Re: 440 Source Roller Rocker arms (any good)
[Re: jb500]
#1996253
01/22/16 01:18 PM
01/22/16 01:18 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 202 TN Hoosier
jb500
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 202
TN Hoosier
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"Rocker shafts undersized for roller/needle bearings" ?? Can you elaborate? The shaft needs to be a true .8750 dia (can't recall tolerances) with a hardness in the upper 50's/lower 60's. The reason is to distribute the load evenly to all the needles (no slop) and the hardness is needed to prevent the rollers from digging into the shaft. I found out all this info after the needles in my 440S rockers let go. Stock OEM style shafts were supplied in my kit. To the OP: Remember....cheap parts cost less up front, but twice as much when they fail and even more to clean up the mess. Don't skimp on the rockers. Looked up NSK specs for J-146 bearings (the type listed as being used) and the tolerances are +0.000/-0.0005 on shaft diameter. My theory on the cage failures are both due to small shafts and lack of hardness. Undersized lets the needles in the 4-8 o'clock position concentrate the load on the shaft. And with the shaft being softer the needles begin to develop a groove and any side to side movement causes the needle to catch the edge. The drawn cups are no match for that type of force and then you get confetti. If 440S rockers used shafts from Harland Sharp (or made to bearing specs), they may live well into the sunset. However, that is a science experiment that I will never make.
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Re: 440 Source Roller Rocker arms (any good)
[Re: batt2rm]
#1996427
01/22/16 05:41 PM
01/22/16 05:41 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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If you look at the pics posted above you can see why the needle bearing are junk. They have no bearing area. They are not even the width of the rocker.
And then there is the pesky problem of unit loading. Even if the needle bearings were the same width as the body of the rocker, you only have a very small area of contact between the bearing and the shaft. The fact that we HOPE the bearing rotates is of little consequence. Once you flat spot a bearing or the shaft, you are done, over.
And then there is the issue of of valve lash. On a HFT or HR there is no real lash in the system. With SFT or SR lifters there is a running lash. Think about a .020 run the pushrod has at the rocker! Most cams lash a bit looser than that. Now take that beating of the pushrod on the rocker (and then it is transferred to the bearing) and mutiply it by whatever RPM you want, and consider the destruction. At a 2500RPM cruise, you are just hammering the bearing to death. What about 5000 RPM? Or 7500 RPM? Or, if you have the good sense not to but do it any way, 8500 RPM? Failure is the only option.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: 440 Source Roller Rocker arms (any good)
[Re: batt2rm]
#1996588
01/22/16 09:21 PM
01/22/16 09:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,335 Park Forest, IL
slantzilla
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,335
Park Forest, IL
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The original idea to roller bearings was so you could restrict oil to the top end of your race motor and keep more oil in the bottom end where it's needed. It was a race only thing that has migrated to the street.
I have 2 sets of rollers, both are bushed.
"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
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Re: 440 Source Roller Rocker arms (any good)
[Re: batt2rm]
#2003376
02/01/16 01:56 PM
02/01/16 01:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,923 Athens, Greece
Pyper70
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,923
Athens, Greece
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I bought the Source Rockers....similar to the CATs...I think I paid 300 for them. I was ready to install them and one too many people had issues on here and many were giving me warnings on the installation of them. I decided to sell them to the tune of 150 bucks and invest in Harlands. Guys over at Competition Wedge hooked me up with a good price, specifically set up for my Edelbrocks. Didn't have to do anything, they were ready to install with rockers and shafts right out of the shrink wrap. Took me an afternoon, got them adjusted...Selling point for me (I think it was Mr. Peabody but I could be mistaken) has had his one Harland set one all of his motors since 1992. Mine have been on since 2011 and I have not had one issue with them. I think I have a collapsed lifter on my #7 but thats a CompCams issue not a Harland.
Family owned 1969 Charger R/T DualQuad 440/727/GVO/3.55s
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Re: 440 Source Roller Rocker arms (any good)
[Re: Dragula]
#2003773
02/01/16 10:22 PM
02/01/16 10:22 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,612 Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,612
Rittman Ohio
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I don't know if Mancini still sells them or not but they offered a Harlan Sharp rocker with a bushing instead of rollers. If they had them when I was building my 493 I would have bought them. I have about $550 in my Iskys with shafts and new hardware from RAS I would not run rollers on a street engine(although I know guys that do and have for years) Just my personal preference Less things in movement less things to go wrong. Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy 493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow 5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box Dana 60
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Re: 440 Source Roller Rocker arms (any good)
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#2003813
02/01/16 11:11 PM
02/01/16 11:11 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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I don't know if Mancini still sells them or not but they offered a Harlan Sharp rocker with a bushing instead of rollers. If they had them when I was building my 493 I would have bought them. I have about $550 in my Iskys with shafts and new hardware from RAS I would not run rollers on a street engine(although I know guys that do and have for years) Just my personal preference Less things in movement less things to go wrong. Gus The guys at RAS (or RAU as they now call it) are AWESOME. It might be expensive but I will NEVER EVER run a rocker with bearings on the shaft. Especially since RAS does what it does.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: 440 Source Roller Rocker arms (any good)
[Re: Supercuda]
#2003854
02/01/16 11:59 PM
02/01/16 11:59 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319 Puyallup, WA
StealthWedge67
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
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NEVER PUT NEEDLE BEARINGS ON A RECIPROCATING SHAFT. EVER. Best answer yet. I like this as well. I run what most would call cheap rockers, but I bought them because they were bronze bushed with roller tips. I just don't like the idea of needle bearings up there, seems unnecessary. Maybe on a race motor that's gonna be torn down and looked at regularly. But for a street motor, stick with as few potential hazards as possible. Also, I see a lot of aluminum rocker failure stories, even high dollar ones. Very seldom have I seen a steel rocker fail (just my personal experience).
LemonWedge - Street heavy / Strip ready - 11.07 @ 120
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Re: 440 Source Roller Rocker arms (any good)
[Re: batt2rm]
#2003973
02/02/16 03:55 AM
02/02/16 03:55 AM
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Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,096 Australia
ozymaxwedge
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,096
Australia
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I would not use needle bearing rockers ever again, I have had one fail and dump needles though my engine and even sucked one through the pick up and into the pump. That snaps the oil pump drive but the dissy keeps on spinning. I use Hughes roller rockers.
1963 Plymouth Max Wedge 1971 Barracuda
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Re: 440 Source Roller Rocker arms (any good)
[Re: dogdays]
#2004128
02/02/16 02:46 PM
02/02/16 02:46 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,274 s.w.fl
bonefish
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,274
s.w.fl
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I had the same thought.
Then I thought, if the bearings press in, they can press out. Then bushing pressed in and reamed to size. You could probably do it in your shop if you had the tooling.
R. that's what I was thinkin.but ya never know.i,d like to here from someone whos done it.it seems like it would have to be a pretty thick bushing.
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Re: 440 Source Roller Rocker arms (any good)
[Re: batt2rm]
#2004134
02/02/16 02:52 PM
02/02/16 02:52 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943 San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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Harland Sharp rockers are of good quality, but they're a little pricey. If you decide to go with the Harland Sharps, be sure to check the rockers and the shafts for metal shavings before you install them.
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: 440 Source Roller Rocker arms (any good)
[Re: 1968RR]
#2004795
02/03/16 02:07 PM
02/03/16 02:07 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,155 Bristol, CT
RalphsRapidTrnst
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,155
Bristol, CT
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Harland Sharp rockers are of good quality, but they're a little pricey. If you decide to go with the Harland Sharps, be sure to check the rockers and the shafts for metal shavings before you install them. 6 builds all with Harland Sharpes, no issues EVER! One has over 2500 passes on it, no issues. Love them, buy them once and your done.
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