Re: carnage at the dyno
[Re: mopar dave]
#2023267
03/02/16 04:37 PM
03/02/16 04:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,430 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 12,430
Kalispell Mt.
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I think .002 is fine with high quality machine work but the taper side to side, roundness, big end bore... all need to be very acurate to get away with it consistently. If you machine shop can't deliver very high quality machine work than better to have a little extra clearance.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: carnage at the dyno
[Re: mopar dave]
#2023281
03/02/16 04:55 PM
03/02/16 04:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,139 A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,139
A Banana Republic near you.
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joe gibbs xp4 15/50 non synthetic(breakin). like i said last 2 builds had .002 on rods and mains with full groove and using 20/50 amsoil, no issues. i had 100# oil pressure when first fired up, 75 when it got warm and 55 when it let go. Your oil pressure was a little high, especially at idle, I wonder if you had a restriction somewhere? Also rule of thumb for oil pressure is 10psi per 1000 rpm , 55psi at 6000 is a little low especially with that thick oil .... but that could have been the bearing going away at that point ?
running up my post count some more .
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Re: carnage at the dyno
[Re: mopar dave]
#2023301
03/02/16 05:15 PM
03/02/16 05:15 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,208 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,208
PA.
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i'm also second guessing the oil mods as a cause. i have heard the guy that posted those his engine also came apart. not saying thats the cause, but not sure i want to perform those mods on next block. What oil mods did you do Dave and why not try 10-30. I switched over from 20-50 years ago and my engines love it.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: carnage at the dyno
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2023304
03/02/16 05:17 PM
03/02/16 05:17 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,208 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,208
PA.
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You also may want to step up to SPS2000 (ARP)rod bolts. Cheap insurance.
Last edited by pittsburghracer; 03/02/16 05:20 PM.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: carnage at the dyno
[Re: mopar dave]
#2023307
03/02/16 05:20 PM
03/02/16 05:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,155 Tucson, Arizona
clonestocker
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,155
Tucson, Arizona
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yes they were checked at a machine shop. i checked bearing clearance again before assembly. I was always under the impression that when the bolts were changed the rods got resized.
[img] [/img]
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Re: carnage at the dyno
[Re: mopar dave]
#2023308
03/02/16 05:24 PM
03/02/16 05:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,934 NC
440Jim
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 16,934
NC
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yes it was checked and I checked the bearing cleances several times. I was alittle concerned with the rod bearing clearances so I called hughes since that's where I bought the calico coated rod bearing. they were not concerned with .002" said run thinner oil. I used gibbs 15/50 because the mains were .0033. the rod bearing is wadded up and hard to read. I have run coated bearings that tight without any problems, and at higher RPM. I was running 10W-30 oil, but 15W should have been fine. Mine have all been big blocks with full groove main bearings to improve rod oiling.
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Re: carnage at the dyno
[Re: mopar dave]
#2023318
03/02/16 05:43 PM
03/02/16 05:43 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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It does not matter what the first number is when looking at the grade of an oil. I don't remember off the top of my head but the winter grade is checked at 32* and colder as the number goes lower. He was still using a 50 grade oil. I don't know where Gibbs oil is blended at, but if it is on the high side ( so almost a 60) that oil was too thick for that clearance. The spread for any given grade of oil is very wide. Cheap oils run in huge blends can vary in grade from lot to lot. One lot may grade at the top (almost a 60) and the next lot may be on the low side (almost a 40).
There is a reason some oils are $8.00 a quart and some are $24.00. It pays to spend some time researching who these companies are, what base stocks they are using (probably the LEAST important part of any oil...but the company can save $$$$ using a cheaper base stock), what the additive pack is and where they put the oil in reference to grade.
When you start talking about squeezing down clearances and things like that, or using alternative fuels, it pays to do some research. And get on the phone and talk to themes guys. Every oil guy I have ever spoken to has been very frank about the questions I ask.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: carnage at the dyno
[Re: mopar dave]
#2023412
03/02/16 08:54 PM
03/02/16 08:54 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,942 Metro Detroit
OUTLAWD
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,942
Metro Detroit
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Sorry to read this.
It's a shame, I just let a stock bore 360 go for a song because I was tired of looking at it.
Faster, Faster until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death...
71 Swinger - slowly collecting dust/parts 66 Belv. II - just a streetcar 88 Mustang - turbo LS beater
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Re: carnage at the dyno
[Re: mopar dave]
#2023413
03/02/16 08:55 PM
03/02/16 08:55 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
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master
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Posts: 4,457
Washington
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I called Gibbs and told them the combo and bearing clearance and they recommended the xp4 15/50. So that's what I used. I have always used a 20/50 because of all the internal leaks. Lifters being the biggest leak. You can't fault a guy for doing what you are told. I tried to see where that 50 Is supposed to measure at but they don't give it out. Or I just can't find it. I don't think many other oil companies would call out a 50 for those clearances but I could be wrong.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: carnage at the dyno
[Re: mopar dave]
#2023448
03/02/16 09:45 PM
03/02/16 09:45 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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joe gibbs xp4 15/50 non synthetic(breakin). like i said last 2 builds had .002 on rods and mains with full groove and using 20/50 amsoil, no issues. i had 100# oil pressure when first fired up, 75 when it got warm and 55 when it let go. Dave... those pressures are VERY high for those clearances... I have never had over 70# cold and 25-30 hot.. when pressure is high you are reducing the flow.. remember pressure is a restriction in flow... I use the half groove mains and turn higher rpms... but I do use .003 and .003 on my clearances on all my junk... I balance out my oil pressure once I see what it is both hot and cold... but I wouldnt make a dyno pull or a pass with the pressure you stated
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Re: carnage at the dyno
[Re: mopar dave]
#2023460
03/02/16 10:09 PM
03/02/16 10:09 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890 North Alabama
Monte_Smith
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master
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Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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15W/50 is NOT like straight 50W. Straight 50 is like syrup when it's cold. To put it simply, or at least how it was explained to me, was that multi viscosity oil, the first number is basically the Winter or cold viscosity, with lube qualities of the heavier weight when the motor reaches 212*. For the oil to actually get to the 50W viscosity takes the high temps. This is done with "viscosity modifiers". The cold or Winter viscosity number is based on how hard the oil is to pump through a given orifice at low temps and has to meet pumping pressure requirements based on temps and test orifice size. So what does all that mean? Simply put the 15W/50 oil MUST pass SAE J300 standards of a straight SAE15 to be labeled as such, as well as passing the 50W SAE J300 standard at 212* So that said, based on average dyno room temps and his bearing clearance, no way should 15W/50 be too heavy when cold. Factory motors used to run as tight as his and straight 30 was what most everything came with back then and they weren't grabbing bearings, even in extremely cold temps.
I don't know what caused his issue, but I highly doubt it was the viscosity of the oil, the lack of full groove bearings, or similar.
Of all people, the ones at Gibbs, who he called, should know the characteristics of their oil.
Last edited by Monte_Smith; 03/02/16 10:14 PM.
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Re: carnage at the dyno
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#2023462
03/02/16 10:13 PM
03/02/16 10:13 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
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Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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15W/50 is NOT like straight 50W. Straight 50 is like syrup when it's cold. To put it simply, or at least how it was explained to me, was that multi viscosity oil, the first number is basically the Winter or cold viscosity, with lube qualities of the heavier weight when the motor reaches 212*. For the oil to actually get to the 50W viscosity takes the high temps. This is done with "viscosity modifiers". The cold or Winter viscosity number is based on how hard the oil is to pump through a given orifice at low temps and has to meet pumping pressure requirements based on temps and test orifice size. So what does all that mean? Simply put the 15W/50 oil MUST pass SAE J300 standards of a straight SAE15 to be labeled as such, as well as passing the 50W SAE J300 standard at 212* So that said, based on average dyno room temps and his bearing clearance, no way should 15W/50 be too heavy when cold. Factory motors used to run as tight as his and straight 30 was what most everything came with back then and they weren't grabbing bearings, even in extremely cold temps.
I don't know what caused his issue, but I highly doubt it was the viscosity of the oil, the lack of full groove bearings, or similar. I dont care what the viscosity is.. his pressure is HIGH... pressure is a restriction in flow... PERIOD
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Re: carnage at the dyno
[Re: mopar dave]
#2023463
03/02/16 10:17 PM
03/02/16 10:17 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890 North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
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North Alabama
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I understand that......but some were saying the 15W/50 was like 50W when cold and it is NOT. Would you think straight 15W was too thick given his combo?......No and neither would anyone else and that is the SAE standard that 15W/50 oil MUST meet when cold. My point was that is wasn't the oil that caused the problem.
He said he had .002. Well how was that checked? With plasti-gauge or with mics. And if mics were used, was it only checked 90* from the parting line in a torqued rod, or in several places. The rod could have been out of round, or the crank pin had taper or wasn't round. .002 in one spot, doesn't mean it had .002 everywhere. I still think it was just tight for some reason. If you want to run em tight, that's fine, but it better be right everywhere
Last edited by Monte_Smith; 03/02/16 10:24 PM.
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