final
acceptance as determined by NHRA in NHRA’s sole and absolute
discretion. External modifications prohibited. Intake side of head
may not be cut into any part of valve cover bolt holes. Valve-cover
bolt holes must remain unaltered and in their original location.
Heat riser passage may be blocked from intake manifold side of
cylinder head. Blocking passage down in valve pocket prohibited.
The following are permitted: polylocks, jam nuts, screw-in largerdiameter
rocker studs or pinned studs, bronze-wall valve guides,
cylinder head studs. Valve spring umbrellas optional. Cylinder
head may have all of the seats replaced. Any valve job
permitted,O-ringing prohibited. Exhaust plates prohibited."

I took the +/-1° to mean the valve angle relative to the deck. Sort of limiting how much you can angle mill the head.

Or race at Indy. Probably will never do either one. I've heard several stockers got torn down at Indy, not just record holders. Some are from a random draw. I guess someone could protest another competitor, but I haven't heard that happening very often. I just want to run fast enough to qualify at the divisionals and the national events near Dallas. Probably need to run at least -.50 under or a bit more.

Seems very clear that the valve job is NOT a tech item any longer

My buddy Mike got a random teardown at a divisional. Sometimes they pick 2 and take a look.

Exactly...... Or trying to put a little "cant" in them by installing the guides not parallel to their original c/l.

The valve job however, is wide open now. Play with as many, or different, angles as your heart desires.

In division one, where there are often 100+ stockers at an event, a .50 under car doesn't get much scrutiny. You'd be in the bottom 1/3 to 1/4 of the field most of the time.

We don't get that many in Division 4. I notice that Fletcher qualifies in the bottom half of the field. Not sure if that is some sort of strategy in the ladder. As long as I qualify, running below the index only counts if I'm running someone in the same class, heads-up then. Otherwise it's pretty much a dial-in bracket race from what I can see.

For the most part, I just want to play and hang out with my other stock and SS friends I've made over the years. It's not like there is any money to be made in it. I toured the Rousch Racing facility in 1998 and the old Trans-Am car was there. I asked the guy about it and he said they got tired of racing for "ashtrays", aka, trophies.

There are definitely qualifying "strategies" being played out in Stock.
Qualifying lower means you would be eligable for the bye in later rounds.

As long as you're fast enough to not worry about getting paired up in a heads up run with someone who's qualified higher than you are, qualifying higher isnt really much of an advantage.
Unless you're hoping to be able to get the bye earlier rather than later.

As an example of division one..... Maple Grove spring race, 113 cars.
.525 under was number 92. My buddy was number 40 with .786 under, and there were 18 cars running .90 under or better.

I looked back at the national event in Ennis. More cars than I thought.

1. Brian Massingill FS/C 10.30 9.132 -1.168
2. Bill Skillman FS/A 9.70 8.558 -1.142
3. Charlie Downing FS/G 11.35 10.250 -1.100
4. Stephen Bell FS/A 9.70 8.617 -1.083
5. Jeff Lopez FS/C 10.30 9.226 -1.074
6. Nick Reiter D/SA 11.55 10.491 -1.059
7. Brandon Bakies G/SA 12.00 10.948 -1.052
8. Thomas Marlow G/SA 12.00 10.959 -1.041
9. Sammy Pizzolato B/SA 11.25 10.211 -1.039
10. Butch Marlow FS/G 11.35 10.315 -1.035
...
46. Patrick Courts L/SA 12.70 11.906 -0.794
...
61. Brenda Grubbs AA/SA 10.70 10.165 -0.535
62. Jeff Teuton E/SA 11.70 11.206 -0.494
63. John Brimer A/SA 11.00 10.526 -0.474
64. Leon Philpot L/SA 12.70 12.228 -0.472
65. Parker Devore I/SA 12.30 11.922 -0.378
66. Bill Bogues H/SA 12.15 11.800 -0.350
67. James Tolston Jr. E/S 11.65 11.317 -0.333
68. Lowell Gerber H/SA 12.15 11.916 -0.234
69. Bill Bailey G/SA 12.00 11.797 -0.203
70. Keith Bakies C/SA 11.40 11.203 -0.197
71. Sharon Bogues J/SA 12.45 12.598 0.148
72. Gerald Nivans W/SA 16.65 27.418 10.768
--------- Not Qualified ---------
73. Dale Hulquist D/SA 11.55 DQ

It looks like two other cars in L/SA. Class winner might take -.80 or so. #1-5 Qualifiers are all the new cars. I heard that the #1 qualifier is a bit of a douche (JK, LOL!).

Wow, #6 Nick Reiter is from div one. That's quite a haul to go to that race.
That's a real nice running 440-6 '71 Charger he's got.

They had a nice write up in the National Drugstore about Nick's Charger. He bought it brand new. It was in the issue they handed out at the races. I mailed it to a friend of mine that has several Chargers. He doesn't live near a speed shop or track that would have a copy. I think Nick's gotten the Charger sorted out. The stocker guys flog their cars for decades.

What's the valve lift for the combo you're planning?
Solid lifters I assume.

I would do all the seat R&D on some scrap 318 head to figure out what works.
While the 920's are a little better than the later stuff, the port layout is very similar, so whatever you find works on the later head should also work on the 920 head.

NHRA, depending on the division and the current NHRA leadership, uses a lot of politics in their decision making on who gets torn down a lot and who doesn't in most sportsman classes I've seen a illegal stock class car get protested at a national event and the then head of NHRA tech allowed the racer to stay in quoting the rules on protest and he offered a sorry excuse that his tech. people should have caught the problem in tech. so the racer and his father could fix it to make it legal (I'm sure it was legal when it went through tech. )
I found out later from a NHRA office worker that the father regularly took a lot of the NHRA brass out to dinner and a night on the town In Hollywood
I remember a very successful NHRA SS racer back in the early 1970s saying "It ain't cheating until you get caught"

Some Specs from NHRA I put together.

1966 Dodge Dart K/SA-L/SA

Dodge Dart 270, 2 Door Sedan, 111” wheelbase
13.47 pounds/HP
Minimum Weight = 13.47 #/HP*210 HP + 170 # =2999#

Engine Specifications from NHRA
235HP 273 CP 10.50:1 CR 1-4BBL Cart AFB-4119S/SM, 4120S/AUTO 2536770 2536563 Carb sizes – 1437x1563/1063x1250
NOTES: B,6,14
6 - Alt carbs - 4121S/SM 4122S/AUTO
14 – Alt intake manifold 2535583, 2536536, 2533771, 2531915, 2836139
B = 2465315,2658920,2843675,3671585,3769973,4323302 Head Casting Nos.
235HP 273 Dodge Plymouth Deck Height .011 Dome .140”, 16.1 cc Valve Sizes 1780/1500 Valve Lift .420”/.430” Head Gasket Thick..020” Valve Spring Outer Only, Mechanical Solid Lifter, Rocker Ratio 1.5:1 Chamber Volume 57.3cc
Cylinder Head Volumes
Head # Intake CC's Max Exhaust CC's Max Manufacturer
302 162 70 Mopar
315 130 59 Mopar

Pistons NHRA Legal
273 65-67 235HP Min. Compression Ht. 1.745”, Pin Diameter 0.984”, Ring Thickness 5/64, 5/64, 3/16, Top Ring to Quench Dist. 0.280”, Min. Piston Wt. 547G, Min. Rod Wt. 655G, Min. Pin Wt. 90G, Min. Ring Wt. 43g, Min. Rotating Assy Wt. 1335g
ROSS 57989
CP PISTONS M14-CP

I have a pair of 675 318 heads I can experiment with. My friend with the Chargers gave me a pair of them. I didn't see any port volumes listed for the 675 and 920 heads. I would think they should be close to the early 315 heads.

Cab, I plan on running a legal car even if it's slower. Cheating to run fast doesn't prove anything. Having to pull the whole engine at Indy and have no engine stand doesn't thrill me at all. There was a post on Classracer about that happening. The guy had to pull the pan off with the engine on a pallet or something. You'd think they could afford some cheap engine stands.

Get on Classracer.com register and use the classification guide that Dwight Southerland has there.
Use the 302 heads and the LD4B manifold they flow much better. Talk to other people running your combination.It will save you a lot of money. The Bushmakers have a very competitive 273 also Paul Wong. Unless you are building a killer car buying all those valves was a waste of money. Sorry to be so blunt. If on the other hand you just want to play on the flow bench you may learn something for the future.
Stock eliminator is a lot of fun and hard work. I have been doing it on and off since 1972 and set many records. Enjoy.

I've been on Classracer for 15 years or so. I've been on Dwight's deal before but didn't think there was anything new there. Went back today and he's done a good job compiling all the info in one or two places. The Dart isn't in his classification page. He only has the Coronet and Charger from Page 1. The Dart info is on Page 3. I have already compiled all the info from the various NHRA pages (classification, engine blueprint, piston, rod, cylinder head volumes, etc.) into a Word document. Mine doesn't update automatically unlike Dwights.

I already bought two LD4Bs, one from Terry Dye and one from Tony's parts from an ad on Moparts. Dwight had some port volumes on the other heads that are legal (675, etc), just not sure they are accurate. They had them down as the same volumes as the X head, 915/587 head volumes. Not sure I believe that. I hadn't planned to flow those 675 heads, but I might as well drag them along to my engine/machinist guy in Tampa. If I find some 302s, I'll buy a set to check them out.

As far as all the valves, in any testing of variables, only one data point is best. This applies to any variable in tuning an engine or car. If you test 1000 variables, only one combination is best. In essence, you wasted all that time and money on the other 999 variables. If you can get info from other racers, maybe they give you what they found to be the best. You have no idea what they tested previously. It's probably a very good starting point though. I figure the 1.78" intakes and the slightly larger 1.81" BBM exhaust valves I bought can be used for flow testing on the BBM exhausts. I may end up with a collection of odd ball valves for flow testing. The AMC 1.78" intake valve looks promising as it's more of a nail head valve. I'm sure we will have Manley make a custom valve for us. My machinist found some interesting results on the MP aluminum Magnum heads he did for another friend. They tested a bunch of valves on it and finally found one the heads liked.

I've talked to Paul a bit on Classracer. I didn't get much info out of him when I was thinking about a 318 2bbl combo for my 1969 Barracuda. This Dart already had a rollcage, so I didn't want to put a rollbar in an original 340 car. The 318 fit in a lower class that didn't need the rollbar. Some of my SS racer friends thought that was a bad idea with 160MPH CJs and COPOs and Drag Packs running in the other lane. I haven't connected to Bushmaker. I thought he was running a 1973/4 Cuda with the 340/360TQ combo. Didn't he have the Brown Sugar Cuda?

The NHRA port volumes are really more used to determine the limit for how big they can be after porting in SS.
If you start checking the runner volume of unmodified 318 heads you find most are well under the 162cc limit.
Since you won't be porting them, they will just be whatever they are.

Bushmaker runs a Volare/roadrunner but he built his daughter Angela's 273 4bbl Valiant. They run pretty strong.
6273 K/SA Angela Bushmaker, Buckley WA, '65 Valiant 11.747 12.65 -0.903
If you really want to have fun put a stick in your car. Contrary to what all the sheep say it is cheaper and easier than a slush box.

NHRA shows the 315 head to be 130cc on the intake. For some reason NHRA shows the 302 and 308 heads to be in the 160cc range. The port volume will increase somewhat depending on the "valve job". We can always cut the intake and exhaust flanges back a little, but since NHRA doesn't post any volumes, I doubt that we will. It might depend on how much we deck the block and heads. Not really close to that point now. I bought three blocks last year, one was a short block. I have another 273 crank from my old Darts engine and another forged 318. I have a 5.2L Magnum crank. It's cast, but I've heard some stocker guys run the cast cranks since they tend to be lighter than the forged steel cranks.

My machinist didn't like the Ross pistons. He said they were too hard, so we will probably buy the CP pistons. Funny the old TRW pistons aren't legal anymore. Those are nearly impossible to find anyway. I think Badger used to have a legal piston too many years back.

6 6273 K/SA Angela Bushmaker, Auburn WA, '65 Valiant 11.782 12.65 -0.868

That was from two years ago at the Seattle event. I'm glad they are on the west coast, and she's in K/SA. I thought Washington state would be in Division 7 instead of 6. Sounds like Bill has that combo well sorted. I'll see about trying to contact him. I think Paul always ran the 2bbl engine in B-body cars, mostly the R-U/SA contingent in wagons.

Aren't those LD4Bs aluminum? Didn't know you could use those.

Surprised me too. I thought the 340 AVS intake was great, but then looked up the other part number. I've got several 340 intakes, but gave my old LD4B I had to a friend for his 318 about 30 some years ago. I got rid of the 273 and 318 parts when I started collecting 340 pieces in the 1980s. Now I'm going back. Since NHRA defactored the 273-235 down to 210 HP, and we get the LD4B, it should run pretty decent. I figure it will take about 350 HP to get the Dart down to 12 flat (-.70 under). Seems like a lot to squeeze out of a 273. Maybe 300 HP to run the index, so need more than 300 HP to qualify.

302 heads are way smaller than 308 heads. You won't need a burrett to figure that out..... Just put them next to each other.

Also, you don't have to run under the index to qualify.
You just can't dial any slower than the index.

When my friend went to his first event running in stock the car was just off the index.
Ran 12.10 on a 12.00.
Lost first round with the 12.00 dial when it wouldn't run the number.

After a bunch of testing and getting the car sorted out it ended up going 10.97 years later.
First GTO stocker in the 10's.

what do you all think about the two barrel setup for a 67 cuda?

You'd have to look at what it competes against in the same class.
If there are any combos running the same class with 4bbl carbs I'd probably go another route.

There are very few cars running in R/SA and staying away from Paul wong who runs in Q/SA usually should not be that big of deal.

Mike was helping a guy with a 318 2bbl combo. They finally got it to run about .3 under and then the NHRA hit all the indexes .3 and killed him. The 2bbl carb is a tough one. It is small.

There is a reason they run the 1965 273 2bbl it has a larger carb.

Bushmaker is the person that got the LD4B manifold approved by NHRA.

this going to be the 273 with the two barrel. i wish the compression was the same for both so i could use the same short block. The pistons for the 4 barrel are now only available from ross and cp at $175 per piston. And findinhg an original set, i think would at but impossible.

Can it be used on the 340?

in stock eliminator racing?

Yes, 70 Duster 340 AVS iron intake that weights a ton

The only intakes I see NHRA legal for Stock are the 1968-9 casting and the 1970 casting. It looks like the 1970 340 AVS only gets the 1970 intake, but the 1968/9 cars can run the 1970 intake as well.

275 340 DP 10.50 1-4 Cart AVS-4424S/SM 4425S/AUTO 2531915,3462848 1.5 H 63.3 C,2 Carb sizes – 1437x1686/1186xAV

Once NHRA opens the door for one, don't we all get in? Of course my iron intake flows well now.

I am not sure how Bill got that manifold approved for the 273. It was probably some obscure memo or something in the parts book. You would not want the LD4B on a 340 You would want the LD340 which was a copy of the cast iron 340 manifold. I remember when most of the 340 SS cars used that manifold.

SS cars can run any manifold they want, and the ld340 and others are not like the out of the box manifolds at all.

It's very possible he got the intake approved because originals are too hard to find. It may have a HP hit attached to it too.

Glad you said that, I had the two confused. I was just thinking of the weight savings on the front end.

i think this manifold was used on the "D: dart in 1964 and somehow it got approved for all of the 273 combos.

The D-Dart was 1966, two door hardtop. NHRA lists the convertible with the D-Dart engine too, but I've never seen any of those. My car is a two door sedan, so I can't run the D-Dart combo. It's a SS only car since they only made around 50 of them. It would be nice to get the Holley carb and bigger cam, but I think the D-Dart is still factored at the original 275 HP, 285 HP with the replacement head.

I'd use the 920 heads. That is what was on the D/Dart. They are a closed chamber and have a swirl port design. As far as the D4B goes, there were two of them. One has the Chrysler part number (CHRY2836139) cast into it. That might be the one you have to use.

I should swap cam, intake and carb and run my D/Dart in a stock class. Would that be legal even though it has an LO23 vin?

I'm pretty sure they don't check the VIN, otherwise there would only be two or so cars in the Hemi shootouts if they needed to be an original LO23 or BO29. I think you would have pretty much the same combo I am running, just that you have a hardtop and mine is a sedan. I don't think there was a large difference in shipping weights. I guess I was wrong, my 270 sedan is at 13.47, the 270 hardtop is 13.60, and the Dart GT hardtop is at 14.02. You can run two classes lower than my car. Natural M/S car.

I'm getting different opinions on the 920 and 302 heads. I guess I'll have to get some 302s for flow testing. I think the chambers are similar. I've been told the 302s have a bigger port. I have two of the LD4Bs with the Chrysler part number on them.

I have both heads here, a bone stock 302 and 920 and the 920 is by far the bigger port, smaller chamber even though both are closed chamber. The chambers are different, 302 has a heart shape and comes to a very sharp point in the middle of the chamber, the 920 has just one side filled in with no point, just straight accross, more like a magnum.

The 302 head was made for a roller cam engine that had a really bad pushrod angle, the bad pushrod angle needed a bigger PR hole, in order to accomadate the bigger hole they cast a whole bunch of extra metal right in the port PR pinch making it the smallest SB mopar port ever.

I haven't messed with any of those 318 heads in eons(like around 1993) but I do recall thinking the 920's were the biggest of the true 318 heads.

One thing about the 302 head is the valves are pretty well shrouded by the chamber walls. Also the ports are pretty small, but I don't have older heads to compare. But if you can't move metal in the combustion chamber the shrouding may be a factor.

R.

Ive been looking at maybe a set of these castings and the counter offer I got was very temping for new castings but these as well have a huge pushrod hole in the head and so id bet the port is very small.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-Dodge-Chrysler-Mopar-M880-318-NH-Cylinder-Head-4343723-4041001-/322134219161?hash=item4b00b21999:m:mXmYq0AIsu5czdvGaTt0epA&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-Dodge-Chrysler-Mopar-M880-318-NH-Cylinder-Head

Nothing too special there, other than it's new.
Open chamber with the big pushrod holes. Must be the last version before the 302 head.

If you need some open chamber 318 heads for a rebuild or freshen up, it's a cheap enough price.

In ootb form the flow is so low on the 318 heads that the pushrod bulge really isn't an issue.

Thanks for the info on the heads. I talked to my machinist/engine builder today. He said the cylinder walls are only .160"-.180" thick on a standard block and a quick check. I'm leaning towards using Hardblok, but sleeving a block is a more expensive option. I found some Melling 1/8" sleeves that would bring the 318 bore (3.91") down to the 3.66" range. My machinist suggested getting Darton or someone to make some extra thick sleeves and put them in a 340 block. Sounds like a very expensive way to go and this is intended to be a budget build.

I think you'll find that most 318 blocks have pretty thin walls.
Just fill it and run it.

If you are going to run a stock class, don't you have to run a 273 block from the model year your car was built? The PN on my original, as delivered, D/Dart 273 block is 2806030-3. According to an old Galen book (6th printing), it's listed as a 318 from 1967-1974 block. The Galen info is probably wrong.

If in fact it is a 318 block with a 273 bore, it would have thicker walls. Both of the D/Darts that I have/had owned had the same block number.

The NHRA approved aftermarket block is a a Ritter Racing Products XR-1 or XR-2.

DDartDude (D^3): I don't think it has to be the same year block. Some of the MW racers used to use the industrial 426 block, and that wasn't even a production car block. I don't want to spend the money on a Ritter or even the R3 340 replacement block. I have a small stack of 340 blocks in inventory already. That casting number seems to show up for the 273 and 318 blocks. I guess I'd better keep an eye out for one of those.
http://www.rosevillemoparts.com/reference_castingnumbers1.php

The question of what intake came up on Classracer about the D-Dart intake. Did they use the flat 273-4 intake that was used on the 235 HP version, or the LD4B? I looked in the old performance book and it just says it had the Holley carb, different cam and headers.

The D/Dart came with the 2536771 intake. They used an in-house made 1/2" aluminum spacer/adapter for the 4160 Holley carb, list #3778. It was a 7?0 cfm carb with 1 11/16" throttle bores. Not sure of the exact cfm. The aluminum adapter had the same throttle bores as the carb, it had to, but I'm not sure of the intake. I didn't measure the intake on the car that I sold which would have been correct. On Ted's old race car, the 771 intake measures 1 9/16". The late Paul Ceasrine said it was a high flow intake and thought it was also bored to 1 11/16".

I think the LD4B with the Chrysler part number came out some time in the 70's.

Thought Galen's book was wrong with just the 318 only listing of the block.

Thanks for the info. I didn't know about the spacer, but that makes sense. Did the bores taper down to match the holes in the intake, or where they straight through and just there to clear the carb butterflies. I had one of the 273 AFBs and intake about 25 years ago, but can't remember much about it. I put the chrome air cleaner top on my 225 Barracuda coupe and somebody bought the car before I swapped the a/c tops back.

The spacer was not tapered. Here is the spacer on top of the 771 intake and a few shot of just the spacer.

OK ?????? Now I have to figure out how to post pictures on a reply.

Here's our D/Dart site. Some good info on it.
http://www.seriousviewers.com/d-dart/ddart.htm

Use the "file manager" function

DDartDude, thanks for all the info. That was interesting to see the list of owners and some of the cars and parts. Lots of good info on there, not just for the D-Darts.

Looks like I opened up a can of worms by sending you over to Class Racer. All that whining about the LD4B. I think anything we can do to get more Mopars involved the better. Way too many chebbys out there now.

I posted the photos of the D/Dart carb spacer on the 771 intake that is on my car. It is not tapered and looks like it was rough machined.

A little rant.... I hate reading 273 builds. Even though there is a reason a person is building a 273 motor for their car, everyone says to throw the little 273 away and put a stroked 360 in the car. And then they describe the 360 build that you "should" do. Arg.

Anyways...my D/Dart ran a best of 12.95 at 105 back in 66 while competing in D/S. Nationally, it wasn't competitive. The engine was blueprinted, as all engines were back then. It had the, as delivered in the trunk, Doug's headers on it. I believe they were 1 3/4" with 2 1/2" collectors back then. They used 7" M&H A140 slicks mounted on 4 1/2" rims -- wow --- and ran 5.33 gears. I'm not sure what they launched at but they shifted and ran through the traps at 6800-7000 RPM's. And don't forget the rosin burnouts.....for traction.

Yeah, Billy Nees got going on wanting to kill the LD4B. I can see wanting to keep Stock pure, but the cat is out of the bag or whatever the cliche is on that? Hopefully your post put the brakes on in the lights. I was going to kill the whole thread but some didn't want that and I couldn't find a way to delete it.

D^3, I can understand the big engine over the 273 build scenario. It doesn't cost much more to build the bigger engine and you don't have to wind the snot out of them. Stocker and SS racing under rules is a unique deal. I was hoping it could be a more of a "dime rocket" as they call it, but it's not looking like I can do that.

I didn't expect to get some much interest on Moparts or Classracer with the 273 deal. That little engine has some fans and a couple of new guys wanting to build a similar combo to mine. Thanks to all for your info and inspiration on this combo.

Nice photos of the spacer on the intake. Did they use a flathead screws to hold the spacer down? The throttle bores on the spacer look like they were cast rough, but cleaned up a little on one side. Kind of strange. So much for the idea that the manifold holes were opened up to match the carb bores. I guess the spacer provided clearance for the larger throttle blades and also go from the narrow AFB pattern to the wider Holley pattern. Thanks for posting these photos D^3.

Not sure why they got their panties in a wad, it still a bracket race, unless this Bill guy is in your class and runs heads up

The manifold is no different than piles of other parts that have been made legal through the years....... Like aftermarket rods, roller rockers, and edelbrock heads.

http://www.nhra.net/stats/pointsdtl.asp?...=N/A&pt=221

7 1188 V/SA Billy Nees, Wharton NJ, 70 Nova 14.898 15.80 -0.902

It looks like he also has a 1972 Nova with a 307 that runs in T/SA. I found him in 2014 in B/SA with a 1998 Firebird. It looks like he mostly runs the six cylinder Nova.

i have known Billy Nees for years he is generally a good guy and very knowledgeable on Stocker combos. About 25 years ago when he still had a shop and lived in N. J. I was living in a condo and could not do an engine swap on my Dart there, Billy let me do it at his shop and even helped and would`t take any money. As well as having several cars of his own he drives for other people also, the Firebird he drove belongs to Larry Pappas and it used to belong to the late Lloyd Mckay. Good luck with your Stocker combo, those old Darts and Valiants are cool. so is Stock Eliminator. Isn`t there a guy around Kansas that runs a Valiant S/S 273 stick combo that flies? Long time Mopar guy Billy Belafato from Westchester Cty. N.Y. built a 66? Valiant 273 stocker a few years ago that ran well ( low 12s) but i haven`t seen it in awhile.

I think Billy Nees just wants Stock to be the way it used to be. I kind of agree with that, but people have spent money on aftermarket parts now that were declared legal. I'm talking with Billy Bellafatto about his 273 parts. He's got a Diplomat or something else now and on to a new combo. Matt Steen at Victory Engines run the Valiant in SS.

http://www.victoryengines.net/

Billy B has had a lot of different Mopars and combos, how ironic you are talking to him about his parts, thats the guy Matt Steen I could`t remember his name.

i wish we could go back to the days without a set of heads costing 5k, transmissions and converters costing another 5k.

This cost factor will be the final nail in most people not going into this class.

I am trying to build a car that will run .3 under the index without all of these expensive add-ons.

I think you can easily get 1/2 second under the index, that other half is the high dollar side and as you get closer to the second or more under those hundredths are very costly. No one has beat the odd ball combos to death yet and NHRA is soft on those indexs, so go for it. One example, 69 340 and 383 are hp factored the same, which one is softer?

If you stay out of the glamour classes and don't obsess with setting national records you can still race Stock pretty cheap.

Mike Jeffrey set the V/SA record twice with a car you could duplicate for $15K or less. He has had the same converter in the car for years, and only changed gears when going up to Denver. The car was rock solid and never broke anything. It's not the record holder now, but will still go at least .75 under most anywhere. With all the tricks it will still go 1.1 under in decent air. You can buy the car today turn key for $10K.

Going .3-.5 under with your combo shouldn't break the bank either.

The key for running .5-ish under for cheap money is finding combos that are kind of soft and where both the cars and the engines/parts are cheap and plentiful.
There aren't a ton of those if you're talking vintage mopars.
Find a decent southern rust free 64-70 4 door or wagon b body, put a 4bbl 383 in it........should be able to get it .5 under without any exotica.

360 4bbl Mirada's, volare's, and dart sports are another good option.


Brand x stuff........ 4 door or wagon 1978-1980 vintage malibu's with 4bbl 305's.

http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=64134

http://www.bobjohnsonphotography.com/Pho...ML/g141_038.htm

the car was originally a 71 Demon...

A good friend of mine runs a Buick that barely covers the index, but he knows that car backwards and forwards and many times he knocks off the top of the ladder like dominoes. Its not how fast you go but if you can run your dial in.

BUT.. The problem with that car, the 340 has been tweaked for 40 years. Better be prepared to cough up the bucks to run much under the index or out run everybody in E or F. Real skinny and run D, fat to run H. How many V Stockers are out there? Need not run and hide from the bad boys there.

Mike was the bad boy for a long time, but Danny Tool got a turbo Mustang that is pretty fast, but has bern getting HP hits so Mike's car can probably get within a tenth of him now. There is also a V-6 El Camino in Div. 5 that is bad fast right now, but he has been getting hit too.

I think in all the years Mike has run the car he has had maybe 1 or 2 heads-up runs.

I would buy Mike's car but I just don't have time to go 2-3 days to a divisional and 3-4 for a national event.

The 340 combos either need a dump truck full of money or a friend to point you in the right direction. There are a lot of them out there that are rockets.

since this related the the 273 build, i thought i would pose this question here.

I pulled this crank what seems to be a 68 273 since it came with a hydraulic cam and non-adjustable rockers.

This is the crank that was in the block, the parting line is throwing me off, i can't seem to tell if it is a cast or forged crank, but this seems strange too.




does this part looked forged to you?





Thanks

^ Forged crank.

thanks

The torque converter register is smaller on the 1967 and earlier cranks, 1.556" vs. 1.815" for the 1968 and up cranks. I ran into this 30 years ago when I replaced the 273 with a 340 in my 1967 Dart convertible. I used the original trans and didn't have a good way to center the converter in the crank.

I talked to Vance Cummins on the valve shape and bowl cuts/VJ. I modeled up the intake valve based on his recommendation, and made a guess on the exhaust as he just said tulip shaped. I'm having it 3D printed so I can take them along to my machinist when I head down in a week or so.

find out what he will charge for two sets. And it looks like i have the 68 crank. so I will be taking it down to Greg Luneak later for the offset grind. Greg and I also spoke about the ring package

Back to the Ebay 646 heads from a couple of pages ago. They are 360 heads, an alternate casting to the 308.
So, not applicable to the 273 or 318.

Vendor typical problem of "It's Mopar smallblock all parts interchange".

That forged crank is really ugly (shudder).

Nice to see that the powers that be aren't making 273s run the extra heavy pin that was stock in the 273. Also rod minimum weight is some 60 grams lighter than stock.

R.

i do not care if is ugly, i care if it going to work.

Yep, 90g minimum. I don't know if anyone makes pins that light unless they were titanium. I think Chrysler made the extra heavy pins for the 273 to have the same weight as the 318 piston and pin.

Pistons NHRA Legal
273 65-67 235HP Min. Compression Ht. 1.745”, Pin Diameter 0.984”, Ring Thickness 5/64, 5/64, 3/16, Top Ring to Quench Dist. 0.280”, Min. Piston Wt. 547G, Min. Rod Wt. 655G, Min. Pin Wt. 90G, Min. Ring Wt. 43g, Min. Rotating Assy Wt. 1335g
ROSS 57989
CP PISTONS M14-CP