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Re: 1.6 bad geometry [Re: B3RE] #2123930
08/03/16 11:30 AM
08/03/16 11:30 AM
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Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1 Offline
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Originally Posted By B3RE
Originally Posted By Challenger 1
Originally Posted By B3RE
I love this idea that Mopars are so outdated, that you should only run 1.5 rockers. If that were the case, I could make the argument that you should only run a flat tappet cam, because big blocks never came from the factory with a roller cam. A roller cam has the ability to increase area under the curve with the same seat timing, which is exactly what a higher ratio rocker does. For that matter, the dinosaur Mopar engines never had roller rockers from the factory, so you shouldn't be running those either. Forget about aluminum heads and manifolds. Headers, no way!

I almost never use a 1.5 ratio rocker on my Mopar builds, and I don't seem to be hurting for power, reliability, or stabilty. I put the shafts in the right place, and it makes the rocker to valve geometry correct. There is no roller rocker that can be bolted to the cast in stands, and have proper geometry, no matter how much they are marketed as such. Do a Google search for Mopar rocker geometry. There are some good tech articles available, as well as some not so good. Use logic and common sense to separate the two.

As far as pushrods are concerned, you can get away with less pushrod when the rest of the valvetrain is stable. A smooth stable valvetrain puts less of a pounding on its individual parts.

In response to Polyspherics comment about Miller, if you study his (Millers) explanation of geometry, he tells you that even though the pushrod side may not be correct on other rocker brands, and is difficult to change, the valve side is far more important. So, if you don't correct the valve side, you lose twice. Also, I'll share a little secret. Miller's patent expired over 20 years ago.

Run the 1.6s with the shafts in the right place, and you won't have excessive guide wear or instability issues.


Since it is not a easy deal or economical for the OP to move his rocker shafts on his budget heads, don't you think he should run 1.5 if he wants to keep the cost down and make it reliable as possible without spending big bucks to run 1.6?

Believe it or not, with the reduced lift from the 1.5s, his effective geometry would be worse. Depending on the approach, moving the shafts is not that expensive, and might save some grinding. Also, he already has the rockers, so replacing them would be an additional cost.


If the cam was ground for 1.5 rockers then he would not have "reduced" lift and not have to grind heads for push rod clearance and be just as fast as a 1.6 rocker motor. Sure I know he already has the cam and rockers, I can read his posts. He can also sell the 1.6 and buy 1.5 if he wants to protect his valve guides and not have to move his rocker shafts.

Re: 1.6 bad geometry [Re: Challenger 1] #2124005
08/03/16 01:20 PM
08/03/16 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted By Challenger 1


If the cam was ground for 1.5 rockers then he would not have "reduced" lift and not have to grind heads for push rod clearance and be just as fast as a 1.6 rocker motor. Sure I know he already has the cam and rockers, I can read his posts. He can also sell the 1.6 and buy 1.5 if he wants to protect his valve guides and not have to move his rocker shafts.


Um, take a look at a master lobe catalog. Most lobes are not for a specific rocker ratio unless required for a special application, i.e. Nascar, Class rules etc. You can't get the same lift and seat timing/duration as a 1.6 ratio rocker, with a 1.5, unless you are comparing a garbage lobe to a very good lobe.

Also, explain to me how a rocker, regardless of ratio, having the same net lift at the valve, will have less side loading on the guide. The fulcrum point is at the same place, and it will have the same amount of sweep and side loading across the valve tip for a given lift. I'm open to changing my mind, but it has to make sense.

I don't see other brands, ex. SB Chevy, that use 1.5 rockers from the factory, having a problem with running higher ratios, and don't tell me they have better geometry. Far from it. If there wasn't a benefit to higher ratios, they wouldn't be able to sell any. Like I suggested to the OP, research rocker geometry, and apply logic and common sense. It will be eye opening.


Mike Beachel

I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
Re: 1.6 bad geometry [Re: B3RE] #2124037
08/03/16 02:09 PM
08/03/16 02:09 PM
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Logic and common sense can be very difficult to find on this board.
Increasing rocker ratio keeps the valve open farther, longer. The highest performance pushrod engines I can think of are NASCAR engines. They are looking for a handful of horsepower over the next guy, and increasing rocker ratio was found to be beneficial. I believe that NASCAR put a maximum limit on rocker ratio to keep it from getting absurd.

My point: increasing rocker ratio can be your friend. Otherwise, why did Pontiac put 1.5 rockers on most engines and 1.65 on the top hp Ram Air IV engine?

But one doesn't have to believe this.

TO the OP: What B3RE didn't say was he can help get the rocker shafts into the right position for your setup, for a fee.

R.

Re: 1.6 bad geometry [Re: dogdays] #2124088
08/03/16 03:10 PM
08/03/16 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted By dogdays
Logic and common sense can be very difficult to find on this board.
Increasing rocker ratio keeps the valve open farther, longer. The highest performance pushrod engines I can think of are NASCAR engines. They are looking for a handful of horsepower over the next guy, and increasing rocker ratio was found to be beneficial. I believe that NASCAR put a maximum limit on rocker ratio to keep it from getting absurd.

My point: increasing rocker ratio can be your friend. Otherwise, why did Pontiac put 1.5 rockers on most engines and 1.65 on the top hp Ram Air IV engine?

But one doesn't have to believe this.

TO the OP: What B3RE didn't say was he can help get the rocker shafts into the right position for your setup, for a fee.

R.

R, you are correct. That was the additional area under the curve I was talking about. Ratio also helps engines that have a small cam bearing journal, because the journal diameter limits the amount of lobe that can be used. 60MM cam journals anyone?

No, I didn't mention what services I offer. I could plaster ads everywhere telling people to buy my products, because they need it, but I first want them to know WHY they need it. That approach may cost me some business, but I feel better having informed customers.


Mike Beachel

I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
Re: 1.6 bad geometry [Re: Thenwhat85] #2124097
08/03/16 03:29 PM
08/03/16 03:29 PM
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Thenwhat85 Offline OP
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I will read about the rocker geometry tonight. Thanks for a ll the insite I knew it was a good idea to post. But if my valve tip sweep is centered then wouldn't I have the ideal geometry no matter what the push rods are doing. As far as valve/guide wear?
Also my files are to large so until I get that figured out I don't have pictures for you guys but I will post them up

Re: 1.6 bad geometry [Re: Thenwhat85] #2124119
08/03/16 04:02 PM
08/03/16 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted By Thenwhat85
I will read about the rocker geometry tonight. Thanks for a ll the insite I knew it was a good idea to post. But if my valve tip sweep is centered then wouldn't I have the ideal geometry no matter what the push rods are doing. As far as valve/guide wear?
Also my files are to large so until I get that figured out I don't have pictures for you guys but I will post them up


This is why you really need to read the tech articles. A centered sweep is old and incorrect information, and is not of primary importance. After reading, you may still have questions, because the info will challenge what you thought you knew about rocker geometry. I'd be happy to answer or explain any questions you might have.


Mike Beachel

I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
Re: 1.6 bad geometry [Re: Thenwhat85] #2124196
08/03/16 06:27 PM
08/03/16 06:27 PM
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383man Offline
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I am using Hughes 1.6 rockers on my mild 440/493. I got them in a trade for a good deal and they were almost new as I traded my brother for them so I used them. I run basic EZ heads I got from Dwayne Porter and he clearenced the pushrod holes as they had more then enough room with my Manton pushrods. I only run a flat tappet cam of .585 and .592 lift which comes out right around .630 lift with the 1.6 rockers. I can tell you they run about dead center on the valve head and I have been running them since june 2011 and they have worked flawless. They usually stay in adjustment as I adjust my valves once a year and they are usually still on the money. Its a street car so I normally drive it alot and race it once or twice year usually. Honestly these have worked very good for me as I have had no problems at all and I just use the stock rocker shaft oiling setup. I was not really planning on 1.6 rockers but as I said I got a great deal on them and they work fine for my street car. Ron



Last edited by 383man; 08/03/16 06:28 PM.
Re: 1.6 bad geometry [Re: Thenwhat85] #2124211
08/03/16 06:37 PM
08/03/16 06:37 PM
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Re: 1.6 bad geometry [Re: Thenwhat85] #2124235
08/03/16 07:18 PM
08/03/16 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted By Thenwhat85
I will read about the rocker geometry tonight. Thanks for a ll the insite I knew it was a good idea to post. But if my valve tip sweep is centered then wouldn't I have the ideal geometry no matter what the push rods are doing. As far as valve/guide wear?


I raced for 2 decades and didn't know anything about rocker geometry so I just made sure the rocker stayed on the valve tip nicely and went racing, might not have been the right way but it worked and ran in the 9's for many years. I switched from 1.5 harland sharps to 1.6 harland sharps on my 451 low deck with the 590 purpleshaft and Eddy heads and the car picked up a little with the added lift and never had a problem.

I'd like to try B3RE's geometry setup someday though.


1970 Challenger, all aluminum 528 Hemi, HDK suspension, Tremec 5 speed manual
Re: 1.6 bad geometry [Re: Thenwhat85] #2124364
08/03/16 10:15 PM
08/03/16 10:15 PM
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If you have to do a ton of grinding to get a 1.6 to fit you would have had to do a ton of grinding (minus a tiny bit) to get the 1.5 to fit with the same pushrod. If you ever compare two right next to each other on the same head the PR location difference if very very small.

On a SB a higher ratio actually improves the horrible pushrod angle a hair as an added bonus. I run 1.7s on my SB, I just wish they were easier to find.

Put me in the camp of useing the highest readily available ratio because they allow a lot more lift with a lot less lifter motion. Also if you run an identicle actual valve lift profile with a 1.6 ratio VS a 1.5, the 1.6 can use less spring pressure because it does not need to move the mass as much (valve, retainer, keeper motion is the same but lifter and pushrod don't have to travel as far), a real good thing on a flat tappet.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: 1.6 bad geometry [Re: Thenwhat85] #2124430
08/03/16 11:06 PM
08/03/16 11:06 PM
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Thenwhat85 Offline OP
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Just read your articles b3r. Very well explained and I actually understood it. I did how ever go by Hughes push rod measuring recommendations and had the rocker adjust all the way up in the body no threads were showing. So if I read part 4 right. This is the best angle I can get,beside your rocker shafts mod. Also would shiming the shaft help me? I'm going to reassemble everything and check everything according to your article to see where I'm at. Thanks

Re: 1.6 bad geometry [Re: Thenwhat85] #2124664
08/04/16 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted By Thenwhat85
Just read your articles b3r. Very well explained and I actually understood it. I did how ever go by Hughes push rod measuring recommendations and had the rocker adjust all the way up in the body no threads were showing. So if I read part 4 right. This is the best angle I can get,beside your rocker shafts mod. Also would shiming the shaft help me? I'm going to reassemble everything and check everything according to your article to see where I'm at. Thanks


Yes, raising and offsetting the shafts is the first priority. The pushrod side is addressed with what you have after the valve side is corrected. The adjuster is then set as high as possible, while still getting proper oiling, and pushrod length is measured.


Mike Beachel

I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
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