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Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: 383man] #2064567
04/30/16 09:39 AM
04/30/16 09:39 AM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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I agree. Makes it easier to miss something than just torque the bolt and moving on.

Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: dvw] #2065795
05/02/16 11:36 AM
05/02/16 11:36 AM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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You guys are absolutely right. I used the 30#+60* method and bolt stretch was all over the place. I tried just setting the wrench at 80lbft and stretch was any where from .0055-.007. I also tried 30lbft+50* and that method was the most accurate. I'll call Tom today to get his opinion on this. Thanks

Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: mopar dave] #2065802
05/02/16 11:47 AM
05/02/16 11:47 AM
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Porter67 Offline
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Speed talk has a few pages on the arp 2000 bolts, they can live in such a wide torque spec area because for what we do we are not coming close to the limits of the bolts failure. So x amount of min. stretch works for most things.

Look at the really big hp builds that are living with 2000 series bolts.

I have used a set tq on the wrench and never had a problem, for years now I use the stretch gauge, still with no problems.

Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: Porter67] #2066085
05/02/16 07:04 PM
05/02/16 07:04 PM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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Spoke with Tom Molnar today. He stands behind the torque angle method.. Says if the bolt (7/16-1.600) stretches to .006-.007 its good. The bolts need to be stretched 75% of yield. This bolts yield is .0085. If the bolt over stretches with the 60* angle try 50*. Meature bolts before and after as thats the best you can do.

Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: mopar dave] #2066099
05/02/16 07:17 PM
05/02/16 07:17 PM
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Wichita
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I've put well over 1200 miles on my car since the end of January with probably a dozen dragstrip passes.

I used the angle torque method and no issues so far.

I do limit it to 6,200 rpm, though.

Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: mopar dave] #2066113
05/02/16 08:02 PM
05/02/16 08:02 PM
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Dave, Id use the stretch method if you can. But if I had to id not be afraid of the way Tom is telling you.

His way your going to get varied stretch but within the window.

My old 360 stroker that ive mentioned had the lesser quality eagle/arp bolts and on each refresh I just set the wrench to 63lbs and I had a good long life span with that build.

So there is alot of wiggle room, ya got to be careful on the over stretch deal.

If you do use the stretch deal and if your gauge isnt up to it I will loan you one if you need it.

Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: mopar dave] #2066183
05/02/16 10:22 PM
05/02/16 10:22 PM

C
crabman173
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I have to say----
Most engine shops in the world finally get a rod bolt stretch gauge--they use it a few months then it goes in the bottom drawer and never comes back out--Unless you build Indy 500 or Nascar units all you have to do is lube the bolt threads and under the bolt head and use any old tq wrench you can lay your hands on and it will work out fine --you will never have a rod bolt failure from doing it this way--Folks do some crazy stuff and spend some crazy $$ so they can sleep at night thinking that nothing bad will ever happen--they get there butts beat at the drag strip by guys that know that a Sears or Lowes TQ wrench when used with proper lube and proper technique will get that bolt in the zone of WORKING to do its job---GEEEZ! It ain't that hard to do this--The whole entire deal of buying ASP 2000 Bolts speaks to my point!!!!!!! Those darn bolts could hold the hinge on a door with a frigging Volcano behind it!! SO CAN A PLAIN OLD 8740 bolt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ok if you run 70 lbs boost ya may need some extra care but if you are NA and a rod bolt fails YOU did something wrong!!!
I run Scat $300 I Beams with a 1.400 8740 bolt torqued to 63 ft lbs using ANY wrench I can lay my hands on and it turns over 8800 RPM every week end we take it out-- and I drive it like I could care less if she goes Boom! 9000 in the water is just part of the show gang!Guess what-- she don't go Boom! I DO NOT need ARP2000 bolts and neither do you in 99% of cases
If you are in a class--and want to make an A then answer is stretch gauge and proper lube--and if you want a doctorate degree the torque angle is the path to that grade but...if you race and just want to build an engine so you can do what you really want to do --as in LAY THE WOOD TO IT and WIN!! Then....lube it right and use any wrench using a SMOOTH PULL and there ya have it
I had test equipment and went from shop to shop testing torque wrenches and adjusting them--great living doing not MUCH--turns out that the WAY A GUY used the wrench made more difference than the wrench--get them snug then give one long pull to the click--you are done move on!! JERK it like the idiots in NHRA pits and you are not accurate but..Guess what??? IT will run 300 plus MPH anyway and never fail
I have NEVER had a rod bolt fail--ever! The only ones that have come in my shop that failed were stock bolts with a 1300 gram TRW slug on a stock rod that was turned past 6500 a LOT so.......
You guys worry about things that do not matter and get beat by guys that could care less
Whew! Ok I am done....

Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: mopar dave] #2066244
05/03/16 12:00 AM
05/03/16 12:00 AM
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Utah and Alaska
astjp2 Offline
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iagreeI work on airplanes, and their engine specs are not even as close to being as anal as some on here hope to be. Tim


1941 Taylorcraft
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1994 Wrangler
1998 Wrangler
2008 Kia Rio
2017 Jetta

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Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: astjp2] #2066263
05/03/16 12:20 AM
05/03/16 12:20 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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Not sure but i think air plane engines are low rpm engines.

Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: mopar dave] #2066288
05/03/16 12:41 AM
05/03/16 12:41 AM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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Originally Posted By mopar dave
Not sure but i think air plane engines are low rpm engines.
iagree My 260 HP Lycoming 540 C.I. opposed six cylinder had the governor set at 2700 RPM, that motor was not time limited to that RPM so it could be ran all day long at that RPM. At altitude it would run faster at full throttle between 2200 and 2500 RPM, depending on the outside air temps and crusing altitude so I never ran it more than 20 mintues at WOT throttle at 2700 RPM, it would climb to 16,000 ft in twenty mintues at 2700 RPM from take off at 3300 ft. airport elevation shruggy


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: ] #2066309
05/03/16 01:16 AM
05/03/16 01:16 AM
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West Plains, MO
DrCharles Offline
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Originally Posted By crabman173

I run Scat $300 I Beams with a 1.400 8740 bolt torqued to 63 ft lbs using ANY wrench I can lay my hands on and it turns over 8800 RPM


What do your pistons weigh?

Quote:
every week end we take it out-- and I drive it like I could care less if she goes Boom!


You may not care, but some of us do! I want to build an expensive engine just once and not have it trashed and have to start all over, because a rod bolt let go and it went Boom... shock

Quote:
JERK it like the idiots in NHRA pits and you are not accurate but..Guess what??? IT will run 300 plus MPH anyway and never fail


On the other hand, it only has to last under four seconds and 1000' (once) in that application... whistling


Quote:
I have NEVER had a rod bolt fail--ever! The only ones that have come in my shop that failed were stock bolts with a 1300 gram TRW slug on a stock rod that was turned past 6500 a LOT so.......


That's reassuring, anyway. Thanks for the input wink

Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: mopar dave] #2066317
05/03/16 01:27 AM
05/03/16 01:27 AM
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NW Pa.
KD800X Offline
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This is what I found out today.

I'm running K1 rods so I called K1 today and the tech said I can stretch them however they prefer that I do the Torque Angle method mainly because that's how the rod was torqued when they fish honed it at the factory.
(I had them re-checked at the machine shop and they used T/A also)

I then called ARP after and talked to Al ext. 204,(SUPER HELPFUL) he said they don't use Torque Angle they only use stretch and torque. HOW EVER, K1's ARP rod bolts are specific to K1 so do it how they tell me, especially if they were torqued using the Torque angle method when the rods were finish honed.
He said what ever method you use stick with it from start to finish.

Also it was pretty interesting, he said to make sure to always use the same lube from start to finish, and to use a medium constant speed when pulling the wrench. If you go too slow or bounce you'll get a false number.

Another thing he said was to measure all the bolts before you install them, log the length so when you pull them back out you can re measure them... you don't want them any longer than .00075 - .001 longer than the original length. If they are... Pitch'em

Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: ] #2066318
05/03/16 01:32 AM
05/03/16 01:32 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 42
Wedge Land
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MBigBlock Offline
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Originally Posted By crabman173
I have to say----
Most engine shops in the world finally get a rod bolt stretch gauge--they use it a few months then it goes in the bottom drawer and never comes back out--Unless you build Indy 500 or Nascar units all you have to do is lube the bolt threads and under the bolt head and use any old tq wrench you can lay your hands on and it will work out fine --you will never have a rod bolt failure from doing it this way--Folks do some crazy stuff and spend some crazy $$ so they can sleep at night thinking that nothing bad will ever happen--they get there butts beat at the drag strip by guys that know that a Sears or Lowes TQ wrench when used with proper lube and proper technique will get that bolt in the zone of WORKING to do its job---GEEEZ! It ain't that hard to do this--The whole entire deal of buying ASP 2000 Bolts speaks to my point!!!!!!! Those darn bolts could hold the hinge on a door with a frigging Volcano behind it!! SO CAN A PLAIN OLD 8740 bolt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ok if you run 70 lbs boost ya may need some extra care but if you are NA and a rod bolt fails YOU did something wrong!!!
I run Scat $300 I Beams with a 1.400 8740 bolt torqued to 63 ft lbs using ANY wrench I can lay my hands on and it turns over 8800 RPM every week end we take it out-- and I drive it like I could care less if she goes Boom! 9000 in the water is just part of the show gang!Guess what-- she don't go Boom! I DO NOT need ARP2000 bolts and neither do you in 99% of cases
If you are in a class--and want to make an A then answer is stretch gauge and proper lube--and if you want a doctorate degree the torque angle is the path to that grade but...if you race and just want to build an engine so you can do what you really want to do --as in LAY THE WOOD TO IT and WIN!! Then....lube it right and use any wrench using a SMOOTH PULL and there ya have it
I had test equipment and went from shop to shop testing torque wrenches and adjusting them--great living doing not MUCH--turns out that the WAY A GUY used the wrench made more difference than the wrench--get them snug then give one long pull to the click--you are done move on!! JERK it like the idiots in NHRA pits and you are not accurate but..Guess what??? IT will run 300 plus MPH anyway and never fail
I have NEVER had a rod bolt fail--ever! The only ones that have come in my shop that failed were stock bolts with a 1300 gram TRW slug on a stock rod that was turned past 6500 a LOT so.......
You guys worry about things that do not matter and get beat by guys that could care less
Whew! Ok I am done....


I like your style up

The rod is going to break or a bearing spin because of bad oiling setup before any ARP rod bolt breaks because it wasn't torqued to 0.00001 of proper stretch.. infact I bet many overstretch em.. better to torque to 60-65 ft/lbs, 20/40/60 and be done! At that spec, the bolt aint coming loose and you know you won't egg your rods OR fatigue your bolts!

Last edited by MBigBlock; 05/03/16 01:34 AM.
Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: MBigBlock] #2066347
05/03/16 02:47 AM
05/03/16 02:47 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,043
Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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actually the arp2000 bolt torqued to 63ftlb only stretches .0045". the spec is .006-.0064". torque them to 80ftlb and you'll be close.
one other thing some here might like to know is the 2000 bolts in molnar rods is a molnar spec bolt, cant get it any where but fom molnar. Tom says its superior to arp L19 bolts.

Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: mopar dave] #2066376
05/03/16 08:42 AM
05/03/16 08:42 AM
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NW Pa.
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Dave,

How were your rods torqued when you had them sized? That's how you want to torque them in the motor. If not it can distort the rod.
.
He did tell me that K1 - Oliver and I'm sure Molnar ARP rod bolts are built to the rod mfg. Specs... So torque the bolt how they tell you to.

Give ARP a call, Al extension 204

Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: KD800X] #2066402
05/03/16 10:16 AM
05/03/16 10:16 AM
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Michigan
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ARP will give you the tightening information for their off the shelf bolts but they do not give out or have the proper information for our bolts which are made with different dimensions and thread profile than their normal bolts.

Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: mopar dave] #2066415
05/03/16 10:37 AM
05/03/16 10:37 AM
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Marion, South Carolina [><]
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FWIW...my 572 hemi has Oliver rods, but I've always used the torque angle method to torque them. I built it in 2006 and have freshened it up twice since then. Bottom end just got rings and bearings both times...the bearings could have been reused. Regularly running over 7k rpm, over 800 hp on motor, about 1100 hp on nitrous.


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: mopar dave] #2066422
05/03/16 10:46 AM
05/03/16 10:46 AM
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Porter67 Offline
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Although it does seem a bit odd to some of use the degree method, my nephew does alot on the big cummins and detroits told me its very common and in many cases like a head bolt, how would you measure stretch on a head bolt?

It would be cool to look close at a arp bolt and then a molnar, but this is what comes to mind.... If the current bolts that have been in use in kits dont fail, then why the need, other then possibly marketing and sales for an "improved" or "different" design?

Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: KD800X] #2066446
05/03/16 11:40 AM
05/03/16 11:40 AM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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my rods are brand new. wont need sizing.

Re: stretch method for molnar/arp2000 [Re: Porter67] #2066451
05/03/16 11:49 AM
05/03/16 11:49 AM
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PA.
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I swear some of these companies do this just to mess with your minds. For years we torque rod bolts to a specific number with good results. Then we are told to buy stretch gauges and stretch the bolt to a specific length. Now we are told to go to a specific torque then go X amount of degrees. This to me is the stupidest of all and its being proven by other that the bolts are coming up with different results. I think the problem lies with the JUNK we are now being sold and THEIR quality control. Come-on guys lets get it right. A certain length, diameter, and material bolt should stretch X amount at a given torque.


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