Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 7 of 16 1 2 5 6 7 8 9 15 16
Re: carnage at the dyno [Re: MR_P_BODY] #2023812
03/03/16 02:12 PM
03/03/16 02:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 257
Alberta
4
440_Offroader Offline
enthusiast
440_Offroader  Offline
enthusiast
4

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 257
Alberta
Originally Posted By MR_P_BODY
Originally Posted By 1Fast340
How comon is it that a bearing/oiling isue tries to pul the pin out of a piston?


I cant say that both would even be related .. if the
pin doesnt get oil they tend to seize the piston and
then end up spinning a bearing
wave


So perhaps this was a wrist pin failure? The rod bearing failure being a secondary result?

Re: carnage at the dyno [Re: mopar dave] #2023818
03/03/16 02:15 PM
03/03/16 02:15 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
M
Monte_Smith Offline
master
Monte_Smith  Offline
master
M

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
This engine has an Eagle crank. While I have not compared a SBC and a SBM Mopar crank from Eagle, I would imagine that Eagle uses the same "high speed oiling" arrangement in all their crankshafts, regardless of brand of motor. The way a crank is made, you can move the timing "some" but it isn't a huge amount. So while it may be true that factory Chevy and Mopar cranks may differ in timing, I would think aftermarket cranks are drilled the same. Would be easy to find out........all you have to do is ask them.

BUT........that isn't the problem here. SB Mopars been running for years with factory drilled cranks.

As far as the oil, some need to read up on how multi viscosity oils are rated, tested and really work. The oil in question here would not have taken on the viscosity characteristics of 50W until the oil temp reached 212*. And anybody who has ever drained some HOT, even straight 50 from a motor, knows at that temp, it is not all that thick

Last edited by Monte_Smith; 03/03/16 02:19 PM.
Re: carnage at the dyno [Re: mopar dave] #2023827
03/03/16 02:37 PM
03/03/16 02:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,411
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
I Live Here
Al_Alguire  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,411
Las Vegas
Looks to me like you had a clearance issue, or the crank journal or rod big end was out of round. Don't see a big mystery here, lack of oil film on that rod...


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: carnage at the dyno [Re: mopar dave] #2023830
03/03/16 02:45 PM
03/03/16 02:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,515
So. Burlington, Vt.
F
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here
fast68plymouth  Offline
I Live Here
F

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,515
So. Burlington, Vt.
So, only one rod bearing didn't like the oil? The other bearings look good?


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: carnage at the dyno [Re: mopar dave] #2023845
03/03/16 03:14 PM
03/03/16 03:14 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
M
madscientist Offline
master
madscientist  Offline
master
M

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
Originally Posted By mopar dave
OK . in the past combos I used 20/50 brad Penn,valvoline and 15/50 amsoil with .002 on mains and rods and never had an issue.


The only way to know for sure is to have what you were using tested. Like I said, the oil grading system is very wide. You can buy a 50 that is very close to a 40 or it can be very close to a 60 or anywhere in between.

I tried to find numbers for the oil you were using and I can't. I may call them and see what I can find.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: carnage at the dyno [Re: madscientist] #2023850
03/03/16 03:18 PM
03/03/16 03:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 403
Romulus, MI
GTS340 Offline
mopar
GTS340  Offline
mopar

Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 403
Romulus, MI
125 replies and quicktree hasn't stopped in to bestow his knowledge yet...something is wrong!

Re: carnage at the dyno [Re: Monte_Smith] #2023854
03/03/16 03:20 PM
03/03/16 03:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
M
madscientist Offline
master
madscientist  Offline
master
M

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
This engine has an Eagle crank. While I have not compared a SBC and a SBM Mopar crank from Eagle, I would imagine that Eagle uses the same "high speed oiling" arrangement in all their crankshafts, regardless of brand of motor. The way a crank is made, you can move the timing "some" but it isn't a huge amount. So while it may be true that factory Chevy and Mopar cranks may differ in timing, I would think aftermarket cranks are drilled the same. Would be easy to find out........all you have to do is ask them.

BUT........that isn't the problem here. SB Mopars been running for years with factory drilled cranks.

As far as the oil, some need to read up on how multi viscosity oils are rated, tested and really work. The oil in question here would not have taken on the viscosity characteristics of 50W until the oil temp reached 212*. And anybody who has ever drained some HOT, even straight 50 from a motor, knows at that temp, it is not all that thick


We at least need to use the correct terminology. There is no such thing as a multi viscosity oil. They are multi grade.

Again, the oil timing is way off.that isn't the issue hear, just try to help people learn. As RPM goes up, the more the timing issues show up.

What the oil acts like drawing it is irrelevant. It pumps and resists flow like a 50 or it wouldn't be graded a 50.

EDIT: I have looked at Eagle cranks. And Scat cranks. They have the oil holes in the factory Chrysler location. That means the oil timing is off. If you want to argue oil timing and how critical it is, take it up with David Nickens. I had several long discussions with him. He isn't stupid.

Last edited by madscientist; 03/03/16 03:23 PM.

Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: carnage at the dyno [Re: mopar dave] #2023865
03/03/16 03:35 PM
03/03/16 03:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,443
Kalispell Mt.
H
HotRodDave Offline
I Live Here
HotRodDave  Offline
I Live Here
H

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,443
Kalispell Mt.
A SBC is not an excercise in good oiling to follow, they got some messed up junk coming down from the cam then to the lifters and then the crank gets the left overs but somehow they live for a while, that is why they like to use high volume pumps and such to ensure enough pressure is left over from everything else to keep the crank lubed. Sure a SBM has timing issues but based on the guys like p-body and others and the SBC guys with that crappy oiling set up turning serious RPM it just don't matter. Centrifugal force is going to keep the oil flowing out of the crank toward the rod bearing even when the pressure is blocked for a split second.

I don't think he had a oil quality or viscosity problem, I have seen guys running 20-50 in brand new cars that come with VERY tight clearance and it don't hurt em, I run 0-20 in all my cars anymore and no engine trouble that did not exist when I bought the car. It was something wrong with the machining, out of round, too much taper, twisted crank...


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: carnage at the dyno [Re: mopar dave] #2023871
03/03/16 03:44 PM
03/03/16 03:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
M
Monte_Smith Offline
master
Monte_Smith  Offline
master
M

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
That's simply not true. It IS multi viscosity and that is accomplished by VIIs which stands for "Viscosity Index Improvers". Grades or weights of oil are defined by their viscosity. Multi weight oil HAS to pass both SAE J300 test parameters for which it is advertised to be. In this case the oil has to pass BOTH 15W cold tests and 50W hot tests to be classified as such.

Below is from Bel-Ray



The SAE designation for multi-grade oils includes two viscosity grades; for example, 10W-30 designates a common multi-grade oil. The first number '10W' is the viscosity of the oil at cold temperature and the second number is the viscosity at 100 °C (212 °F). The two numbers used are individually defined by SAE J300 for single-grade oils. Therefore, an oil labeled as 10W-30 must pass the SAE J300 viscosity grade requirement for both 10W and 30, and all limitations placed on the viscosity grades (for example, a 10W-30 oil must fail the J300 requirements at 5W).

Re: carnage at the dyno [Re: HotRodDave] #2023874
03/03/16 03:56 PM
03/03/16 03:56 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
M
Monte_Smith Offline
master
Monte_Smith  Offline
master
M

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Originally Posted By HotRodDave
A SBC is not an excercise in good oiling to follow, they got some messed up junk coming down from the cam then to the lifters and then the crank gets the left overs but somehow they live for a while, that is why they like to use high volume pumps and such to ensure enough pressure is left over from everything else to keep the crank lubed. Sure a SBM has timing issues but based on the guys like p-body and others and the SBC guys with that crappy oiling set up turning serious RPM it just don't matter. Centrifugal force is going to keep the oil flowing out of the crank toward the rod bearing even when the pressure is blocked for a split second.
Wasn't referring to the ENTIRE SBC oiling system, only how the crank is drilled. The crank is drilled to provide crank pin oiling at 60 before "max load" on crank pin.

Re: carnage at the dyno [Re: mopar dave] #2023876
03/03/16 04:01 PM
03/03/16 04:01 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,904
MI, usa
dvw Offline
master
dvw  Offline
master

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,904
MI, usa
What I think not everybody understands about multi-grade is that warm 50wt will flow easier than cold 15wt. But cold 15wt flows easier than cold 50wt, the same is true when theyre warm. You need enough film strength and clearance to prevent metal to metal contact. If parts flex even more clearance is required. The thinner the oil the higher the flow at a given clearance and temperature. More flow equals better cooling of the part. Higher temp equally thinner oil, too thin or hot and you lose load capacity. It's all a balancing act. My theory in this case is either the clearance tightened up or we had lack of flow, providing nothing broke at the onset. The temp and film strength would be the same for the other 7 rods. Maybe after teardown we'll find a obstructed rod feed galley, other rods that are out of round or a spun #5 main? I still like thinner oil and more clearance, but doubt if 50wt or if it had actual .002" clearance caused this failure. My 2 cents
Doug

Re: carnage at the dyno [Re: GTX MATT] #2023878
03/03/16 04:04 PM
03/03/16 04:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,048
Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
master
mopar dave  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,048
Mt Morris Michigan
Amen brother!

Re: carnage at the dyno [Re: Monte_Smith] #2023893
03/03/16 04:24 PM
03/03/16 04:24 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
M
madscientist Offline
master
madscientist  Offline
master
M

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
That's simply not true. It IS multi viscosity and that is accomplished by VIIs which stands for "Viscosity Index Improvers". Grades or weights of oil are defined by their viscosity. Multi weight oil HAS to pass both SAE J300 test parameters for which it is advertised to be. In this case the oil has to pass BOTH 15W cold tests and 50W hot tests to be classified as such.

Below is from Bel-Ray



The SAE designation for multi-grade oils includes two viscosity grades; for example, 10W-30 designates a common multi-grade oil. The first number '10W' is the viscosity of the oil at cold temperature and the second number is the viscosity at 100 °C (212 °F). The two numbers used are individually defined by SAE J300 for single-grade oils. Therefore, an oil labeled as 10W-30 must pass the SAE J300 viscosity grade requirement for both 10W and 30, and all limitations placed on the viscosity grades (for example, a 10W-30 oil must fail the J300 requirements at 5W).






I get this Monte. One time they say viscosity and then they say grade. Viscosity is temperature referenced. Grade is what they are rated at. If you take a 50 and measure it at ambient it will be closer to the winter grade number. But the viscosity is related to temp. At 212* a 50 is a 50. At 240* it's still a 50, but its viscosity is much thinner. Still a 50 though.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: carnage at the dyno [Re: Monte_Smith] #2023896
03/03/16 04:28 PM
03/03/16 04:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
M
madscientist Offline
master
madscientist  Offline
master
M

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Originally Posted By HotRodDave
A SBC is not an excercise in good oiling to follow, they got some messed up junk coming down from the cam then to the lifters and then the crank gets the left overs but somehow they live for a while, that is why they like to use high volume pumps and such to ensure enough pressure is left over from everything else to keep the crank lubed. Sure a SBM has timing issues but based on the guys like p-body and others and the SBC guys with that crappy oiling set up turning serious RPM it just don't matter. Centrifugal force is going to keep the oil flowing out of the crank toward the rod bearing even when the pressure is blocked for a split second.
Wasn't referring to the ENTIRE SBC oiling system, only how the crank is drilled. The crank is drilled to provide crank pin oiling at 60 before "max load" on crank pin.


Exactly, and maybe I wasn't clear enough. Monte says it's 60* degrees where the oil is timed at. The point is at the exact time, the oil hole in the crank had damn well better be lined up with the feed hole in the block so Full oil pressure is going to the rods. On a SBC these two holes are lined up at the right time. On the Chrysler they are not. It's a big deal as the RPM's go up. That is all I am saying.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: carnage at the dyno [Re: HotRodDave] #2023903
03/03/16 04:35 PM
03/03/16 04:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
M
madscientist Offline
master
madscientist  Offline
master
M

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
Originally Posted By HotRodDave
A SBC is not an excercise in good oiling to follow, they got some messed up junk coming down from the cam then to the lifters and then the crank gets the left overs but somehow they live for a while, that is why they like to use high volume pumps and such to ensure enough pressure is left over from everything else to keep the crank lubed. Sure a SBM has timing issues but based on the guys like p-body and others and the SBC guys with that crappy oiling set up turning serious RPM it just don't matter. Centrifugal force is going to keep the oil flowing out of the crank toward the rod bearing even when the pressure is blocked for a split second.

I don't think he had a oil quality or viscosity problem, I have seen guys running 20-50 in brand new cars that come with VERY tight clearance and it don't hurt em, I run 0-20 in all my cars anymore and no engine trouble that did not exist when I bought the car. It was something wrong with the machining, out of round, too much taper, twisted crank...



I'm sorry but you are wrong. I can't say it any nicer than that. If you rely on centrifugal force to oil the rods, you will kick out 'two rods. Usually 3-4 go first.

How many small block molars have you built that made horsepower over 8000 rpm? I have done it. Many say they have. I know I have. I know the results. They are not good. You MUST fix the oil timing issue or it will fail.

I wish I had never mentioned oil timing because it is off topic to the OP. But I felt it was relevant. There are many busted blocks from oil timing issues. The OP didn't have that issue.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: carnage at the dyno [Re: Monte_Smith] #2023910
03/03/16 04:49 PM
03/03/16 04:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,048
Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
master
mopar dave  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,048
Mt Morris Michigan
I know one thing, it ran out of the pan like water.

Re: carnage at the dyno [Re: fast68plymouth] #2023911
03/03/16 04:50 PM
03/03/16 04:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,048
Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
master
mopar dave  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,048
Mt Morris Michigan
I will know sunday when i get it apart. dont have all my tools here.

Re: carnage at the dyno [Re: mopar dave] #2023922
03/03/16 05:16 PM
03/03/16 05:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,443
Kalispell Mt.
H
HotRodDave Offline
I Live Here
HotRodDave  Offline
I Live Here
H

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,443
Kalispell Mt.
Dave did not have a problem turning 9000, he had a problem at a much lower RPM where engines have lived a loooong time without fixing the oil timing issue. My comment about centrifugal force was just speculation on how they live at 6000-7000 RPM.

Don't worry about bringing it up, I was the one who steped in it not you.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: carnage at the dyno [Re: HotRodDave] #2023938
03/03/16 05:38 PM
03/03/16 05:38 PM
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 103
muskegon MI
v cummins Offline
member
v cummins  Offline
member

Joined: May 2014
Posts: 103
muskegon MI
Not a oil prob. part failure or clearance prob.
either way it be junk know. hope you can save as much as you can.

Re: carnage at the dyno [Re: v cummins] #2023957
03/03/16 06:13 PM
03/03/16 06:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,048
Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
master
mopar dave  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,048
Mt Morris Michigan
Me too. I think the block is saveable as long as its not cracked but I will be using a different block next build.

Page 7 of 16 1 2 5 6 7 8 9 15 16






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1