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Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: pittsburghracer] #2066462
05/03/16 12:30 PM
05/03/16 12:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,043
Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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mopar dave  Offline OP
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Mt Morris Michigan
I think what their doing is getting the bolt stretched more consistent with the others using the torque angle method.
not everyone uses a torque wrench the same way while torqueing bolts. you will get a different stretch if you jerk the wrench too fast vs smooth mid speed. using the angle method you have to be more controlled with your wrench while trying to hit your mark on the angle gauge.

Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: mopar dave] #2066474
05/03/16 01:06 PM
05/03/16 01:06 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 8
Michigan
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MT-Tom Offline
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The science behind the bolts is, bolts are nothing more than a very stiff spring and the spring must be stretched the proper amount to provide a certain amount of clamp load. While most of us grew up with a torque wrench in our hands and many people still rely on it, there are better and more accurate methods that can be used to tighten fasteners. The reason is, torque does not measure stretch, clamping or pre load and only measures the amount of friction that must be overcome to rotate the bolt. The type and amount of lube applied will effect the friction. When you add into the mix the surface of the spotface on the rod, the flange of the bolt and both male and female threads that can change with each tightening, it starts to become more clear as to why straight torque is not the most accurate method for tightening bolts. Over the years there have been rod manufacturers who would tell people to replace the bolts after 5 tightenings. This was not due to the bolts "giving up", it was because the friction level is a moving target and will change so much that an accurate preload could not be achieved by the simple torque method and it was easier (and more profitable) to just sell the customer new bolts.

Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: mopar dave] #2066559
05/03/16 03:26 PM
05/03/16 03:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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madscientist Offline
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Washington
Originally Posted By mopar dave
my rods are brand new. wont need sizing.


You may have to size them to get your clearance where it needs to be.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: MT-Tom] #2066563
05/03/16 03:30 PM
05/03/16 03:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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madscientist Offline
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Washington
Originally Posted By MT-Tom
The science behind the bolts is, bolts are nothing more than a very stiff spring and the spring must be stretched the proper amount to provide a certain amount of clamp load. While most of us grew up with a torque wrench in our hands and many people still rely on it, there are better and more accurate methods that can be used to tighten fasteners. The reason is, torque does not measure stretch, clamping or pre load and only measures the amount of friction that must be overcome to rotate the bolt. The type and amount of lube applied will effect the friction. When you add into the mix the surface of the spotface on the rod, the flange of the bolt and both male and female threads that can change with each tightening, it starts to become more clear as to why straight torque is not the most accurate method for tightening bolts. Over the years there have been rod manufacturers who would tell people to replace the bolts after 5 tightenings. This was not due to the bolts "giving up", it was because the friction level is a moving target and will change so much that an accurate preload could not be achieved by the simple torque method and it was easier (and more profitable) to just sell the customer new bolts.


I heard all this same CRAP about TTY fasteners and how they would revolutionize fastener tech. All it was is a way for OEM's to do it cheaper. I'm with Pittsburgh racer on this. Torque the bolts, measure the bore and size it. Ridiculous.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: madscientist] #2066571
05/03/16 03:47 PM
05/03/16 03:47 PM
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Michigan
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MT-Tom Offline
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Yes, TTY is a way to use a cheaper bolt and take them past the yield point. Cheaper for the OEM, by far not cheaper for those who rebuild them.

Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: mopar dave] #2066633
05/03/16 06:28 PM
05/03/16 06:28 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,867
MI, usa
dvw Offline
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By all rights stretch has to be the most accurate method. Bolts stay in tension by stretch. Is it absolutely necessary? Obviously not, many engines have been built for years without checking stretch. But the most accurate, yes. Time consuming, yes. Heck I've seen plenty of engines assembled with air guns at the dealership, and they ran fine. Your motor, your choice.
Doug

Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: mopar dave] #2066705
05/03/16 08:49 PM
05/03/16 08:49 PM
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Wedge Land
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MBigBlock Offline
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Wedge Land
Back when I had a 120mph in the 1/4 N/A LS1 chev, we were told all the bolts are throw away after one usage. I reused my head bolts 3 times and just torqued to a flat ft/lb spec. Made 540hp with them, removed CNC heads, bolted on stock heads to sell car, used the same bolts, again!

Be weary of manufacturers wanting to sell parts. Not to say everything they tell us is lies, but some of it is a bit far stretched (pun intended)

Last edited by MBigBlock; 05/03/16 08:50 PM.
Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: MBigBlock] #2066741
05/03/16 09:34 PM
05/03/16 09:34 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,318
State of confusion
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Thumperdart Offline
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State of confusion
Hilarious cos my main bolts are out of my 360 from 15 years ago and I use a no name torque wrench and never stretched a one rod bolt...........luck I guess........... whistling


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: Thumperdart] #2066790
05/03/16 10:19 PM
05/03/16 10:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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BradH Offline
Taking time off to work on my car
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
Maybe I is an idiot, but first I would just torque my Beagle rods to the specified 63 #s.

Then I got me a stretch gauge and figured out that 63 #s wasn't even close to the proper stretch. And I also figured out that using a stretch gauge is a big PITA, (although I like the idea of just using it when the rods are in the vice and noting how much torque is required to replicate the stretch during assembly).

So, I bought a new electronic torque / angle wrench and followed the rod manufacturer's instructions for torque + angle.

Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: mopar dave] #2066812
05/03/16 10:43 PM
05/03/16 10:43 PM

C
crabman173
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crabman173
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Fixing something that ain't broke
Lots of folks do it
Lots of folks spend lots of cash doing it
Can they beat your car at the race track??
Nah!
Do they sleep better at night?
Nah! Because they are busy thinking about and fixing other things that are not broken so the moral is...
They are good for the economy!!

I have worked in lots of engine shops of all levels--after you build a life times worth of engines you figure out what is important to making them live and perform and what is Not
The AVERAGE Joe messing around with a new bought angle gauge, rod bolt stretch gauge etc is just going to make a mess--LUBE the heck out of the fasteners with the correct lube as called for by the mfg--use any old torque wrench you can find and use a SMOOTH pull--You are DONE! That bolt will not fail because of anything you did or did not do--Period!
Again I state-- that I have tested hundreds of torque wrenches with very expensive equipment designed for that purpose--many of the cheaper units perform as well or better than very expensive Snap Ons etc I had one shop that used a 1/2 in drive wrench for over 12 years--used it every single day--dropped it once or twice a week--used it in reverse --etc It was as accurate as any I ever tested and it was a $100 unit.
yea yea I know they only measure friction etc yadda yadda--IT WORKS!!!

After hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of engines I can tell you that what you can get away with would simply amaze you and you would be unwilling to believe what junk parts put together by a knowing experienced builder can do on the race track in the hands of a winning driver--what is easier to believe is how poorly some very very expensive and over thought out engines and cars perform in the hands of folks with little experience.
I applaud guys that want to do it well and do it right but if you want a picnic table use the plans from 1950 that make use of 8 equal length boards and a few nails--If you use plans by an "engineer" then plan on a truck load of lumber and a summer to build it with results that are sure to be no better at holding your burger, beer , and bum off the ground.

Last edited by crabman173; 05/03/16 10:44 PM.
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