440 Source Roller Rocker arms (any good)

I was wonder if there is feedback out there on the 440 source roller rockers. Was thinking about using them on a set of Edelbrock victor heads I have. I built a 440/507 stroker motor that will see 95% street driving. Or do you recommend another brand that is comparable in price. Total will be about $400 for rockers,shafts, hold down kit and shims.
Thanks.

The motor has a hydraulic roller comp cam. Pretty mild for the 507.

I had a set on my 440 for about three years. The quality seemed OK and I didn't have any issues with them. However, after reading a few first-hand accounts of them failing over on the Unlawfl Race & Engine Tech board, I got a little worried and ended up buying a set of Harland Sharps. You may want to post on the Unlawfl board and get some more feedback.
Good luck.

I have a low milage set of source rockers on source shafts with their hold downs I just took off my stroker 505 as I wanted to go the crane route so they would fit under my stock valve covers. They worked great for me for the couple thousand street miles I used them. PM me if you are interested in a very nice used set cheaper than new as I would do $175 for it all plus the shipping. Thanks

I have seen a few guys with mild engines run them and be ok but I have also seen some on engines built more and give trouble. My brother has a car in garage right now that ate up the roller bearing in one rocker. Course he has not determined what caused the bearing to go bad. Ron

I would bet it is because the rocker shafts are undersized for roller/needle bearings.

"Rocker shafts undersized for roller/needle bearings" ?? Can you elaborate?

The shaft needs to be a true .8750 dia (can't recall tolerances) with a hardness in the upper 50's/lower 60's. The reason is to distribute the load evenly to all the needles (no slop) and the hardness is needed to prevent the rollers from digging into the shaft.

I found out all this info after the needles in my 440S rockers let go. Stock OEM style shafts were supplied in my kit.

To the OP: Remember....cheap parts cost less up front, but twice as much when they fail and even more to clean up the mess. Don't skimp on the rockers.

My experience with the 440 Source roller rockers dates back a couple of years. I removed the rockers and shafts after less than 1000 street miles for a cam change. Both shafts were already galled. I called 440 Source and the women I talked to wasn't interested in hearing my problem. I changed to Hughes stuff with no further problems. Any manufacturer can have problems with bad parts from time to time. I was more annoyed by the lack of customer service than the defective parts.

I have heard of a few of the sets letting go from members in the race section. However IIRC, they were running cams with heavy spring pressures. I wouldn't use them with a valve spring above 350lb. Crane Gold rockers are not too badly priced. Some deals from time to time on the old isky ductile irons.

Bad place to gamble to save a few $...
Valve train components do an incredible task... Use quality proven parts..
IMHO...
Why risk an engine....

Just my $0.02....

NEVER PUT NEEDLE BEARINGS ON A RECIPROCATING SHAFT. EVER.

Why would you want to copy the sorry crap the chevy guys had to use?

Find a rocker that has no needle bearings on the shaft.

I have a set of Sources" offset intake rockers (& regular ex) complete rocker setup but still on the shelf (451 build w super stealth heads)

Best answer yet.

I hate '2nd hand stories' of 'my buddy...'

But, I saw the damage first hand, does that count?

They failed. After not many miles. Maybe 1500? Motor was fairly mild too

I agree that its not good to scimp on valvetrain parts. I really like my Hughes rockers and shafts I use. They are only roller tipped rockers no needle bearings on the shaft and they have held up very good for me. With the more horror stories about the Source roller rockers I would use the ductile iron Crane or Isky rockers first as I used them for many years on some of my older builds and always had good luck with them. Ron

I just checked my Source offset rockers & they do have needle bearings on each end of the rocker arm. I will go light on the spring psi & keep an eye on em. thanks for the heads up as I never woulda suspicioned em

Wow getting some great help here guys, thanks! I guess I will look at the hughes rockers.

Comparison.

From what I've seen, most of the cheapie asian rockers have the rollers on the shafts where the more expensive ones have bushings. I wonder if the roller ones are that much cheaper to manufacture?

Using the above picture, look at the spacing between the roller bearings on the top rocker. Now look at the spacing between the roller bearings on this attached picture. I have read that when going to a roller rocker, the more bearing count the better for the load.
I have also read that when purchasing a roller bearing rocker, you need to purchase the shaft that is compatible with that bearing. As mentioned previously, the tolerances on the shaft must be held tighter on a roller bearing rocker.

I have seen "new" roller rockers for sale without shafts. They say to use existing shafts or can be used on stock shafts. This would scare me away from purchasing that rocker set. If I was to purchase a roller rocker set, I would want the shafts included.

Good thread!!

Looked up NSK specs for J-146 bearings (the type listed as being used) and the tolerances are +0.000/-0.0005 on shaft diameter. My theory on the cage failures are both due to small shafts and lack of hardness. Undersized lets the needles in the 4-8 o'clock position concentrate the load on the shaft. And with the shaft being softer the needles begin to develop a groove and any side to side movement causes the needle to catch the edge. The drawn cups are no match for that type of force and then you get confetti.

If 440S rockers used shafts from Harland Sharp (or made to bearing specs), they may live well into the sunset. However, that is a science experiment that I will never make.

The shift from needle/roller bearings to bushings on aftermarket rocker arms has been going on for a while.

The way I see it, to the average car guy a ball bearing is better than a journal bearing (bushing). Rolling, not sliding, right? When I give tours in our hydro plant that's one of the first areas of discussion because most assume rolling element bearings are better.

SO, when aftermarket rockers moved from Isky and Crane cast rockers, the tendency was to go straight to the rolling element bearing. It has taken decades for aftermarket designers and manufacturers to be convinced that the bushing is better for this application, and to dare to put it on the market where they had to convince the consumer that the bushing was a better way.

So !surprise! now the consumer is starting to ask, "Why are the manufacturers using those crappy needle bearings when everyone knows bushings are better?" 15 years ago they couldn't have sold them.

R.

If you look at the pics posted above you can see why the needle bearing are junk. They have no bearing area. They are not even the width of the rocker.

And then there is the pesky problem of unit loading. Even if the needle bearings were the same width as the body of the rocker, you only have a very small area of contact between the bearing and the shaft. The fact that we HOPE the bearing rotates is of little consequence. Once you flat spot a bearing or the shaft, you are done, over.

And then there is the issue of of valve lash. On a HFT or HR there is no real lash in the system. With SFT or SR lifters there is a running lash. Think about a .020 run the pushrod has at the rocker! Most cams lash a bit looser than that. Now take that beating of the pushrod on the rocker (and then it is transferred to the bearing) and mutiply it by whatever RPM you want, and consider the destruction. At a 2500RPM cruise, you are just hammering the bearing to death. What about 5000 RPM? Or 7500 RPM? Or, if you have the good sense not to but do it any way, 8500 RPM? Failure is the only option.

Here is Jesel's roller bearing for reference.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/jes-brg-20610?seid=srese1&gclid=CN2W87-jvsoCFQmOaQod9gYI7Q

Here is T&D's roller bearing for reference.
http://autoplicity.com/1448371-td-machin...CFQaraQodj7ED1Q

The original idea to roller bearings was so you could restrict oil to the top end of your race motor and keep more oil in the bottom end where it's needed. It was a race only thing that has migrated to the street.

I have 2 sets of rollers, both are bushed.

I bought the Source Rockers....similar to the CATs...I think I paid 300 for them. I was ready to install them and one too many people had issues on here and many were giving me warnings on the installation of them. I decided to sell them to the tune of 150 bucks and invest in Harlands. Guys over at Competition Wedge hooked me up with a good price, specifically set up for my Edelbrocks. Didn't have to do anything, they were ready to install with rockers and shafts right out of the shrink wrap. Took me an afternoon, got them adjusted...Selling point for me (I think it was Mr. Peabody but I could be mistaken) has had his one Harland set one all of his motors since 1992. Mine have been on since 2011 and I have not had one issue with them. I think I have a collapsed lifter on my #7 but thats a CompCams issue not a Harland.

If anyone knows where to get the internal roller bearings, I could use two pairs of roller bearings for mine asap....I pressed the bad ones out, and need some replacements...Rockers are fine...Probably my bad as I pinched a shim and everything shifted slightly.

I don't know if Mancini still sells them or not but they offered a Harlan Sharp rocker with a bushing instead of rollers. If they had them when I was building my 493 I would have bought them. I have about $550 in my Iskys with shafts and new hardware from RAS
I would not run rollers on a street engine(although I know guys that do and have for years) Just my personal preference Less things in movement less things to go wrong.

Gus

The guys at RAS (or RAU as they now call it) are AWESOME. It might be expensive but I will NEVER EVER run a rocker with bearings on the shaft. Especially since RAS does what it does.

I like this as well. I run what most would call cheap rockers, but I bought them because they were bronze bushed with roller tips. I just don't like the idea of needle bearings up there, seems unnecessary. Maybe on a race motor that's gonna be torn down and looked at regularly. But for a street motor, stick with as few potential hazards as possible. Also, I see a lot of aluminum rocker failure stories, even high dollar ones. Very seldom have I seen a steel rocker fail (just my personal experience).

JUNK! I put them on a Stock Appearing build they last two 5500 RPM shifts and spit the rollers on two rockers. JUNK! Harland Sharpe the only way to go.

I would not use needle bearing rockers ever again, I have had one fail and dump needles though my engine and even sucked one through the pick up and into the pump. That snaps the oil pump drive but the dissy keeps on spinning.
I use Hughes roller rockers.

has anyone taken a roller bearing rocker and had it bushed?you guys are makin me nervous.

I had the same thought.

Then I thought, if the bearings press in, they can press out. Then bushing pressed in and reamed to size. You could probably do it in your shop if you had the tooling.

R.

that's what I was thinkin.but ya never know.i,d like to here from someone whos done it.it seems like it would have to be a pretty thick bushing.

Harland Sharp rockers are of good quality, but they're a little pricey. If you decide to go with the Harland Sharps, be sure to check the rockers and the shafts for metal shavings before you install them.

The pwr stainless are around that price (400ish) and are bushed, come with shafts, shims, spacers, hold down hardware and are available in 1.5,1.6 & 1.7 ratio's

Search on here for rocker geometry if you want a headache

6 builds all with Harland Sharpes, no issues EVER! One has over 2500 passes on it, no issues. Love them, buy them once and your done.

Ok here is my take, we all use china parts like it or not in every day use and building but we just need to weed out what works and what dont like the snout breaking eagle cast crank.

Sooooo...... This is just info, you decide.

PRW started to phase out there al roller rockers in favor of there bushed SS units a while back so sooner or later these will be a thing of the past.

Now for the bearing a BA146..... look at the specs, not really all that bad. And thats what these are based on. And look at the packaging they can come in.

http://wxabsbearing.en.alibaba.com/product/1804738882-220268319/BAM146_BAM148_inch_size_iko_needle_roller_bearing_BA146_BA148.html#!

IIRC I would have to goto the shop for the maker but the HS bearing is a direct interchange with the BA146 with I think 2 needles less then the HS based number that will interchange.

You can buy HS needle bearing and use in these.

So since the close out of this type ending soon I got a few sets for less then $150 a pop sealed in the package. So that means putting on the QC hat and burning up like 4 hours a set because the china man does zero in that area.

It also means test running these on a bench motor.

The shafts in the kit is .844.

Since the needle bearings and al both have a service life its not the best setup for the street, or if so limited use.

So where do they fit in? The geometry of these suck on alot of heads but put import rockers on an import head casting and you might be surprised at the fit when compared to others.

With a small spring like I use a K-800 at under #600 open on a .700 lift solid up to 7k Ive had zero issues. And thats my street (cough) car that cant risk being stuck on the road.

I do have HS on my bracket car simply because I had them, but its mild.

All this really doesnt mean dick, just info on how some things can work and as well not work in many cases.

BR3 IIRC had posted these are all the same and they are clearly not from a out of the box quality standpoint, doing the QC work 4 sets became 3 sets and some spares mainly do to issues found in the machining of the bodies themselves (chinamans second shift must be blind guy) so vs like a HS system from the box that all checks out one can narrow the failures down to the actual body itself. But here again who wants to buy a couple sets to make one ok one?

Yes, too many things are made in China...
China has the know-how/capability to build good quality components....
The primary issues when purchasing from China are:
1. China has few natural resources, that why they import tons & tons of recycable material. And China's nature is to use the cheapest material available.
2. Though China manufactures a wide variety of products, many, many buyers have no on-site auditing quality control staff. The buyer doesn't find out about the poor qualty until the shipment arrives, then too late and no leverage..

We have made over 35 sourcing trips to China, and have purchased well >$350 million of products for a wide variety of clients and products There are no short-cuts, the purchase decision is made after the submission of approval samples, but then on-site monitoring/auditting is required to validate the product's quality. Our standard procedure was to have 10 random samples pulled from the mass production lot, air shipped to the USA, we would totally take the samples apart check specs/tolerances and if OK the shipment was released and payment made.

Just my $0.02...

One thing to add is the building down in quality that sometimes occurs. I read something a month or two ago by someone who had experience, maybe it was on this board? Anyway he wrote about how quality didn't go up as production went along, it could go down as the management decided to use lower quality materials or components to increase profits.

On the other hand, one thing the Chinese may be doing better than the US is, when they find a really bad bit of corporate malfeasance, they actually shoot the executives.

R.

Yeah....

Given the visible wear I'd say this failure was due to something else, not the rocker. That could have been a Harland Sharp rocker and the same thing would have happened to it.

I disagree, it looks like that rocker hole is on a slight angle or the needle bearing was installed cock slightly so the bearing end rub against the bottom part of the bearing end, something hard enough to wear into, eat into it, causing that failure

maybe it's just me, but i like bushed rockers better.
they might not extract the last horse power, but i don't like little needle bearings and ground up cage material floating around inside the engine.

Interesting points. If you look at extreme high speed shafting, you will typically find a sleeve (bushing) style bearing. The ball/needle rotational speed is just to high for a rolling contact bearing. At least that's how it was explained to me by a Sundyne engineer.

bearings are for rotating [spinning in a 360 degree circle] parts, bushings are more suited for parts that go in a "back and forth" motion.
my reasoning is that the bearings will wear evenly, as they will spin their complete diameter over their lifetime, therefore lasting longer than if they just went "back and forth", wearing on only part of their diameter. [and retaining race or part] think about a u-joint that has no grease, and the brinnilining that takes place on the cross, which is those little "lumps" or lines that are formed by the needles not rotating their complete diameter on the joint cross.
just my opinion. your mileage will vary.

GOOD rockers w/ bearings have very good service life. I had a set of Harland Sharps on a 440 that were bought new in the mid 1990s and had been on solid roller cams all their life. Never had an issue w/ the bearings. Had to replace two due to flaking on the roller tip, but that's it.
I know of many others w/ the same experience as mine.
I'm not arguing for or against bushings...just saying the good bearings work very well.
If you buy cheap stuff, you have to expect failures.

Why does Harland Sharp and Jesal do that ?
I've assemble and built hundreds of motors with Harland Sharp needle bearing rocker arm kits with no issues ever
I have also learned the hard way to not put that type of rocker arms, Chineze or Harland Sharps, on stock rocker shafts, they will eat those shafts up and spread the metal chips through out the motor ruining it

Yup, hardened shafts are the thing for HP use or needle bearings.
HS used to make bushed rockers, and I would think still can.
I've run HS needle & bushed style on various engines, and never had a problem.
A couple were hot street BBs (1 bushed, 1 needle), one a 368" LA drag motor that saw 7500-8000 RPM (needle).

Years ago at a PRI show, I picked up a Chinese needle roller rocker, and worked the pivots.
Felt like they'd put sand in the bearings...
Not a good place to save money, IMO.

Rocker arms are maybe the worst possible place to try to save money. If you could buy roller lifters for half the price of good ones I wouldn't buy them either for the same reasons.

Check out Mancini's rollers. They are made by harland sharp and the only difference I can see is no bearing on the pivot. I wouldnt skimp too much on rockers unless your running a relatively low lift cam. They take too much abuse for a low quality part to handle and when they go they can take out a lot of stuff.
https://www.manciniracing.com/ben15alro.html

Define low lift

Folks should run the info on the bearing inserts and cross for replacement options. If like many china rockers they are a universal size and the as delivered can be upgraded.

0.500"?

That's about where I put it too. But you never know what people are thinking.