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Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: Kern Dog] #2071244 05/11/16 02:01 AM 05/11/16 02:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 949 Klamath Falls, Oregon Dartslantsix OP super stock
Dartslantsix OP super stock Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 949 Klamath Falls, Oregon	Quote: Toe out? I was told that FWD cars use toe out because they are pulling the car. He may have got confused. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. 67 Barracuda build

Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: Dartslantsix] #2071304 05/11/16 08:44 AM 05/11/16 08:44 AM
Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 19,355 north of coder moparx "Butt Crack Bob"
moparx "Butt Crack Bob" Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 19,355 north of coder	Originally Posted By Dartslantsix Quote: Toe out? I was told that FWD cars use toe out because they are pulling the car. He may have got confused. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. the FSM for my caravan states toe as -.20 to +.20 with 0.0 as preferred. since i never knew what that degree deal equated to, i just set it at 1/16-1/8 toe in and called it good. i never had any tire wear issues and it tracked down the road good, being able to let go of the steering wheel at 70 on a deserted stretch of interstate and it would track straight and true, not needing any corrective measures to go in a straight line.

Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: Dartslantsix] #2071369 05/11/16 11:42 AM 05/11/16 11:42 AM
Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 667 Los Osos, Ca C CKessel mopar
CKessel mopar C Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 667 Los Osos, Ca	Sounds like a "set the toe and let it go" type of shop. Carl Kessel

Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: Dartslantsix] #2071444 05/11/16 02:07 PM 05/11/16 02:07 PM
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 723 Houston Tx Uhcoog1 super stock
Uhcoog1 super stock Joined: May 2005 Posts: 723 Houston Tx	Originally Posted By Dartslantsix Sorry, didn't check this thread for a couple days. Looking at the print out from the shop, it appears that they currently have me toe-out in the front. I think this is the main problem. I have an appointment for tomorrow and I am going to have them fix the toe. If possible, I am going to have them add in negative camber and not worry as much about the caster. In the future, this car will need aftermarket UCAs and possibly spacers on the lower ball joint to hit the camber numbers. Will report back after tomorrow. Thanks for the responses. The main problem is you have positive camber. You will have very low caster with positive camber. Why did they set positive camber in the first place? Tell them to roll the front all the way out (extended), and the rear all the way in (shortened). And I know you stated you installed the offset bushings correctly - correctly per what? If you do it per the instructions in the box, that is incorrect. The offset bushings should further push the front of the UCA out, and the rear of the UCA in. If all of that is done, you should be 5 to 7* caster and -1.0 to -1.5 camber. -'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar -'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course

Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: moparx] #2071445 05/11/16 02:08 PM 05/11/16 02:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2013 Posts: 106 Central IL T Trojmn member
Trojmn member T Joined: Aug 2013 Posts: 106 Central IL	right on. for FWD i go as close to "0" as possible and error on a touch of toe in. With my fishing line and rulers +/- 1/16" and goes down the road strait is good enough. Same for the caravan and barracuda... My SRT4 was on an alignment rack for an insurance claim and toe measured .1 degree different and camber was only .05 different on the FL than the FR.

Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: Trojmn] #2071711 05/11/16 10:09 PM 05/11/16 10:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 949 Klamath Falls, Oregon Dartslantsix OP super stock
Dartslantsix OP super stock Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 949 Klamath Falls, Oregon	An update for today. Went back to the shop and they had a different guy do the alignment. Cams ran out of adjustment before he could hit the numbers, but he did get the toe fixed. He was not sure why the other guy set it toe-out. Car now goes down the road as it should. I'll have to get aftermarket UCAs and possibly use spacers on the LCA to get camber and caster numbers. Finally numbers: Camber: left +.1 right +.6 Caster: +.9, +1.2 Toe: .07" in, .07" in It seems this particular car was on the big or small end of their tolerancing back in 1967. I've done a 66 and 65 with the offset bushings and those cars were able to hit 2.5 caster and .5 negative camber. Thanks for the help! 67 Barracuda build

Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: Dartslantsix] #2071721 05/11/16 10:28 PM 05/11/16 10:28 PM
Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,302 Nebraska 72Swinger master
72Swinger master Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,302 Nebraska	Still doesnt make sense, im betting your offset bushings are offset the wrong way. I've gotten more caster than that with stock bushings. Mopar to the bone!!!

Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: 72Swinger] #2071755 05/11/16 11:26 PM 05/11/16 11:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,664 IN A ahy master
ahy master A Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,664 IN	Glad she is at least running straight. Reasonable caster also though I know you want more.

Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: 72Swinger] #2071853 05/12/16 01:43 AM 05/12/16 01:43 AM
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 723 Houston Tx Uhcoog1 super stock
Uhcoog1 super stock Joined: May 2005 Posts: 723 Houston Tx	Originally Posted By 72Swinger Still doesnt make sense, im betting your offset bushings are offset the wrong way. I've gotten more caster than that with stock bushings. x2 OP- how about some pics of the cam bolts and bushings as it sits right now? -'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar -'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course

Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: Dartslantsix] #2072164 05/12/16 06:16 PM 05/12/16 06:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,094 central texas K krautrock top fuel
krautrock top fuel K Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,094 central texas	Originally Posted By Dartslantsix An update for today. Went back to the shop and they had a different guy do the alignment. Cams ran out of adjustment before he could hit the numbers, but he did get the toe fixed. He was not sure why the other guy set it toe-out. Car now goes down the road as it should. I'll have to get aftermarket UCAs and possibly use spacers on the LCA to get camber and caster numbers. Finally numbers: Camber: left +.1 right +.6 Caster: +.9, +1.2 Toe: .07" in, .07" in It seems this particular car was on the big or small end of their tolerancing back in 1967. I've done a 66 and 65 with the offset bushings and those cars were able to hit 2.5 caster and .5 negative camber. Thanks for the help! you had more caster in the original alignment setting, i figured you were toe out and that's why it was following grooves and felt twitchy. i would try to get -.25-.5 on the camber, negative camber... as much caster as possible and toed in just a bit. do you have any pics of the adjusters on your UCA's ?

Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: Dartslantsix] #2072997 05/14/16 12:01 AM 05/14/16 12:01 AM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 3,577 Long Island, NY USA B BergmanAutoCraft master
BergmanAutoCraft master B Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 3,577 Long Island, NY USA	Looking at your numbers your camber is positive! No wonder the caster is low....As the caster increases the camber goes negative where it should be. Look at your adjustments on your upper arms. The front eccentric should push the arm outward all the way. The rear should wind up in the neutral position, the fat part of eccentric at 6 oclock. This is a rough way of doing a quick setup. If your posted numbers are really whats on the car,its not surprising you arent happy. It still amazes me how many people are clueless with alignments.

Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: BergmanAutoCraft] #2073055 05/14/16 01:47 AM 05/14/16 01:47 AM
Joined: Feb 2010 Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA Kern Dog Striving for excellence
Kern Dog Striving for excellence Joined: Feb 2010 Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA	"It still amazes me how many people are clueless with alignments." The skills to perform a proper alignment on a classic Mopar is not being taught to new techs. The ones with experience with old cars are fading away.

Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: Dartslantsix] #2073106 05/14/16 08:38 AM 05/14/16 08:38 AM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 3,577 Long Island, NY USA B BergmanAutoCraft master
BergmanAutoCraft master B Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 3,577 Long Island, NY USA	I think the problem is people don't understand what the angles mean. This isnt rocket science. We use turn plates, caster/camber gauge and toe bars and do this on a level floor. More time consuming than a real machine but we've never had a problem. 99% of the time not being able to see the thrust hasn't caused us any issues. I've experimented with specs all the way up to 10 deg caster and neg 2 camber using these tools.

Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: Kern Dog] #2073113 05/14/16 09:03 AM 05/14/16 09:03 AM
Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 19,355 north of coder moparx "Butt Crack Bob"
moparx "Butt Crack Bob" Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 19,355 north of coder	Originally Posted By Frankenduster "It still amazes me how many people are clueless with alignments." The skills to perform a proper alignment on a classic Mopar is not being taught to new techs. The ones with experience with old cars are fading away. and i always say that i "have all the skills necessary to align my vehicle and get the steering wheel crooked". that's why i got all the necessary tools to do the work myself. i got tired taking my stuff to the alignment shop only to return numerous times to get it corrected, plus having to pay out $19.99. and that gives you an idea how long ago that was.

Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: Dartslantsix] #2073380 05/14/16 06:08 PM 05/14/16 06:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,302 Nebraska 72Swinger master
72Swinger master Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,302 Nebraska	Another thing is how retarded the specs are for our cars in these new "hi-tech" machines. Basically if you can hit 1 degree in any of the adjustments you're in the green and can tell the customer its in "spec". Mopar to the bone!!!

Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: Dartslantsix] #2073883 05/15/16 03:37 PM 05/15/16 03:37 PM
Joined: May 2007 Posts: 553 Sac, CA, USA N ntstlgl1970 mopar
ntstlgl1970 mopar N Joined: May 2007 Posts: 553 Sac, CA, USA	You can't just "set the toe and let it go"? sarcasm I think the next time I do my alignment, I'll try setting for max caster, then get the camber as even as possible without affecting the caster and use spacers to get the camber needed like someone else mentioned previously. Think I'll do this with the torsion bars out so that adding spacers would be easier. Many of the alignment machines I've used have little or no specs in their databases for cars prior to 76. Last edited by ntstlgl1970; 05/15/16 03:45 PM.

Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: Dartslantsix] #2073995 05/15/16 06:27 PM 05/15/16 06:27 PM
Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,302 Nebraska 72Swinger master
72Swinger master Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,302 Nebraska	Absolutely ^^^^, with our spindles, caster needs to be in the 8-9+ range to get the MOST contact patch with what we have. Then a camber of -1 to -2 can be all thats needed. Mopar to the bone!!!

Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: Dartslantsix] #2076317 05/19/16 03:39 AM 05/19/16 03:39 AM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 3,577 Long Island, NY USA B BergmanAutoCraft master
BergmanAutoCraft master B Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 3,577 Long Island, NY USA	I beg to differ with super high caster. I've experimented with many angles and found that super high caster lifts the inside too much on turn in. Im running 4 degrees caster and 1.5 neg camber this weekend at Optima. Car feels neutral and confident on turn in.

Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: Dartslantsix] #2076450 05/19/16 01:02 PM 05/19/16 01:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2010 Posts: 270 Mountain View, CA 6 68rrunner enthusiast
68rrunner enthusiast 6 Joined: Feb 2010 Posts: 270 Mountain View, CA	I set up and built Tom's Valiant that won The SCCA CAM class in SDR last year, and we run 7-9* of caster on all of our cars.

Re: Can't get enough caster with offset bushings [Re: Dartslantsix] #2076514 05/19/16 02:54 PM 05/19/16 02:54 PM
Joined: Oct 2015 Posts: 43 Santa Fe Springs, CA J Jon @ Hotchkis member
Jon @ Hotchkis member J Joined: Oct 2015 Posts: 43 Santa Fe Springs, CA	In a perfect world you want 1-2* more +caster than the spindle's KPI. This will give the inside tire positive camber when steered, but as a consequence with the scrub radii these cars typically have you do get weight jacking. It is all about finding a happy medium and somewhere around +7-9* caster on these cars is about perfect. OP- I agree that we need to see some pictures of your current setup as something sounds fishy. An at-home alignment is easy enough if you can find some flat level ground. A $100 gauge , some straight edges, a couple tape measures, and some sand and you're good to go. Hotchkis Performance 8633 Sorensen Ave. Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670 Phone: 562-907-7757 x224 Fax: 562-907-7765 Hotchkis Performance East 9075 Highway 152 Mooresville, NC 28115 704-660-3060

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